Wednesday, February 18, 2009

If X = Modernism, Then What is Postmodernism?


Let's say that X equals modernism. It's a pretty simple equation until we ask what modernism is. One way to look at it is through the Freudian notion that made its way into surrealism that it is about breaking every taboo. Recently on the internet a documentary by Bertrand Tavernier surfaced. It is a lengthy interview with the famous surrealist Philippe Soupault. Part of the interview can be found through the famous magazine Exquisite Corpse, run by Romanian-American novelist and poet Andrei Codrescu:

http://www.corpse.org/

Scroll down a bit, it's on the front page, to the left. I wrote the introduction to it.

Other parts of the documentary can be found here:

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/Philippe%2BSoupault/video/x3b6ys_soupault-le-surrealisme-partie-1_creation

For those who can't understand French, the basic idea is that Soupault, who was 85 at the time of the interview (he's now been dead for close to twenty years), is being interviewed by Jean Aurenche, who is a screenwriter with sixty years of film credits in French film-making. Aurenche opens the interview by asking Soupault, what was Surrealism?

Soupault responds that after 4 years of butchery in the trenches of WWI they demanded to know what mankind is at bottom, and wanted to unravel every taboo in order to find out. This in essence was one aspect of the modernist investigation. "Pour voir ce qui est au fond de l'homme" it was necessary to break every taboo. Part of this comes out of Rimbaud and Lautreamont, but the surrealists found other precursors in Sade, and Freud. Freud's Totem and Taboo investigated the notion of taboo in so-called primitive societies.

The surrealists didn't in fact rupture all taboos. So far as I know, only one of them (Rene Crevel) was a homosexual. None of them broke the incest taboo (again, insofar as I know). And when Andre Breton met Freud, Freud told him that taboos were the basis of civilization itself, and that to break them was not the best idea, and he told Breton that he had misread his work.

Breton ignored this, and continued to break taboos. Part of this meant that they came to honor criminals, even serial killers, as proto-surrealists. Some of the surrealists experimented with mind-altering drugs.

If modernism is therefore about the breaking of taboos, is modernism merely Satanism?

Can we make this equation? Modernism = Satanism?

If that's the case, what is postmodernism? Could it be considered a return to Christianity?

At the end of his life, Andre Breton argues that they had succeeded in breaking all the taboos, and now there was nothing left to break, so he thought it was necessary to begin to restore order, but he never said on what basis that could be done. It's a lot easier to tear down, than it is to build up.

Meanwhile, modernism had gone out in many different directions. Under Marxism the idea was to destroy the upper classes, which had acted as an obstacle to the desires of the masses.

This then spread so that feminists under Simone de Beauvoir decided that men had acted as an obstacle to women, so it was necessary to destroy the stranglehold that men had had on society's resources. We still see this simple call to action everywhere within feminism, including now the notion that it is a good idea to commit adultery, and for women to rid themselves of children (Simone de Beauvoir had no children), as well as in more positive instances like Title IX.

The idea spread further such that it was necessary for minorities to break the stranglehold that whites had had on culture. The NAACP was one form of this, the Black Panthers another. Theorists of post-colonialism jumped in. Some of them want reparations for their centuries of oppression.

Then there was Queer Theory, which meant that gays had to break the stranglehold that straight men and women had had on culture.

The American Indian Movement, Chicanas, and many others jumped in. The notion was the same: break the stranglehold that so and so had on the culture, and destroy any and all taboos.

In the Soupault video, we see him walking around Paris, now in his mid-80s, talking about the heroic early days of the surrealists, in which they experimented with dream states, and discovered the Gustave Moreau museum (we see Soupault actually inside the Moreau museum!). Moreau had been an academic painter who secretly painted wild lush fantasies of bizarre orgies and fights on enormous canvases, releasing the libido to every last incarnation.

To some extent, one can see all this destruction of oppression as a good thing. It's good for the arts to be able to explore what is at the bottom of humanity. Victorian Society had been somewhat oppressive. Certainly white society had been repressive. And no doubt the superego of Freud's day could have used a holiday.

Early in my career as a writer, I was totally involved in the destruction of every last taboo. Andrei Codrescu's journal Exquisite Corpse was my first big collaboration, and it was almost a pirate ship. I wrote for almost every issue in the first decade or so of its appearance, and later published a book on Codrescu's work (the only book thus far, but I hope it will inspire the efforts of further investigators, as it's a fascinating body of work, torn as it is, and as I am, between the need for taboos, and the need for freedom).

But what if the modernist notion of destroying all taboos has been accomplished? What if, now, we wish to put a few LAWS back into place? What if for example we decide that at the very least child molesting is a bad idea, and incest is not best? What if we even think that certain words, such as the n word, should be banned, and what if we wish the f word was less used in public space? What if we think that people shouldn't expose themselves where children might see them. What if we believe that murder is basically wrong, and stealing is wrong, and telling lies about people are wrong? What if we want in fact the return of the Ten Commandments as a return to some basic norms that will allow societies to cohere rather than to be torn apart by rampart desire? What if we believe that the police are necessary, and that moms and dads are necessary, and that rules are necessary?

Then what do we do?

Perhaps we start a blog called Lutheran Surrealism, and explore this idea with as many intelligent people as we can get aboard.

And what if we bring up certain schisms within the practice of the left, to show how aberrant it's all become, and yet are not quite ready to march arm in arm with the far right of evangelical Calvinism?

The topic of the day that we are fascinated with is the recent law case of Jonathan Lopez versus Professor John Matteson at the Los Angeles City College. Lopez is apparently an evangelical who in a public speech class cited the Bible twice in his opposition to gay marriage. The professor, John Matteson, exploded in fury, calling the student a "fascist bastard" and tried to have him expelled from the college. There is more here, in the LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-me-speech16-2009feb16,0,6896300.story

Is a "fascist bastard" anyone who attempts to use the Bible to explore things we shouldn't do? Are we then, by Matteson's standards, "fascist bastards"? Homosexuality isn't mentioned in the Ten Commandments. It's mentioned more than once (in a negative sense) by St. Paul, and is also on a list of shalt-nots in Leviticus. But incest also isn't mentioned in the Ten Commandments, and child molesting isn't. Does that make them right? Where do we look for a source of moral authority?

If modernism was Satanism, we really can't look there.

We could look to Marxism, and to its freeing of previously oppressed populations, but then criminals, too, could argue that they have been oppressed. And isn't Marxism an aspect of modernism?

The left-handed could argue that they've been repressed, and ask for driving on all the streets to be reversed, at least for them (I'm left-handed!). Modernism is a gas. It was a gas. But the term gas apparently originally stemmed from chaos.

To a great degree we like chaos and thrive on it, and we do think there is such a thing as too much order. Perhaps the notion of freedom of speech at the very minimum should be respected so that all parties can be heard and we can keep these issues open as long as possible until we come to a consensus in law. That's at least the ongoing basis of Lutheran Surrealism. Let's talk. Let's try not to have the last word.

Right now, I see some fascinating ramifications of the Los Angeles City College case. One is that Lopez is a conservative Christian, which pits him against the Marxist elite who are now running most college humanities programs. But Lopez (guessing from the last name) is also likely to be a Hispanic. This means that two kinds of oppression must duke it out for bottom-dog status (this is what's often been used to determine who is right in PC cases).

In addition, with Proposition 8 looming in the background to the case, and with black America voting Democrat but against gay marriage, a rift as big as the San Andreas Fault appears to be opening in the left. Will big portions of the left surge to the right? Will new parties be formed? How will this play out?

Modernism's simple prescription of breaking all taboos has now created as many problems as it solved. All those problems are now coming to a head.

To me, the professor himself is a "fascist bastard" for not letting the student speak. In a multicultural society, we have to listen to one another, especially across deeply held positions. It's difficult, and is frightening. But I think placing taboos on freedom of speech is still wrong, and it's one way in which I am still a modernist, though a modernist with qualms. Basically, I follow the law. You can speak, but you can't threaten. You can speak, but it's better not to use swear words (I put my kids in their rooms if they use bad words). I don't even want my kids to say, "Oh my God!" I want them to say, "Oh my gosh!" Because I think they should be well away from breaking any norms.

Personally, I don't think any learning can happen on campuses unless students are free to express their opinions, even if they don't match that of the professor. However, I am appalled if someone says a word like "sh--" in my class, or says something, like the "b" word. But I try to be gentle rather than ferocious about it. In the Lopez case, the professor might be seen as oppressive, insofar as he has more power than the student in his particular classroom, and he tried to have the student expelled from the college for expressing his opinion. That would set an extremely poor precedent.

The whole notion of authority and freedom (and the ways in which they compete) are on trial in this case.

67 comments:

Ed Baker said...

you skip right over The Mother of Dada:

Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven (1874-1927)

also the first dadist to set foot on American soil.

She broke many taboos

tomato can bra!

she gave the urinal to Duchamps...

her art objects were the precursors to dada objects of the teen and twenties, her sound and visual poetry were far more daring than the male modernists of her time andher performances prefigured feminist body art and performance art by nearly half a century. etc.


a neat bio (dig the section chapter 10!)

Baroness Elsa Gender, Dada, and Everyday M o d e r n i t y by Irene Gammel


there is also a novel HOLY SKIRTS by Rene Steinke (as I recall I got a copy for $0.01)



enjoyed your today's post good "stuff"

Kirby Olson said...

What year did she set foot on American soil?

I've read some things about her. Do you think she contributed to American morals?

Anonymous said...

according to the chronology seems like in US in 1917 as she was incarcerated for 3 weeks in Connecticut as a spy..1917-1918 then moved to NYC 1918 Greenwich Village

1919 meets up with WCW do read chapter 10

The Poetic Feud of William Carlos Williams, Ezra Pound, and the Baroness



Williams "took a timid peek at the "great bed hanging from four chains from the ceiling." (1) He proudly acted the role of lover for the Provincetown Players and indulged in 'fruitless' flirtations with costar Mina Loy."

I guess these gals one of the main dras for WC to frequently come into Manhattan plus that little group of poets he was involved with..

this bed was in the apartment of Margret Anderson and Jane Heap.

Baroness Elsa was also "connected" to Djuna Barnes (Nightwood) and etc...

1902 she hooked up with Paul Greve wrote lots of erotic-sexually explicit letters and poems and performance art she wrote pre-dada "stuff" that Breton and
Arp and Tzara, etc picke-up on a few years later
so yes she certainly DID "deconstruct" American Morals... than came Eva Hess et al...

I just got this book so am just
flipping' around in it... a big book fun!


and, she wore black lip-stick I guess the first one to so do in USA

etc..

for $0.01 + $3.99 s/h I just bought a copy of Steinke's novel about Elsa in NYC HOLY SKIRTS

all of this of her is very recent discovery for me...

fun, but I have my own habits and seldom appropriate "stuff" from others..at least that I
am aware of...

effect moral? well, a sense of play is all it takes

Ed

jh said...

postmodernism = -xsquared

the church of rome took a pretty severe stance against modernism in the late 19th cent.
and with good reason
nothing good has come of it
unless you regard some existential dillydallying by selfproclaimed artists and neurotic impulsive attention getters an advance in culture

and the critique still stands
man manipulating man for the sake of a reason saturated future of man is in the end maniacal

while experimentation is valuable in any art experimentation for the sake of experimentation is like playing sharades on computer programs...OK it can be fun but who ever said that was an element of serious art...i suppose the surrealists and dadaists and their precursors needed something to do

only now with advent of environmentally focused thinking is there some sort of return to sanity in building and land use...it's a revival of sort...people 200 yrs ago new about the sensible use of land and resources...because they had to...with a renewed appreciation for the earth comes a reconsideration of what we have forgotten...i should hope there's enough of it left to inspire good craft

but in questions of morality it has always struck me as amazing that the "liberation" of modernism allowed for all of this social experimentation with everything from drugs to sex to social arrangments like marriage and sexual disposition and artisitic expression but virtually nothing has come of it...and the reaction in church practice the efort to appropriate what is contemporary at least in catholic circles has meant nothing short of the ridiculous...and we see the elements as they emerge into the practice of liturgy and they get in there and it's as if we know it should'nt be there but now it's in and there's nothing anyone can do...except go back to old latin rites...which look stranger than anything any modernist or postmodernist can come up with...i recall that once while serving in a parish i was asked to help with the "pageant" for the kids for christmas morning mass...complete with stage props walking camels and sheep and the whole mass of kids acting out the nativity scene...magi and all...i watched the thing in complete disbelief...it was so obviously surreal...so out of place...so incongruous with the reason we were there...the priest in charge was just delighted with all the pandamonium...yet i wish never to have to witness something so liturgically stupid again...harmless...well i guess so...but it was a display of ignorance and a complete lack of theological understanding...at the end they sang happy birthday to jesus...it was then i realized postmodernism had invaded the church

as a reaction to the insanity of living i guess people find expression in zany ways..i appreciate the art which comes from early 20th century eastern europe and that which emerged in the folds of communism...for there there was and is a definite cultural purpose...but the art affairs in the west strike me as a bunch of spoiled kids poking fun at the seriouness of life...knowing nobody can rein them in

the cure may be worse than the disease

when art removes itself by degrees from religious purpose it becomes more and more decadent...and meaningless...although i will admit decadence does have its attractions

a friend of mine in montana spent her early art years doing dada-type things and was heavily influenced by the surrealist tendencies...but she was asked to help in a restoration of the cathedral in my home town...the restoration was a combination of regaining the original artwork on the walls and pillars and rearranging the sancturay in a new way...in order to work well she had to go back and get in touch with the artistic efforts of craft and design which existed in the
16th 17th and 18th century...she said to me then that all her other art work was worthless time wasted in comparison to the challenge before her

time will bear this out
the church's stand against modernism has been the correct response...the presuppositions of secular humanism will prove far more injurious to mankind in general than anything the proponents were reacting to...give the genome tweekers a chance and they'll really phuq things up

i don't regret living through the social effects of the pretense of modernism and the posts which follow...it's just that i think there is a learned inability now to face up to the degradions spawned by that sort of thinking and acting...i'm glad i don't have to witness too much of it anymore...although confusion stemming from the influences exist well within the monastic cloister

the only good art is anonymous these days

i don't think i would've wanted to know about elsa friday
but now i do

thanks

j

G. M. Palmer said...

entropy v order.

cain v abel.

pretty damn old, really.

Kirby Olson said...

JH, I wonder about the Calvinist attempts to limit "individualism" by maknig plain grave markers, and denying art itself (as the Amish do).

One of the problems with individualism is that people love themselves so much (incurvatus en sei), and start to turn into themselves, in the Augustinian image --

Of course the Amish got around this with their monstrous quilting bees, in which art comes roaring back to life.

I think too that an art that goes too far from religion becomes decadent, and self-involved.

But the first commandment did originally have a stricture against graven images. Luther struck it down, and said that Christ's appearance was already art, an embodiment of an immaterial ideal, and that this in turn legitimated art.

The Taliban with their full-length burkhas seem to be working on this concept. I wonder how it would go in a capitalist country to require a uniform, as the Taliban or the Communist Chinese did -- one size fits all, and the Baroness would have been out of work.

I often think what would it be like if everyone had not only a uniform, but a bag of some kind for the head, and not only would they have to look alike, but the voice would all be Stephen Hawking's computer voice, and there would only be about ten things you could say, so that all originality was banished.

The things you could say would be absurd, along the lines of, "I need the bearnaise sauce on my peas, please."

Or,

"My chauffeur has been struck by lightning!"

No gesturing allowed, or else charades would set in.

Curtis Faville said...

Kirby:

This post is really all over the place. You've superimposed a lot of unrelated ideas and movements and disciplines, without going to the trouble of connecting them in a rational, orderly way.

Obviously, you know this.

This kind of helter-skelter intellectual mayhem suggests disorganization and hysteria.

I really can't respond to this--it isn't specific enough.

It's like you're throwing firecrackers at your readers.

I just have to stand back and hold my hands over my ears.

Kirby Olson said...

I think there's a relationship, but it would take 500 pages to fill it in.

It's too long as it is for a blog post.

Chaos vs. order, as GM put it. That's the central problem.

I will try to post on smaller tighter topics in the future.

Kirby Olson said...

I sometimes need feedback like this to understand how I'm coming across.

I appreciate it.

One of the problems with comments in general has been the snark factor in many blogs and boards.

When people are anonymous they go berserk with meanness (kind of like the guy from S. Korea was being here). Which is in turn like the experiment in California years ago where they let anonymous people zap subjects with electricity to punish them, and the researchers found that an inherent sadism came to the fore (perhaps a forerunner of Tasering?).

But I actually meant what I was saying in this post. Perhaps only Ed Baker got it, and perhaps only in his own way.

I wouldn't know. It's so interesting to see what comes in, and how people are responding.

Thanks, Curtis.

Anonymous said...

a little poem that I sent to Cid Corman and Shizumi
10 + years ago

(with a little drawing of my character "mu":

sometimes
it's not so easy
being myself

hey I "got it"? in my "own way" jeeze!

what did I get? and, now that I got "it",
what do I do with "it"?

A-non-uhmust

jh said...

the cistercian/trappists have had the tradition of unmarked graves
since the 12th century...the monks who became famous like bernard of clairvaux did so because they had a specific duty wcich brought them to rome (preaching the crusades)or they wrote something that had wide circulation...the black benedictines by the 16th century were relegated to a certain benign anonymity...they became powerful because of the wealth of talent in one community or another...luther and calvin resented this but in fact emulated some of the outward observable culture of the monasteries...they were united in deciding celibacy was a bad idea...even though jesus and st paul advocated the importance of the lifestyle for the sake of the kingdom

i have freud to thank for my awareness of "group mind"...his observation that groups aligned by common purpose and ideology develop a mentality that is communal rather than individual...the strong individual then is in fact a threat to the group.... i think this became a basis for group therapy

there is an internal critique in the church of rome at least in america which is highly suspicious of overt piety...the piety of veneration the piety of the rosary and the surreal piety of adherence to the charism of various saints...people still do these things but the emphasis now is on the community together in worship and in ministry...we're still in a state of liturgical experimention in many respects...again it is tension between what was worked out very well 500 or more years ago and what can be incorporated from new awareness in social practice and social consciousness

individualism for its own sake becomes tedious and boring
that's all we know
i suspect there were more authentic indivuduals around before it became a cause celebre
we tend to acknowledge audacity over substance

a true individual is formed by family and community and shines within those basic social structures and oftentimes beyond

i would say the wealth of talent amongst our jewish brothers and sisters is linked to the powerfully strong ties of community and community identity - even for those who opt for a more secular life

the rite of baptism for the first christians was in fact the conferral of identity within the kingdom...for most people were not identified socially by name but by their function...judaism was unique in that the name given at birth carried a strong sense of tradition and continuity...christian baptism was (and to a real extent is still) an acknowledgement of "person"

and individualism divorced from any social context tends to be a rather predictable escapade into selfinvolvment...modern humanism seems to me to promote this

i once heard a psychologist proclaim that family is the worst place for an individual to grow...i suppose if it is a violent and alcoholic and incestuous family it is pretty unhealthy...but how common is that?

so what are the modern taboos?? the postmodern taboos??

the taboo against graven images exited within jewish culture as a distinquishing principle...israel was told in effect - the other peoples the egyptians and the syrians the worshipers of fertility godesses and agricultural gods were given to making images of their gods with the belief that it somehow allowed them to bring about desired ends...for the jews this was not to be...they were not even to have a name - only a few nicknames - for god

iconoclasm is powerful
somehow it carries with it the sensation and the thought that opposing gods or ideologies can be destroyed

mercia eliade who grew up with a band of romanian icnoclast thinkers and writers the likes of cioran ionesco etc came around to the awareness that all the efforts to tear down structures and edifices and traditions is a way of merely starting ones own religion...of making god into our image

it's plenty uncomfortable working with the notion of a completely mysterious god who does condescend to reveal something now and then

those who militate against organized religion could not do so were it not for the order created in society by religion...if man could exist socially without religion it would be something to see...those who disparage it do so from within the tent of security religion provides...the flaps of which extend invisibly into every domain of society...every soul yearns for something the world cannot give

Kirby Olson said...

Hey, Ed, you said it was good stuff!

That's all I meant!

And Curtis said it made firecracker noises at him, and he leaped back, alarmed, holding his ears.

That's all I meant!

and GM said it was old hat.

JH wrote a nice long last post in which he extends what I'm thinking about here.

The notion of taboo breaking and iconoclasm is boring now after a hundred years of it, but the new taboos are -- thou shalt not make fun of the race or gender of such and such. That's pretty much the whole extent of our taboos now.

But within the victim mode, there are now competing groups of victims.

For instance, the Hispanic kid who tried to make a speech against gay marriage, was called a Fascist bastard by his professor.

Proposition 8 presented one group of victims as not being validated by another group. And so there is a furthering of victimization, going across many disenfranchised groups. Blacks voted against it. Hispanics voted against it. Asians voted against it.

That is, they voted against gay marriage in huge numbers (80% for blacks).

If modernism was the freeing of formerly oppressd groups, and formerly oppressed behaviors, then what is postmodernism?

To some extent modernism was Satanism (freeing of the libido).

Which should mean that gay marriage is ok.

To some extent it was also a freeing of oppressed minorities. Many of whom turn out to be Christian.

I find it intriguing to see how all these groups are not monolithic, but are at cross(ed) porpoises.

I think Ed's bringing up Elsa and the sense of "play" is one aspect of modernism (freeing the inner child), but there are other aspects (freeing genders, freeing races).

And they don't all agree.

I see huge fault lines forming within the Democratic ranks. Lines which the Republicans may yet use to divide and conquer the Democrats in the upcoming elections.

(McCain could have done it, but he was too nice.)

It's very hard to think in terms of societal fault lines, and cracks among the hegemony.

Lee Atwater not only saw the cracks but exploited them mercilessly.

I think that within Dadaist ranks fault lines appeared almost immediately.

Breton said, He this isn't going anywhere. We still have a responsibility to act as adults.

And that was the first of the big cracks.

Then they tried to join the commies. Another fault line, this time between individual and communal artistic effort.

Curtis, can you follow this yet?

Kirby Olson said...

What there is to follow is this: modernism said there should be no more restraints of any kind: let's bust all taboos.

A few taboos have crept back in nevertheless.

But we need more taboos than just those. We need to think about restraints, including Tasers, including jails, including police, including mores, including manners, including all the stuff that was junked by modernism.

There's probably no way around this.

Going back to Christianity is probably the best idea. But which denomination?

And which congregation?

And what are we going to accept as changes for the good of all?

The task is baffling, and chaos is everywhere. We need some preliminary order of some kind, I should think.

But we don't want to become fascist bastards.

Kirby Olson said...

by the way, wasn't Elsa insane?

I read somewhere that she stunk up the place.

Luther Blissett said...

You make a logical slip between "taboo" and "oppression."

There is a huge difference among breaking a rule, questioning a rule, and replace one rule with another.

When I eat bacon-and-cream-cheese bagels, I am breaking a rule (my great-grandparents' Jewish dietary laws). But I am also suggesting through my praxis a new rule: I should be able to eat what is most delicious.

Or perhaps I'm not ready to break the rule -- or I cannot force others to break the rule. So I might propose or argue that breaking the rule would be an interesting or useful thing to do. So I could be a feminist who, herself not having children, proposes to other women that they might take some control over who puts what in their wombs. That's called questioning a rule.

Or a might say: these separate drinking fountains are stupid and wrong. Let's have a new rule: separating people on the basis of skin color is stupid and wrong. That's not anti-taboo; it's simply replacing one taboo with another.

A more accurate way of thinking about modernism is not the breaking of taboos but the questioning and testing of received wisdom and tradition. So modernism could stretch back to Bacon's essays, could incorporate the Protestant challenges to Catholic orthodoxy, could include the scientific revolution's transformation of our worldviews, and could be seen at work in that art which asked, "Why is it good to write in that way or about those things?"

Anonymous said...

http://www.sarojinisahoo.blogspot.com/

the above might add something...

then, again, it mayn't knot

(pardon my French!)

jh said...

in the salon newsletter
there's an interesting article today
"the new pornagraphers"

j

Kirby Olson said...

Luther -- I wonder if there is a way in which taboo and oppression are joined, at least for the modernists.

Taboo I believe stems from Oceanic tribal language -- or African?

Webster's Collegiate doesn't have the etymology but gives these two definitions

1. a prohibition against touching, saying, or doing something for fear of immediate harm from a mysterious superhuman force

2. a prohibition imposed by social custom or as a protective measure

If you go back to Leviticus and you are thinking anthropologically you could see homosexuality for instance as a taboo -- even though it says that humans should punish the act. It doesn't say that a lightning bolt will strike.

Drinking from waterfountains in the south under Jim Crow laws would be an example of a "social custom."

Law in ancient Israel would have been linked quite clearly to the Ten commandments, and to the notion of a "superhuman force."

Today it's much more a matter of social customs, which are increasingly stepping out from under the shadow of Judeo-Christian thought.

Rules were backed up by superhuman force in religious systems.

So in a sense they were rules AND taboos.

The terms have slid.

Laws are rules that are enforced by social custom.

All laws are rules, but all rules are not laws.

Some laws are based on ancient taboos.

Some laws are based on social customs, which in turn stem from taboos, which may not yet have been questioned.

It's hard to separate all these systematically.

Soupault in the original video used the word "taboos."

So I used it.

He's trying to put French society under an anthropological lens by using the term. So as to show that superstitions held the society together.

Freud agreed with this, and they were to some extent using Freud.

But by 1983, soupault would have also known Levi-Strauss' work, and probably something about what was going on with Lacan, and others, who had in turn based their thinking on surrealism.

Breaking the rules, and even law-breaking, and even outright criminality, were to some extent celebrated by the surrealists.

They didn't make the finer distinction that you have made.

In turn, Lutheranism did question some of the dictates of the Catholics (in particular, indulgences), but only so as to get back to rules grounded in Scripture. They never threw out the notion of the Scriptural, as the basis for all rules.

They just denied accretions such as indulgences (selling get-out-of jail cards to parishioners).

So in a sense Christianity has never stopped thinking about the rule of law as being based on the dictates of a "superhuman force" which is the basis of taboos.

Surrealists largely attempted to abandon the Christian ship.

But the found themselves on a pirate ship with dark forces, flailing about, trying first to find a system of adequate countervalent laws in Marxism (which they rejected as early as 1934), and never really found anything else.

Marxism is a terrible mistake. It's basically Satanism, in which it is now legal for Cain to kill Abel, since it's considered scientific for him to do so, backed up by History, which has now become the new superhuman force.

It's a terrible tangle, I think.

Kirby Olson said...

Soupault's actual words are in the first 50 seconds of this video here:

http://www.dailymotion.com/user/MELMOTH/video/x3b6vf_soupault-le-surrealisme-partie-2_creation

He says that surrealism is a rupture with all the taboos of society, and especially within poetry.

He talks about this more in the first 17 minutes. He says that part of the rupture came from their disgust with the patriotic gore that was being ballyhooed in the pages of journals by the likes of Paul Bourget and Maurice Barres,w ho were talking about the beauty of bayonettes, while they themselves were in the mud, where 30,000 French and 30,000 Germans were dying every month.

Rules and taboos are linked together I think at least in this expression. Not sure to my own satisfaction where one begins and the other ends, though.

The definition of rule, the first one in Webster's, begins thus:

1. to exert control, direction, or influence on 'the superstitions that rule primitive minds'

Also,

the laws or regulations prescribed by the founder of a religious order for observance by its members

ruleless: not restrained or regulated by law

and under Law: The revelation of the will of God set forth in the Old Testament

(among other definitions, at least part of the definitions of taboo, rule, and law seem to intersect, in the manner of a Venn diagram)

Kirby Olson said...

Another way to look at it might be to take the sentence from E.M. Cioran from his book Anathemas and Admirations:

"Religions, like the ideologies that have inherited their vices, are reduced to crusades against humor" (13).

Originally, this is what turned me against Christianity when I was about 12, and going through communion classes. I didn't like this side of religion.

Who does?

But to laugh all day as if we are Caligula at just any atrocity is also not exactly right -- it's almost as disturbing as to never laugh.

Rule of law is one thing, and when we laugh, we often laugh at its expense. But to laugh all day long, as if the whole world is a gas, and there is nothing that can bring us back down to earth -- it seems equally horrific.

We still need taboos. We still need to see that some people aren't behaving properly. And we have to have certain norms, or else we are in all kinds of trouble.

The Dada revolution was an explosion of disgust over WWII. From that point of view it makes sense.

But I don't think we have to throw out the entire western world.

Some sense of humor is important, but also some sense of sobriety.

Getting this just right is what LS aims at!

Skittles, The Huntress said...

Dear Lutheran Surrealist,

I cannot speak to philosophy, modernism, or post modernism as you and your buddies do. Yet I do get the general line of analogy/logic here.

Still I have to ask this. With regards to the LACC case, you wrote:


"In addition, with Proposition 8 looming in the background to the case, and with black America voting Democrat but against gay marriage, a rift as big as the San Andreas Fault appears to be opening in the left."

Well, let's see. Prop 8 is a CA prop, but you stretch the whole black American vote to be against gay marriage. And since Lopez is Hispanic, I just don't get the leap of logic. But most likely I missed something in there.

Prop 8 and gay marriage certainly catch headlines. However, there is hardly a rift the size of the San Andreas fault. If anything, the rift is over the amendment process in California, which allows for amendments to the Constitution by a simple majority, and not a two thirds majority. (Prop 8 passed 52%/48%)

Should we allow the taboo of same sex marriage? Personally I don't have a problem with it. If they want marriage counselings and nasty divorces including the ugly attorneys and their fees, that come as a gift with purchase, more power to them.

However, I do quibble with the movement to make marriage a right.

You, Kirby, as a white male, with all the privileges society bestows, do not have a "right" to marry anyone you please. The state does not allow you to marry your mother, sister, daughter, or the neighbor's 12 year old son, or a host of others.

Here in California, the biggest quibble is with that difference between rights and privileges. The left is making this a equal protections action. The right wants to keep some restrictions in place. But once marriage is a "right," then the state can not longer regulate, and can only restrict illegally.

Why don't the gays get this difference?

WW

oh, yeah, and here in San Diego, the city lost a judgment this week to four male, heterosexual firefighters for forcing them to participate in the Gay Pride Parade. Go figure.

Kirby Olson said...

I'm very confused on the whole gay marriage issue, and don't understand it from any viewpoint. I think I will have to read a history of marriage, or something, or two or three, to figure out what it even is.

I didn't know that the simple majority idea was starting to go forward in California.

I understand almost nothing.

Anonymous said...

while you were/are trying so hard to "understand" (and write about 'that' I just got this first typed draft..

WET FROM HER BATH

find/found the imaged
word
the
shape
of

the line is it s (own)
[fertility


not form precedes or pre
-de:termines definition

follows

;here, 2 nd Ave., I am Vasco da Gama
;traveling in a Easterly Fashion cold-water
;walk-up f.l.a.t.

..... and when she steps
/wet from her bath ... glistening smiles

OH, MY! Her

;sun-lit yellow body 22 shadow of window-bars
;streaming takes patterns from the window/stripes my eye

;my mind also opens onto Houston Street

;frames
movement
far beyond

(so, maybe I should re:visit Hart Crane?

maybe that is not such a bad idea


I seem to recall Visions & Voices did a neat film re: Hart Crane (and others)

etc.


Kokkie-san

jh said...

people (i think of tribal law which still exists for people who leave the tribe and go to the cities in africa) far less sophisticated than we pretend to be maintain a communal sanctioning of marriage

i attended a lecture some years ago by an african woman who described a typical "test" period for marriage...which included severe interrogations by the grandmother of the bride and a period of lived negligence for the man...he had to endure a period of living in the village and being neglected...the woman had to undergo a period of slappings and hittings

we are at a loss for thinking marriage is about the individual
and individual happiness

when gay people insist on being parents i find it to be the heighth (really over the top)of hypocricy

we create possibility where in fact there is none

but
everyone needs to do something

there are no homosexuals
only persons woefully benighted
only people who've given themselves over
to the ultimate in
demeaning categories
they identifyu themselves
by bad habits

the penis was made for two things alone
the vagina for one

j

brett Swanson said...

Homosexuality is natural.

Most other mammals do it.

We can either demonize it or legitimize it.

Homosexuals will still be around.

If they are demonized, they will act out with extreme promiscuity and deviancy.

If they are legitimized...Well, we can believe the opposite will happen.

Let's get on with the opposite, and stop demonizing homosexuals by denying them the right to have legitimized monogamy.

The gays are trying to make gayness Not culturally equivalent with pedophilia or incest.

They obviously aren't trying to give anyone the right to marry anyone - only gays the right to marry gays. Consenting adults deciding to be monogamous and a certain part of each others' lives.

It is important for them to be culturally and legally allowed to love each other.

It's not about abolishing all standards - it never is.

It's about shifting standards to something more humane, realistic, and healthy.

There is nothing hypocritical about gays wanting to be parents - you are losing me with your logic.

Also with your 'there are no homosexuals.'

JH, you are making vast assumptions originating from your religious beliefs and applying them willy nilly to the public sphere.

This is not good for America.

jh said...

phuq amerika

brett

my point is
the rhetoric of humanism does not stand
life ityself tends to defy the presuppositions of the humanist/positivists
it is irrelevant
at least to me it is
i refuse to label anyone or identify anyone socially based on their behavioural predilections
i do not acknowledge the rhetoric
nor the insistance
nor the dance
nor the rain coat
nor the jewels
nor the whole schtick

everyone has a right to promote their private agendas everyone has a right to be who they want to be even if it means duplicity or more

but we do at some point have to acknowledge something greater than self or selves

enough of this grouping by predilection already
i find it boring
like paint drying
but maybe thats the way they
want the pictures to look
i don't know or care
i detest pictures and i
cannot tolerate movies too well
so i do better staring at the wall
and smiling at godz good will
if the world or amerika can't take that well

already said

i trust only in the simple love of man and woman or the people who decide to refrain from dealing with people on a sexual level physically sexual anything more difficult than that and i get too confused and bored...i don't deny that it as a sexual phenomenon does exist and is expressed culturally...it's just that i don't care to socialize with anyone that much
i read a lot in quiet
and play guitar

our worlds are different but we're in the same world

i'll apologize to amerika when the bottom falls out

the categories of freud the behavioural categories are wrong....we can't be boxing up people like that

the human agenda is a rat race and little else

rollerskate with the angels pal
rollerskate with the angels

brett Swanson said...

JH - you call homosexuals 'woefully benighted,' language much harsher than what you used when seeming to back up or excuse or (whatever you were doing) pedophiles.

Icky.

See, gay people don't think of themselves as being 'woefully benighted.'

You think of them that way for reasons as yet unclear except your basic assumption that homosexuality is bad because you personally believe that the penis was invented for two things - vagina-sex and pissing.

I believe that fish were only made for swimming in bowls and looking pretty - not for eating.

Therefore if you eat fish you are 'woefully benighted' in darkness.

Should our government, therefore, ban fish-eating? If just enough people think fish are only made for swimming in bowls prettily?

Yorn shtick doesn't add up, and you've decided to bring in a lot of unrelated hogwilly about humanism to cover up your basic point that you hate gay people and want them to be unhappy and feel marginalized.

I mean, some may personally think that being Catholic is pretty sinful (praying to or even through 'saints' is, like, totally against God's word), but I'll give you every right to devote yourself to that identity in your monkism since you live in this lovely, free country of ours.

Why we can't let consenting adults decide to love each other and become bound by the bonds of family is beyond me and not at all addressed by your so-far-lacking reasons.

You say 'every one has the right to be who they want to be,' and then you say they don't.

Right?

jh said...

after thought

i'd be willing to try the experiment of letting humans get away with everything that passes for normal behaviour in the animal kingdom

why limit it to one peculiar expression

pax sans sex
saxual attraction
doodwoo dwee dah prhrdooo dah dee

Kirby Olson said...

I think this is what it comes down to:

Either we let everything that's natural happen (what isn't natural?), or else we accept SOME supernatural truth.

Isn't that the crux?

You can't have a little of this and a little of that, I don't think, like it's a buffet.

You need some coherence, and either we follow nature and act like monkeys, and fish, and birds, or else we act like Christ taught us to act.

Either way seems impossible.

But one way makes at least some moral sense, even if it's virtually impossible to achieve.

Two kingdoms DOES allow us to be animals in this kingdom, and angels in the next.

We are somehow between those two possibilities, walking a tightrope.

brett Swanson said...

Aye - I don't mean to say that we should follow nature as our moral compass.

That's silly!

I mean to say that gay people Are, in fact, gay -

How we view that morally is one question.

How we view it legally is another question.

And it is very hateful to deprive consenting adults of the ability to form monogamous, legitimized, legal bonds of love.

It's also less pragmatic.

jh said...

no brett

i am saying everyone has the right to be wrong ...but their is also the obligation to pursue a higher truth

we get to be human
and that means all sorts of deviation from established norms

who am i to deny someone the right to express feelings for someone else??

it's a very good question to ask: why do we permit the behaviour of homosexuality but condemn those who have inclinations toward younger people?? in my mind the predilections are not very distinguishable...two consenting yet ignorant adults embracing an activity which defies natural law...two people one of whom should know better acting out the desire for pleasure...it seems like minor degrees of perversion

when i say i refuse to acknowledge the rhetoric and the social justification for the activity of deviant sex i mean just that...i refuse to use the labels or the categories...i do not acknowledge people based on their sexual inclinations...i don't want their antics or their social insistence in my face...or even in my neghborhood...yet i do believe that the social resistance to the expressions and vying for legal rights is as valid or moreso as the demands for rights and social acceptance of individuals based on their selflabelling ...thus we have the tension which kirby expresses in the comment just above and the original post

i do find the whole "gay" movement benighted
but i walk along the dark path to salvation with all kinds of sinners
i'm not going to rate them
or believe that i have to sanction some sins and not others

i have a priest friend who was involved in acting out the sexual traumas of his youth in very unhealthy ways
and he paid for it in prison
was even raped in there
and i know him to be a very decent fellow

i also know a man who was an ordained anglican priest was married had three daughters and later decided he was of a different sexual nature all together abandoned his family for his boyfriend...and this situation does simply strike me as selfindulgent and hypocritical
and i cannot abide being around this guy socially...it just reeks of what is worst in human selfjustification

yet i live with men who are perhaps aware of themselves in terms of their sexual inclinations but are not permitted by the dictates of this life to give social expression to these inclinations as we all are limited by our vows...it would be as absurd as my desiring to show off as a male stud or something

and i think those sorts of social norms are important

if it's simply about making way for individual happiness well i think anything should go

people have to have the freedom to sin just as children have to have the freedom to make their mistakes
as do adults perhaps to a lesser degree...but we are also given to calling a spade a spade...and accepting the responsibility for our actions

if the question is not about sin
then it's about getting away with sin

we even have the freedom to defy the truth
but that don't make it right

everyone has the right to be human
and that must mean being something other than merely animal...to be human is to acknowledge on some level the moral and ethical positions we have inherited...for me it is more than just making the social adjustment...it's more about getting the philosophy right
and having the humility to know one is being drawn to the truth

i simply state that i disagree with the freudian categories of human social identity based on sexual awareness and practice

the "humanist" religion can incorporate that...
i don't have to

i do not hate gay people
i resent the use of the word gay
i really can't use it anymore
in the sense of its original use

hey
give back that word!
i want my adverb

i resent a little bit the false dichotomy presented by the argument for rights based on sexual preference
the Us vs Them which creates then a ridiculous conflict...and it limits the ability for young people especailly to discern for themselves what the best path through life may be

my thinking on the matter is defined by the virtue of chastity
and that in itself determines the openended view of human behaviour and growth and a resistance to easy social definitions based on types of behaviour..to see ones life as a human with sexual power in the contet of chastity implies defining oneself by the aspiration for something more than selfsatisfation...and enough people have done this successfully for it to be more coherent and more viable than merely appropriating sexual preference...why it's not is an interesting question

i am willing to be boxed into my monastic cell and seek truth and my understanding befoe god
but not by any other social definition

ultimately i do believe that the catholic understanding of human nature is far more "humane" than the understanding which derives from secular social philosophy

i certainly will not abide the use of the term "community" based on similar dispositions...i live in a community of all men but if we were to make distinctions (which some do) based on sexual preference it would be a friggin mess...entry into the life must be motivated by a calling higher than mere selfknowledge or selfidentification based on sexual awareness...to me that sort of identification is a woeful diminishment of human potential...

you can make it OK for people to do that but i don't have to accept it

religious groups have and society at large has the right to deny rights to people...we insist upon it...and that is at least as right as the belief that rights are deserved by people based on their predilections

jesus caught fish and dined on fish with his disciples
that's good enough for me

you seem to enjoy nature when it is contained in a bowl
i prefer it wild

there's a rhetorical impass here
and the burden is upon those who defy a coherent understanding of the human being before god

if god is out of the question
than all things must be permissable
that's what i say
along with dostoevsky

people get upset in catholic circles by bishops who make decress which limit the social expression of homosexuality in public worship and practice of faith
i think it's necessary for bishops to do this
you can't have someone up there reading who by their lifestyle is in effect flippingoff rome
the bottom line is
you can participate as a human being humbly serving your god
you can't use the podium as a place to hammer home your beliefs about who you are as a sexual person
a married man with children doesn't get to do it nor does the priest whose life is commited to pursuing a life of perfect chastity

if a priest is knowledgable about a mans' adultery a man who presumes to be lector or reader for the day...if the priest thinks the congregation knows too the priest is obliged to replace that ma...just as a priest who flaunts sexual permissiveness must expect to be bounced out by a bishop sooner or later

ultimately i believe marriage is a sacrament and that defines something which is lost upon those who view marriage as merely a personal choice and social contract

social appropriation of human deviance can make its way any way it wants
the church does not have to condone it

i think my much earlier statements had to do with making the claim that abortion is far more egregious than sexual deviance of any sort
next to abortion
sexual deviance seems to me but child's play

maybe that's an area for you to explore
you seem to think humans can have the right to kill to end the life of perfectly viable humans in the womb... but then sexual boundary violations are somehow icky???

that gives me pause to wonder about your moral development
perhaps you're a child of your age

if women can kill children in the womb
than anything must be permissable
let's party

one minor point
you state something about demonizing leading to promiscuity and deviance
when the "liberation" happened in the 60s and 70s there was horrendous promiscuity...and as a society we've yet to come to terms with that...it seems now we are trying to domesticate an activity that by it's very nature defies domestication...i'm surprised the "gay community" does not look back upon their recent history with more embarrassment and shame

let us be one in christ

j

G. M. Palmer said...

Murderers are, in fact, murderers.

Child molesters are, in fact, child molesters.

Fat people are, in fact, fat.

Alcoholics are, in fact, alcoholics.

Stupid people are, in fact, stupid.

In other news, I was watching The Other Boleyn Girl last night and wondering how much better England would have been had Henry changed the laws not to annul his marriage to Catherine but to ensure Mary's ascension to the throne. As a protected heir apparent, she might even have been married off and with a male child by the time Henry died -- and indeed, if it's possible -- that it was God's will that women be allowed to rule equally with men (as eventually happened with Elizabeth anyway) and not that England break from Rome. . .

Wishing Catholics would give up on transubstantiaion, Marian theology, and the separation of the priesthood,
M

Kirby Olson said...

Wow, JH gives me pause and resets the clock when he says that chastity is the norm, or should be the norm, and Paul basically does say that it is, while het marriage is already a kind of fall into time, second-best.

I love how many ways there are to arrange life with different landmarks for each of us.

I didn't understand why GM says these things at the end. Are they specific responses to JH, or just general inquiries? Marian theology, and tran-substant-iation?

Kirby Olson said...

Anne Boleyn, if I have the name right, was apparently a Lutheran.

G. M. Palmer said...

No, Kirb,

I would gladly embrace the capital C Catholic church if it would give up the triune silly notions of transubstantiation, emphasis on Marian theology, and the insistance on a separate priesthood.

jh said...

gm

a murderer is a murderer
but is that the extent to which we limit
his or her identity??
some murderers have become deeply repentant
and have lived fairly decent lives
some people have murdered to preserve the honor of other people and they have to live with that but are they simply murderers??

fat people are sometimes intellectuals

some child molesters
are capable of taking responsibility for their predilections
and function in work

for setting a stage for a play perhaps one needs those social characteristics to mean something
to symbolize something... but for actually living life
i at least feel obliged to think beyond the social labels

now if an unshaven bleary eyed woman appears at my door smoking a reefer and says she's a childmolester on a reentry program and is living nextdoor and i have children am i going to be alert to the phenomenon...well yes i guess so

like my heroes thomas d'aquino and gk chesterton i'm a little overweight
wish i had some of their wits

transubstantiation is a very useful and pastoral idea (if we want to call it that...perhaps it is closer to a spiritual vision) the notion is threefold or four

christ is present and is "trans-substantiated" into the life of the proclaimed word of god - the bible when read aloud in worship is the evokation the hearing and the accepting in the hearts of the faithful the word of god...when prayed and read prayerfully in quiet the bible also carries this power...christ is present and has come to live in the hearts of the faithful gathered christ manifest in life is evidence of the trans-substantiation of christ

christ is present in the ordained minister in a unique and necessary way...it's temple worship
it's serious business
it always has been a male thing and given the nature of the ritual it is appropriate....christ present in the role and image of the priest

and finally christ present in the sacrament itself
the re-manifestation of the account of the last supper
doing out of obedience what a steady stream of devoted followers have done

the metaphor that comes close to explaining our dependence upon and love for mary is the relationship of mother to child....each of us has something different to say about that ....but in many ways the care we got from the person we call mother is one very important avenue to understanding love in the world...yet our veneration of mary is something more...it defies explanation in some ways

you sort of have to be there

the lutheran doctrine of "consubstantiation" has always been a notion implicated within the grander doctrine

what does the practice of celebration of the holy eucharist look like in a post modern world??

i'm terribly impressed with the level of intelligent banter here once again

even the sparring maintains some dignity

kirby seems to have found a socially acceptable role and niche for the unadulterated goofboll dingbat clodhoppin clown

but seriously folks

j

jh said...

gm
i passed over the notion of the seperate priesthood

but i think you get the sense of it

from the outset it was determined by the first followers of christ that the work of keeping the prayerlife and ritual life of the church going was pretty important...and it was best to have really well trained thoughtful people doing this...for some odd reason some folks decided that this must mean total dedication...a perilous proposition indeed...but the work of preserving the insights and the texts became the work of the "professionally religious"....and it seems to have worked itself out for the best in the religiously designated institutions for total dedication and service...not perfectly by any means...but that's the way it goes

it is obvious now that the pastoral function of the priesthood can be administered by the nonordained...we all have a certain commitment to that i should hope

great speculation on the boleyn girls...that period of cultural split and turmoil and rebuilding is fascinating

i see rowan williams has written a new book one of 7 in recent years on jacques maritain and flannery oconnor....maybe we're getting closer to some agreement here

alls well and all manner of thing

thanks

j

Kirby Olson said...

Rowan williams is becoming the Christian Zizek -- he writes on anything and everything, his books flying off the presses as fast as he can type. I read one on aesthetics. a little hysterical, but also very peircing at points, rather, again, like Zizek.

He's constantly saying something both bright and sinister. In the paper about two months ago he suggested that England make room for Sharia law in Muslim sections of England.

The presses flipped their lids.

brett Swanson said...

If one takes homosexuality necessarily as a sin, I suppose that's what you must do -

But comparing it to child molestation, which is rape of the most vulnerable, is off-kilter.

There are principles here - the principles of free will and the ability to make decisions about ones own actions.

Two homosexual men humping are not violating each other unwillingly.

Child molestation is...

Homosexual sex, if a sin, is equivalent to premarital sex...or masturbation, perhaps. What's the old saying? 95% of men admit to masturbating...the other 5% lie.

Whereas child molestation is rape.

Your talk of natural law is hogphilly...

That's the one reason I brought up nature - in Nature, you see, mammals hump members of the same sex all the day long.

Natural Law. Law of nature.

If you mean something else by 'natural law,' please use a different phrase, because 'natural law' denotes 'laws of nature,' whatever other meanings have been given to the phrase by sophistry.

What makes us different from the animals is love.

If we legitimize homosexual love, we allow them the full right of being human.

If we don't, we don't, and there's animalness all over.

In the end, sex isn't a big deal - Oppression is.

In America, actually, you're not allowed to inhibit others freedom when those freedoms don't inhibit your own (or someone else's).

At least, you shouldn't be...

Again, this is all about the redrawing of lines - and those who like the lines where they are Always, alwaysalwaysalways, get all fallacious and pretend that the redrawing of certain lines means the abolition of all lines.

In the sphere of government, the denial of personal freedom can not be allowed.

Now, of course, the government can't force you to love a certain type of person or behavior - you're allowed to hate black people, but the government can't have separate drinking fountains at their public parks (or disallow them from marrying)...

You can go around all the day long thinking that homosexuality is a sin - that's fine. That's your freedom.

But you shouldn't have the right to deny others freedom just because your oppressive, freedom-destroying view has tended to be in the majority recently.

The tyranny of the majority must be met and overcome by the freedoms inherent in the constitution.

Good to know, though, that in the future, when old people die, so do their bad old ideas, and we'll get past our travesties slowly but surely.

Just wish the old people didn't throw so many rocks from their porches so they could spend more time leaving behind their good ideas, too...

Oh, and letting consenting adults of the same sex commit to loving each other monogamously is not mutually exclusive with trying to follow something higher.

Most of us on the correct side of this issue;-) actually acknowledged that they're inseparably linked.

And the sin your former friend committed was adultery - lots and lots of people do this, most of them involving heterosexual sex.

You prefer child-molesters over adulterers...I still find this somewhat disturbing...

Kirby Olson said...

I have the feeling that JH's monastery is a sanctuary for troubled people of all kinds. I think this was Luther's gripe about chastity --

That it led to perversion.

I had a Catholic monk in my Shakespeare class at Portland Community college and I asked him how many of the brothers were gay, and he said all of them.

He laughed, which probably meant that he exaggerated, and he didn't include himself.

I think we were reading Henry VIIIth at the time -- nice text with lots of theological subtleties about Cranmer (crypto-Lutheran) if I recall (I haven't looked at the text since then, and it was only that one semester that I got to teach Shakespeare).

At any rate, JH has heard about the troubles of the monks around him, and sympathizes. For the rest of us out here in the community, who have never heard about it from that side, all we can think is bad, bad.

But if nature is the paradigm we're following, then -- um, Brett, there are lots of animals that EAT their children, no problems.

That's not going to become some kind of new norm is it since it's found in nature?

Kirby Olson said...

Societies do seek to regulate relationships, which is what separates us from the animals (who don't regulate relationships through law and custom). It is the general will that decides relationships.

JH is arguing on a somewhat different note that there are two productive functions of the penis -- one has to do with emptying the bladder, one has to do with impregnating a woman.

The vagina has only one productive function -- acceptnig sperm.

According to Catholic sexual thought in Augustine, anything that's not directly concerned with the functionality of sex in terms of procreation is considered a perversion. There is only one permissable sexual relationship -- man to woman, face to face, married, and aiming at a child.

Everything else is a perversion.

That means we are probably all perverts at one time or another, all the way up to the Pope, but JH is correct to take us back to the Catholic notion.

The general will is now changing away from this (Rousseau was maybe the first to argue that the general will of the population is what legitimates a custom in democratic societies). The general will now argues that intimacy is a good thing, and so sexual love can be something to bring a married couple closer. It's not just about the creation of babies.

And from that, pleasure itself has become the object of the general will, from the sexual revolution on.

If we nevertheless wish to regulate in terms of harm done, a case might still be made that male homosexuals harm one another when sodomy is practiced (especially with STD transfer), while gay women generally do not harm one another in quite that same way.

Child molesting is considered almost always harmful by almost everyone (aside from a few perverts).

But Ginsberg and Orlovsky and burroughs for instance were wildly in favor of sex with children, as was Michel Foucault. Foucault thought there should be no laws of any kind regarding sexuality. Absolutely everything was permitted, and even argued that child prostitution was just fine (right there on p. 30 of the first book on the History of Sexuality!) -- I confess I never got much further than that anecdote about Monsieur Jouy having his way with the kids of his village, and how Foucault saw it as no problem.

Dada attempted to bring down all sobriety and seroiusness as a result of its protest against the violence of WWI. If things were that bad, then nonsensical art couldn't be restrained, and thus a totally meaningless life could be had, since our body belongs to ourselves, not to the state, or something.

brett Swanson said...

I - "I" in bold lettering - am not supporting anything like following nature for our guidance.

JH seems to be, when he talks about the law of nature when attacking gays.

And then I'm saying look - even IN the law of nature - gayness is okay.

It's nice of you to temper your language when talking about JH and child molesters - but as a parent, I know that you know that I know that you think they're the worst people in the world.

When personalized even a smidge, the righteous and right response arises.


And you're right - regulating relationships is something society does - my argument, and the truth, is that regulating homosexual relationships so that homosexuals can marry is far superior to not regulating them this way.

It's a blight against individual liberty and the separation of church and state to keep homosexuals from having jobs and places to live and teachers.

I think most of us understand this.

So our option is either to leave homosexuality unlegitimized and unregulated but still around, or to allow for the government to intervene and help stabilize homosexual relationships - which will legitimize them, but bring order, commitment, and love as well.

Let's face it - you either trend toward giving homosexuals equal rights, or you trend toward the closet, jailhouse, and finally gas chamber.

Because you can't let homosexuals exist and also not let them be legitimized.

Something about the human heart yearning to be free...can't squelch that, mah friends...

At least, not in a democracy.

Yay Democracy!

brett Swanson said...

Oh, and if your Church doesn't want to marry gay people, that's fine with me...

It's the government we're talkin' 'bout here folks!

Kirby Olson said...

How do you explain the enormous numbers of CALIFORNIANS WHO voted against it, Brett?

Is it just hate?

Now many many states (over 20, I think) have laws against gay marriage.

Only about three favor it.

I have one dear friend who is gay, and a few others.

I think it would be better for her to be married. And wouldn't hurt the world at all.

The church is fighting over this within itself.

I don't think the people at the church who are against it are hateful. They just love God, and they think this is what God is saying, and so to love God, they want to be in harmony with Him.

It's a big deal.

Don't you get anything like that from your church, Brett?

Of course there are a lot of younger people in the church who want to throw out all the old rules and let in S/M, sex with animals, and so on, too.

It's kind of like letting hope out of Pandora's box without also letting all chaos out.

I thin the old guard believes that it will result in pure chaos.

I think several Lutheran societies already have it: Sweden does, I think.

It would be intreesting to go through acceptance rates by denomination, and then by other standards.

Many people see life as meaningless now, except for whatever physical pleasures you can get.

but I think any pleasure that's not a pleasure in the eyes of eternity is actually not a blessing.

I'm really confused on this issue.

Perhaps this summer I'll read some more on it.

G. M. Palmer said...

You know,

When one dog (or rabbit, as mine do) humps another dog of the same sex, the humpee never seems to enjoy it much.

In fact, the humpee generally tries to bite the living fuck out of the dominant humper.

Perhaps because the humpee is being raped.

I mean, I dunno. Certainly all homosexual sex in Bonobos has been observed as part of a power struggle.

Perhaps dolphins bugger each other out of sheer joy -- but dolphins (again) have been filmed gang-raping each other.

Then, as Kirby says, some animals have the narsty habit of eating their own kind.

Perhaps we should look away from animals and

um

to God? for inspiration on behavior.

As such, the problem with homosexuality is not its existence -- one can choose to fancy whatever one chooses -- but the attempt to pass homosexuality off as the norm. It's simply not (I suppose this makes me a heterosexist. Good -- I am also anthropocentric.).

And, furthermore, if the act is a sin -- like say theft (hard to prove whackin the jimmy is a sin, actually) -- then it is not in the church's (or, frankly, the government's) position or interest to give its citizens/members permission to engage in such behavior.

duh.

oh and language like "the right side" is combative and counterproductive. I suppose some posters here would agree with the militant leftist Kirby heard. . .

Kirby Olson said...

Brett, it's good of you to raise the issue, and to do it politely, while tapping your fingers and wishing we would all die sooner than later.

The thing is that hatred has always been on both sides.

The surrealists, who were mostly against homosexuality, already hated the church in the 20s. Benjamin Peret, for instance, spit on Catholic priests.

Hatred over an obstacle of some kind is probably just as common coming from the left as from the right. I don't think Rick Warren hates gay people.

A lot of gay people hate Rick Warren.

The people who were pro-gay during the Proposition 8 run-up were extremely hostile in many cases, even kicking down elderly people and spitting on them, according to some news reports.

Mostly, admittedly, on Fox News. No one else seemed to consider it important.

But I think that many Christians see gayness as a perversion in the eyes of God, and to accept it would be tantamount to sealing a neighbor's fate in Hell. Out of love, they won't accept it.

That might be bizarre to you and to the secular left in general, but we have to try to understand what's really going on and not put it down to simple hatred.

Hatred is a negative emotion.

But I think the real animating issue is a love for God.

St. Paul was clearly against homosexuality of every kind.

Jesus doesn't really remark on the phenomenon. The OT has lots of statements against it.

Nero and Caligula were for it.

There are all kinds of eddies in this debate. To find some compromise you have to see your opponents as basically operating on goodwill, not on hatred.

There are probably some haters, but Christian leaders are mostly very loving. The leaders of the left are very hateful, on the other hand, and they are projecting their hatred on to anyone who doesn't immediately agree with them.

The surrealists were a lot like that. They saw the church as hateful to a great extent.

Philippe Soupault was one of the few to try to see something decent in everyone, including in Catholics. He was a good friend of the Catholic novelist Georges Bernanos. That was quite rare among the surrealists, who were mostly real haters, and monsters, if you weren't on their side.

Soupault on the other hand was surprisingly polite, and well-behaved, especially as he grew up a little, and got out of his early 20s.

brett Swanson said...

I tried my best to wink (sometimes literally) when using terms like 'the right side,' or whatever I actually said -

And while I started off saying that JH hates gay people (which may be true, given that they're basically equivalent to child molesters in his eyes), I turned the language to 'hateful' after.

I don't think that people in California hate gays. Not 52%, anywho...

Their views are, however, hateful.

One could imagine those who supported slavery yet did not hate blacks.

(the above analogy is about holding hateful views without hating...not about comparing degree of oppression)

And yes, we should not turn to nature for our moral guidance. JH seems to think we should, or something. He confuses me when he does that...

I'm not waiting around Wishing you'll die sooner or later - I just know that enough older people Will die sooner or later, so that, Eventually, this sort of thing will be behind us.

I'd much rather it came sooner and through reasoned debate, compassion, and a renewed understanding of the separation of church and state when it comes to imposing religious mores through law...

But, failing that, Death will come along and save the day sooner or later.

There are assholes on the left And the right.

I live in places where I hear conversations betwixt folks from both sides, and they can oft be nasty in both directions.

MIchael Moore and Rush Limbaugh are Both douchebags.

Whenever someone praises either of 'em without irony, I know there's a hater deep in thurr.

Homosexuality is not a sin like theft.

One person is not being unwillingly involved in the sin.

If it's a sin, it's a sin like premarital sex and masturbation might be sins.

The worst sin of all is to pray to gods other than God.

I really, really hope that doesn't become illegal too!

You can be against gay marriage.

While supporting gays right to marry.

Just as you can be against atheism.

While supporting atheists right to non-belief.

Kirby Olson said...

Brett, your last four lines were marvelously paradoxical, could you explain them, or was this fun on your part again? I like how you're quite game, and are showing a lot of flexibility.

The debate is really ticklish, and causes lots of people to go from zero to sixty in half a second. It's a lot better to just remain immobile, and listen, and say something, without hoping to have the last word.

G. M. Palmer said...

Or you can believe that marriage is not a right -- merely a tool of the state.

jh said...

actually the monastery is a haven for extremely talented people extremely talented musicians extremely talented scholars extremely talented administrators and some extremely talented craftsmen
the fact that we are a group of pathetic sinners is secondary or no wait maybe that is the most important thing

in no way do i state a preference for any variety of sexual perversion or deviance

i tried to read andre gide and i could not and the whole sexual thing wore pretty thin on me after awhile with the beats...i didn't like lord byron's poetry and i have little taste for any of the literature which tries to artsify the fact of human lapses into sexual dreariness and slime...but that's different than learning to accept or even like other people

whereas the matter concerning the guy who left his family and took up with a lover....i'd be in favor of establishing social constraints against something like that....make it so there'd be real consequences for leaving your family for a personal sex adventure

the notion of adultery in the 10 commandments implies any form of sexual practice outside of marriage

i may have diminished the importance of the vagina in suggesting only one thing
actually the whole function is quite complex...but the natural design has but one objective

it's a very bad idea to accord a political philosophy such as democracy the qualities and powers of a religious doctrine...that's been tried before in recent decades
and the results where horrific

the wisest of democrats knows that the necessary wisdom on any issue may well reside in the minority opinion

children act out their curiosities in very overt and reckless ways...it shouldn't be like that but in today's hyped-up communication circus there's bound to be some innocent victims...what happens when you get a child who thinks he or she is much older and smarter than he or she really is and an adult who hasn't grown up yet or can't and their on the same computer program...gee let's hope we live in a society that takes care of that

i recall trying to councel a young man actually only 14 who had convinced a young girl 13 to be his lover and they were fully engaged...the young man was indignant like what right did i a monk have to tell him about anything in life...the girl swore she loved him...what a scene...they were both asked to leave school...i don't know what else could be done in a small private school....maybe it should've been a better secret

in another instance when i was a faculty resident in the dorms a young college man was insisting that i put up a sign on my door that my room was a safe room for "gay" students who felt harassed...i wouldn't do it...i'd never heard of a case of sexual harassment of a person based on their social identity...there'd been some drunk rape charges by students and some foul language complaints but i didn't have anything on my door that claimed it to be a safe haven for co-eds fleeing the sharp claws of boymen/wolves...needless to say i was villified by the "group" promoting the signs...and oo that really really hurt

i respect your willingness to go to bat on this issue, brett

if by granting the right of people of the same gender to unite in marriage satisfies the desire for legitimacy for those people yet manages to alienate and infuriate those who oppose it all can it be said that democratic justice has taken place???

if there existed more cohesion in society....more of a sense of real community...the problem would be much less significant

i'm at odds with so much that passes for worthwhile at odds with so much we take for granted in the culture we share
this issue is really quite minor

i'm far more interested in the strategies for pilgrimage

a practiced social sense of decency and a knowledge of sexual vulnerability and the oftimes insane thrusts of people into that domain was known long before Jesus Christ...it all took on new meaning with that guy...but jews in particular had (and still have)a reverence for marriage and the general safety of women and children...most tribal traditions are marked with an elevated sense of the vulnerability of the young

all sexual energy is directed naturally toward the sustaining of life...that it gets misdirected and misappropriated seems inevitable...but we needn't honor that

democracy does not gaurantee that people are going to make the effort to be virtuous

i share kirby's fear that a new form of totalitarianism is taking hold...the exceptions are the rule

jh said...

the actual context for seperation of church and state was not that religious values would be kept from legal considerations but that the state would be expected to keep out of religious business...the founding fathers fully admitted and welcomed the moral context of faith as a place where right and wrong and the common good were to be discerned

grace builds upon nature

j

Kirby Olson said...

Now I understand JH on the vagina -- it's not part of nature, which Brett thinks JH is saying, it's part of God's design.

Therefore, JH remains coherent. He's not switching from nature back to theology. He's on theology the whole time.

I think marriage was originally a contract between a couple and God, with the church as mediator, and witness.

Now marriage is a contract between a couple and the state, with some sort of public official as the witness, and legitimator of the contract.

Part of the contract is that your kids will go to war for the state, or for God, or that was understood. Now with the idea of gay marriage, that part of the contract is null and void.

GM won't like that part of the contract, and I suppose that there are all kinds of Anabaptists who wouldn't, but I think that used to be a given.

Now of course we no longer have a draft or mandatory military so the whole thing is less clear. The contract is very unclear.

But in Christian thought marriage is at the very center of society. It's the first order.

Obviously if God denies homosexuality (as he does in Leviticus, and as St. Paul does), then no contracts will his true designatees sign that permit that.

You can wonder why that's fair, etc. But I don't think God has to answer.

The state does, though.

But then there's the problem: if the church seems to be an adamant bully, in which love is no part of it, naturally many will turn their back on it, and the edifice of the west will crumble.

There's a lot of things to worry about in that crumbling. Do we really want to get rid of democracy and reinstitute cannibal kings like Nero and Tiberius, whose word is law, and there is no other currency of authority, and if you go against the God-king, you die?

G. M. Palmer said...

There's a lot of things to worry about in that crumbling. Do we really want to get rid of democracy and reinstitute cannibal kings like Nero and Tiberius, whose word is law, and there is no other currency of authority, and if you go against the God-king, you die?

Kirby,
do you imagine that we already haven't?

brett Swanson said...

I wrote the following earlier, before Kirby's post, but couldn't get it up due to internet problems -****************

My last four lines were rather literal, I think -

This should be clear to you once you remember, Kirby, that you've darn near converted me to a Two-Kingdomsish system.

People here are talking about legislating sin.

Sin as in 'what the bible says is bad.' In different words, perhaps, but same idea...

To put it mildly yet bluntly.

WRONG.

Legislation can't be about sin -

It has to be about freedom.

Because, for instance, being an atheist, or onanist, or Muslim is sinful from a Christian perspective.

Yet, as a nation, as a Government that is separate from the Christian Church, we legitimize Muslim marriages and Hindu Temples and Atheist enclaves by either allowing them to exist or even, gosh darn it, giving 'em tax-free status!

Whether or not homosexuality and/or homosexual marriage are Okay in terms of CHRISTIANITY is one thing.

A different argument.

Let the Cathoilcs and Lutherans and Episcopalians and Evangelicals go at it with each other and with themselves about That THEOLOGICAL debate...

Whether or not they're okay in terms of the government is another concept and question and, perhaps, a different answer Which, if we are Lockean liberals, Must be 'yes!'

What it comes down to is that a religious more is being used to restrict individual freedom.

You can go along and believe that eating food from animals with cloven hooves is sinful.

That's fine. That's dandy. You have the right to believe that.

But you can't say that the government should therefore make cloven-hooved food illegal.

The principles of what the government is allowed to allow and allowed to disallow, where they are allowed to make distinctions, should be clear - it has to do with individual freedom.

You are free to masturbate and think about naked women to whom you are not married (a sin).

You are not free to fondle a woman who doesn't want you to (a sin that impedes upon anothers' freedom).

You may be against masturbation - but I really really hope you don't want it to be illegal!


The fight against homosexual marriage comes down to religious belief, tradition, and/or personal disgust...

Upon just these things laws cannot be built.

There must be more! There must be someone's freedom at stake!!!

If there is not, America weeps and wails and falls down crying and the maggots eat her flesh.


So you can be against Modernism, but support someone else's right to be a modernist.

You can be against surrealism, but support another's right to be a surrealist.

You can be against Cougars, but support their right to marry men 20 years their junior (as long as those men are of legal age, an age where they are able to make sound decisions. Go Ashton!)

You can be against masturbation, but support others' right to masturbate.

You can be against gay marriage, but support others' right to marry gayly.


Oh, and for the Record, I actually think that the government should not be involved in 'marriage,' a term that I think applies to a contract between two people and God.

The government should be involved with Civil Unions (a contract between two people and the government), and whether a church wants to up the ante and grant the status of 'married' is up to the church.

However, being that the government is involved with 'marriage,' it needs to be either all conscious consenting adults or none.

At this point, homosexuals in California cannot be married, regardless of whether or not their church thinks they should be.

That shit's gross!

****************

Now back to the present -

You're right Kirby. God doesn't have to answer the 'why' question.

The State does.

When JH uses the term 'Natural Law,' he should instead simply say 'God's Law.'

Using the term 'Natural Law' is a twisting of language employed to make it seem like there's something 'universal' about the concept beyond the confines of a specific religion's beliefs.

Again, we can not outlaw things because they are for or against 'God's Design' or 'God's Law.'
For one, whose God? And for two, which God's Design and/or Law?

That is theocracy, and deprives humans of their liberty.

And Kirby - once again (maybe I answered this above) it's scary to say that if God denies X then followers of God have to vote to make X illegal.

That's one-kingdom thinking!

Those followers then say that only those who believe and behave as I would have them can live under this government.

That sounds pretty awful t' me.

Kirby Olson said...

Democratic governments are determined by the will of the people. If people wish to vote that gay marriage should be legal, then it should be.

There's no other way to legislate it.

And if they do, they do.

That's all.

In the church, it should be up to each denomination. Again, it's a matter of what the membership wants.

The people decide.

We do need to make universalist arguments that it should be accepted, but I'm not certain that we can always persuade someone else of the truth.

We couldn't persuade GM for example that slavery and working at Wal-Mart were substantially different.

We couldn't persuade the reparations guy that reparations are a bad idea.

Questions will always remain open, and things do change.

But I don't believe in the progressive notion of history that things will just keep getting better. Communists think they are going to end up as the last moment in history, and if that's true, then American history is going to regress from one of individual liberties, and freedoms, to one of autocratic and dictatorial fiat as mandated by a closed one-party elitist kook squad.

Brett -- you're my first convert to two kingdoms!

Now there are two of us!

You can always hoist me on that petard, because I keep going back to it. Exactly what it means is still hotly debated, but separation of church and state is a big part of it!

Even my most rigorous Lutheran acquaintance believes that what the people decide can go in terms of gay marriage. But you got to get the votes. You shouldn't just dictate it, and kill anybody who doesn't go along.

Questions have to remain eternally open, not only in the humanities but also in the sciences.

jh said...

brett
for an understanding of natural law we have to think of the perceptions of nature before say the "enlightenment"

natural law would need little or no explantion to people who live close to nature
they know actions and they know consequences because nature has told them thus has showed them

there are phases of the moon
there are seasons
there are mating dances
there are basic simple facts of nature
that is all that is meant by natural law

we have the power to alter those simple facts
we have learned to tweek nature
but the natural laws are what have enabled man to harness the power of nature and to destroy nature
man often has misread the laws or chosen to ignore the basic simple facts

the violation of natural law regarding homosexuality would sound something like this
the anus is not meant by its very design to be an organ or an orifice involved in sexual reproduction...the penis has no business going in there

same gender sexual action cannot lead to pregnancy

therefor the choice is made
perhaps preceded by strong inclination
but a choice is made to be sexual in a way that does not lead to reproduction
if that choice is made then it stands to reason that to somehow bend the choice around to say well i still have the right to have children seems to me to be fucking with nature
and humans have proven themselves quite capable of doing that

freedom isn't something simply gauranteed by a political system or a government
the jewish people learned their tradition of freedom by adherence to torah
freedom is an essential part of being christian really what it is all about
we are free to the extent that we are willing to die with christ

in amerika we suffer from the illusion that freedom can be granted and not earned
it is a seeming contradiction but we are only free insofar as we honor our commitments and responsibilities and we live up to the moral and ethical dictates which were hammered out by our forfathers...we're free to challenge all that...but the freedom to do it with grace comes with some arduous study

it's rather silly to presume that merely by the historical fact of stating in the constitution that freedom is gauranteed that human beings will have the wherewithall to know how to live by that freedom

we've made a mess of freedom already
maybe the traditional norms and expectations and commands for living in justice have something to teach us

your arguments and your thinking in general are quite powerful and impressive

the very nature of catholic thinking carries with it the understanding of universal application...where does truth apply to all people equally

you could run through a catechism and get your own sense as to how well we do that

were i to live my christian values perfectly i'd have no use for secular law i'd be above the national laws for my christian values would not permit me to violate any law
alas
i am imperfect

we make a claim for christ being alive and present in this world today...and we live as if he participates with us in our struggles for truth and beauty..it is something i know by faith

i'm signing off here
i'm out of the blogosphere for lent

keeping working all this stuff out
it is important and enjoyable...all of you

i'll check in on you in 40 days and 40 nights

peace

jh

if you wish to email me
i can be reached at
jhansonATcsbsjuDOTedu

Brett Swanson said...

JH - the idea that the perceptions of nature before the enlightenment were homogenous is untrue.

Living close to nature doesn't necessarily lead one to believe that homosexuality is against natural law.

In fact, if you look at societies that live closest to nature, they often have sexual mores and practices that Christianity would view as sinful...

Homosexual sex does not lead to procreation, but the idea that the penis is only to be used for urination and procreation is an assumption based on religious views, not a necessary extrapolation from viewing and experiencing nature.

Science (and, I would say, common sense) teach us that physical and sexual interaction are also important for creating and sustaining emotional attachment and relieving stress.

To clarify where I think you're conflating, JH - It is a law of nature that homosexual sex will not lead to procreation.

It is not, however, a law of nature that the penis shall only be used for urination and procreation.

That is a moral stance taken by the Catholic church et al., based on religious teachings.

I think it's unintentionally disingenuous for you to say that your stances come from 'natural law.'

I think it's also perfectly unhypocritical to want to raise children while also not giving birth to them.

This describes adoption in general. I don't think there's a significant, salient difference between how your argument affects ideas of homosexual adoption and heterosexual adoption.

Anyway, you're off in monkworld, not blogging anymore - so that means I get the last word:-)

Yay!

G. M. Palmer said...

So multiple-partner marriages are kosher?

G. M. Palmer said...

Something relevant from the Anchoress:

“if a Christian entertainer took every opportunity before a mic to proclaim his beliefs, people might justifiably get tired of it. When atheists like Maher can’t resist the opportunity to push his beliefs, why isn’t his incessant proselytizing considered equally as tiresome, rude, inappropriate, insensitive and offensive? Why is it not even seen as proselytizing, when it clearly is? And if he is so sure of what he does not believe, why does it haunt him so? He doth protest too much.”

One answer to that, of course, is that whenever one encounters something that reveals the worst of oneself to oneself, one tries to push that thing as far away as one can. We all do that; it’s human nature. But Dinesh D’Souza gets even closer to it:

It’s not as if the atheist objects to the resurrection or the parting of the sea; rather, it is Christian morality to which atheists object, particularly Christian moral prohibitions in the area of sex. The atheist looks at all of Christianity’s “thou shalt nots”—homosexuality is bad; divorce is bad; adultery is bad; premarital sex is bad—and then looks at his own life and says, “If these things are really bad, then I’m a bad guy. But I’m not a bad guy; I’m a great guy. I must thus reinterpret or (preferably) abolish all of these accusatory teachings that are putting me in a bad light.”

brett Swanson said...

Assigning to all atheists one set of reasons for atheists being atheist is incorrigible.

I will not corrige it!

I've always disliked that sort of approach - creating a straw man out of the idea of why others believe what they do, claiming that all people of a certain belief system believe for exactly the same reason, and then attacking -

intellectually dishonest, or unintentionally fallacious.

Jacques Albert said...

D'Souza's quite right in his characterization of a class of aggressive and proselytizing atheist, as fits the Anchoress's description of the low and obnoxious comic Bill Maher. This class delights in offending others, particularly when they can achieve this at no cost to themselves or their fortunes. It's hubris or superbia that fuels their animus. Of course some are atheists for other reasons. I don't think D'Souza, the Anchoress, or GM would deny this, and if so, brett's use of "all" and "exactly the same reason" in his response to GM's post reveals a scarecrow of his own--"intellectually dishonest, or unintentionally fallacious."

Jacques Albert said...

brett, I must "corrige" you on the following (call it pedantic) point:

when you say you will not "corrige it!"--"it," namely, what you assert as assigning one reason for categorizing a class of atheists' points of view--your neologism derives from the Latin "corrigere," or "to correct" or "lead straight," (heh, heh) which you plainly aim to do, so perhaps your choice of words here leaves something to be desired?

Rest assured that when my generation dies off and yours ascends, no one should be troubled by fussy Latin etymologies, though that could be a while. The surer counter would be to get yourself a Wheelock Latin grammar (like Kirby) and to learn the adages of Cato the Elder (not but to mention the pithy Varro) par coeur. Then you'd spare yourself the lingustic embarrassment of saying you're not correcting even while correcting.

Brett Swanson said...

"it is Christian morality to which atheists object, particularly Christian moral prohibitions in the area of sex. The atheist..."

Not 'These atheists' or 'Some Atheists' or 'Atheists Like Maher.'

It is 'atheists.'

And then the use of the phrase 'The atheist' that tags a sort of representative idea of the atheist as being the target...

If I say 'humans are sinful,' I expect you to interpret that to mean 'all humans are sinful.'

It's on the part of the speaker to add qualifications if qualifications are intended.

In this case, they didn't even Seem to be intended...

Oh, and RE: corrige.

Yeah. You're right. I suppose should've said 'intolerable.' (or 'But I will corrige you anyway!!!)

Mah bad. It was late, and I don't view these blogments as holy repositories of linguistic perfection the way you pretend to so you can change the subject;-)...

Though I do like the word 'corrige.'

Now I can write a poem about pourridje ;-) and make a rhymey!

Or maybe that will be my suerhero name -

The Corriger.

(I meant to type superhero, but had a typo, and now I'm keeping it, because the Corriger is also a Lawyer).

brett Swanson said...

Oh...AND it IS things like 'the resurrection' and the parting of the sea that many atheists - specifically Bill Maher - often object to.

So the statement's double-oodly wrong!

G. M. Palmer said...

There's object to and then there's object to.

Maher doesn't have a problem taking things on faith [that is, as received knowledge](that people like him, or think he's funny, for instance -- or that love exists -- not to mention all sorts of scientific things he hasn't proven for himself).

He does, however, have a problem with being told he's a naughty boy.

The FSM/magic sky wizard stuff is just clutter (and inaccurate clutter) to obfuscate the real problem.

Brett Swanson said...

So what you're saying, G.M., is that when the atheist says the atheist has problems with the supernatural/incredible/unbelievable aspects of God (like the resurrection, et al.) the atheist's really doing so just to cover the atheist's dislike of its moral strictures?

I mean, you can Say this, or Believe this, but that's just one big assumption about why another person is the way that person is.

I just don't like that approach, usually...

I mean, you just believe in Christ because you're weak and naive and indecisive and can't think for yourself.

That much is obvious.

All the other intellectual hullabaloo is just obfuscation and non-thinking posing as high-mindedness.

G. M. Palmer said...

See, Brett, this is why I was ignoring you. You can't prevent yourself from ad hominem attacks.

No, I believe I was specifically referring to Maher.

 
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