I have been driving since I was 14, but I rarely think about cars. It's not something that interests me. They are a vehicle to get me some place, and as such, I do not think about them in any lyrical way. A poem is also a vehicle, but I have greater expectations from poems. I want a smooth ride, but I also want to end up some place magical. With cars, I want to get to the store, and I want a bump-free ride, and I want the car to not break down every three weeks. Right now we have a Dodge Caravan from 1998. It's rusting through on both side doors, and the back door has a hole in it from where it rusted through. It bumps a bit more than I would like, but it's paid for, and so, every day we drive it, is a day we're not paying a monthly.
But lately it's been breaking down a bit more, and it now has 180,000 miles. Should I nurse it through another year, or should I call it a day?
My wife is on a mom-board, and put the question to them. Some of these moms are fairly well-heeled, but some are just scraping by like us. Some have lawyers and doctors for husbands. I am only a college professor. All the well-heeled moms insist that Honda Odyssey is the best car. Dodge Caravan is a "POS" in their terminology. But if we got another one, for say, 4000 or 5000 dollars, for one with less than 40,000 miles, and if we had good luck with it, it would be far cheaper than getting a 2005 Honda Odyssey, which seem to start at about 14,000 dollars. It means I'd have to put 9000 dollars into a Dodge Caravan before I even hit the starting line of buying a Honda Odyssey or a Toyota Siena, or what have you.
There is also the greater issue of whether or not to buy American. American cars, for whatever reason, are pretty crummy. But they are also relatively cheap, and the local garages know how to work on them (they see plenty of Dodge Caravans, and the parts are plentiful, and some people say these cars are steadily improving). Since we're not buying new, no matter what, does it even matter if we're buying a foreign car? It's like buying a used book. The royalties don't go to the author, they go to the bookseller. At any rate, what follows is a fairly long comment stream that my wife's question provoked. Basically, I want quality. Why it is that American factories produce garbage cans on wheels is not really my problem. Why it is that Japan, or at least Toyota, produces such good, durable vehicles, is also not my question. Although it is a question, it's not one that I intend to answer here, nor is it one that I think President Obama can answer. But unless that question is answered, it is obvious that the American automobile industry cannot turn around. At any rate, check out this comment stream. It is long, but there is an overwhelming consensus, based on my wife's question:
We're looking to buy a used minivan. DH has heard that Toyota Siena
is a great one, but wanted me to ask my "mom board" for experiences
and recommendations on what else to possibly look for. We're both
totally clueless! So, which minivans have a good reputation for being,
well, good? Thanks for any help!
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I think the most recommended as far as reliability and quality are
Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. They will be your most expensive choices,
too.
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Tomorrw we're going to look at Honda and Hyundai. We have a Toyota
Sienna and love it but the lease is up at the end of April.
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How used are you looking at? If it's in the recent few years, top
recommendations have been Toyota, Honda and Hyundai.
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Don't buy a Ford Windstar - biggest POS ever, not that I am bitter or anything
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Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai
I love my Sienna, it is our second one. We will probably get
something different in the next 2 yrs. My DH wants me to get a
Suburban since we will have 5 kids, and i do not mind driving them. I
just want to stick with a van since the suburban will not fit in the
garage.
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Love our Odyssey (that is, as much as I love driving a minivan).
We have had 2 and not had a single problem.
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I bought I used Sienna and love it!!
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We have a Toyota Sienna and love it.
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Amen sisters to not getting a Ford Windstar, ours was a piece of junk,
we also have a Dodge Caravan, and I would not recommend getting that
either....
We just bought a used Honda Odyssey and honestly other than a Sienna,
they just don't get better than that. Shop around, we got a loaded
Honda Odyssey that was a leased vehicle so all the scheduled
maintenance was done on it, it has leather, all the options and a DVD
player which my kids love, we got it for under 10,000...Toyota and
Honda are more, but in the long run I don't know ANYONE who has owned
a Honda that has had problems, my best friends' Honda is still running
at 300,00 miles if that tells you anything! Good luck!!!
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We have a Honda Odyssey and love it. This our second Honda, and I
won't own any other brand now.
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we have a Honbda Odyssey and love it! It is GREAT!
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Another vote for the Sienna!
We bought ours used, from a co-worker of mine, it's a 2000. It was
6ish years old then, with 80,000 miles. It's now 9 years old, with
125,000 miles, and I have NO complaints. The alarm on it just died
this week, so I will have to look into that. I'm very diligent about
oil changes, maintenance, and if something breaks, I get it fixed
quickly. I believe it's worth it to give the vehicle a longer life.
This was my first Toyota, and I'm leaning towards only buying Toyotas
from now on. My BFF has a Honda Odyssey, she got hers brand new, and
loves it!
And, another downer vote for the Ford Windstar. My co-worker bought
hers brand new several years ago, and lots of stuff died quickly on
it. She tells everyone that Ford does not stand behind their products,
and she'll never buy another Ford.
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I have a 2005 sienna and love it. I bought it when it was a year old
and that saved me over $12000. I wanted a certified one so that it
was covered should anything go wrong (I also bought an extended
warranty)... anyhow...I've had to do nothing but regular
maintenance. I bought it with 15k miles on it and now it has almost
60k.
My last three cars were toyotas too (paseo, camry, and 4runner). We
are big Honda and Toyota fans.
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We're on our second Dodge Grand Caravan and I love it! Dollar for
dollar it was the best we could afford in our locale. The foreign
vehicles were just too few and too much. The only reason we have a
2nd one already was the first was involved in an accident and the sun,
moon, and stars lined up for us to upgrade to much better w/o more
money.
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Odyssey fan here. Be sure to test drive them both. Odyssey drives
like a car. I also prefered the dash setup on the Odyssey. But we
love our Toyota too. DH has a 13 year old Camry that is still going
strong. Happy shopping!
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We had a Ford Winstar and it was 4 years old when we got rid of
it...it was going downhill quickly and it wasn't even at 60000 miles
yet. We traded it in for a Toyota Sienna and I LOVE it!!!!!!!!!!
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We love our Hyundai Entourage. I don't know why, but I have never seen
another one on the road. It has all the bells and whistles and was
significantly cheaper than a Sienna or Odyssey with few options. And
the service has been stellar. We may even get another Hyundai when we
replace DH's car next year.
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Yes, same goes for Dodge Caravan - huge POS, especially if you want to
drive your car for more than 2 years without major repairs.
If I were in the market; I'd go with a Honda Odyssey
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We are looking to get a minivan here too in the near future and we are
going to either get a Honda or Toyota. None of the others got very
good ratings for holding up long term. We are the type that keep our
cars until they basically fall apart because we hate having a car
payment so we need something very reliable.
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We've been Nissan buyers for years. 2 Xterras and the Quest. No
problems with any of them.
I agree though to not get the Ford Windstar or consider even the
Chryler Town & Country. Both are a POS and give off so many problems.
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Another Odyssey fan here. We love ours. I recommend the Honda or Toyoto
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We have a 2007 Honda Odyssey EX-L with dvd and love it! We test-drove
both the Odyssey and the Sienna and preferred the way the Odyssey
drove. I would totally get it again, it rocks.
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Love my Odyssey.
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WE love our Honda Odyssey. We test drove the Toyota and the Honda and
preferred the Honda. Good Luck
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Another Honda owner here. I love my Odyssey.
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my husband is an insurance agent and we researched vans a lot before
deciding. Wanted something reliable and with good crash testing. We
have a honda and a toyota....recommend both highly
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I thought the only minivan out there was the Honda Odyssey!
We're on our second, and will never have anything else. (And all our
cars before that were Hondas, too, so you could say we believe in the
brand!) We've also convinced 5, no 6! other family members/friends to
buy an Odyssey and every one of them says they'll never buy any other
brand.
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I have several friends who have Odessys and they all love them so I if
I were to get another van that would be what I would get.
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I have a 2004 Toyota Sienna....it has almost 100K miles on it and is
just now starting to nickel and dime us to death The A/C is beginning
to have issues and I guess this is a well known problem on some of the
earlier model (2004 & 2005) Siennas.
Otherwise it's been a great little van, no major mechanical problems
and very reliable!
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Last week, we bought a 2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L. I really like it!
17 comments:
As of right now my wife and I don't have any children and I get to drive my old F150 from 1991 that still runs great and is approaching 210,000 miles. My wife on the other hand drives a toyota corrola that we have put many miles on driving back and forth between Utah and my mother's house in Arizona and my Father's house in southern Utah. Her car is great but so far the Truck(Pumba as we affectionalty call him) has given us more than what he is worth plus he makes its so that I don't have to ride a bike anymore.
A small part of me will surly die though when we have to get a mini van. It will happen. I know it will. My wife is already baby hungry. You just lose a certain coolness when you finaly have to get a minivan. A small part of what makes us men goes out the window when we cram our faimlies into them. It is not something I am looking forward to. I would much rather get a motorcycle.
Oh, I like being a dad! I love it! It's made my life meaningful, and it's the best thing that's ever happened to me. I love being a van driver. I feel like I arrived when the kids arrived. Maybe some part dies, but a better part by far gets born. Or so I have felt! There's nothing like looking in on them sleeping. It's the most beautiful thing on earth. No sunset, no painting, no poem, can ever compare to it.
Lol Kirby. There is a giant part of me that can't wait to be a Father because I can only glimpse how wonderful it will be. There is another part to be honest that exists that is a small selfish child that wants all of the attention.
Probably within the next year and a half though I will hopefully become the father of a wonderful, smiling, eating, sleeping and pooping machine that will be one of the best things to ever happen to me.
So I didn't mean to come across thatI hate children or don't want them. Its just that I'm not looking forward to driving a minivan... Maybe a Suburban but they get horrible gas mileage. So I don't know. To be truthful I will most likly nod my head up and down and say, "Yes Dear," as my wife picks out our next car.
I drive fifteen passenger vans filled with children all of the time.
It's part of me job.
But your post does raise an interesting question, especially for our more conservative viewers.
In a global economy, if you let the market forces play out, and it ends up that American companies suck at doing something, whereas foreign companies don't suck, shouldn't you just let the American companies die? Because in a competitive business world, they suck and don't deserve to exist.
I have a lexus from 1991 that's a piece of crap now - My mom has a lexus from 1994 that still runs and looks like new. But she's better at taking care of things...
But the fam's Ford Explorer from 1992 has held up pretty well over time. Just a bit of a guzzler. !
I very much agree that if a company is notprofitable it should fail. Eventhough it would put millions out of work. It sucks but so does balancing my checkbook everymonth. I wish I could millions of dollars because I made poor choices. I will however stop here and not descend into the toliet metaphors of wishing in one hand.
But your post does raise an interesting question, especially for our more conservative viewers.
In a global economy, if you let the market forces play out, and it ends up that American companies suck at doing something, whereas foreign companies don't suck, shouldn't you just let the American companies die? Because in a competitive business world, they suck and don't deserve to exist.
That's not an interesting question at all.
We should let them fail.
But one of the biggest reasons (apart from a lack of leadership) that the "big three" are flopping around like dead fish is UNIONS.
Which posits an interesting question for our more liberal commentators:
If unionization is killing an industry (say, the Big Three automakers or public education), all the while protecting unproductive/unvaluable workers, then what is the point of a union?
Oh, and Kirby --
pre-1998 Volvos are very cheap to work on if you do the work yourself.
I understand that you say you don't know what to do. They sell books on the subject, however. For $3,000 you can buy a great condition Volvo 940 and all three manuals -- haynes, chilton, and bentley.
They'll teach you everything you need to do.
Car repair is much better for you than maffermatics.
Interesting that liberals tend to blame employers and conservatives tend to blame employees.
Says something about the basic principles of each group, don't it.
I think both are probably to blame! Weee!
I do think it's an interesting question, G.M. - with all of the conservatives' pro-American bias, it would seem that they might not cotton to letting major American businesses collapse.
Rush, for instance, isn't too keen on letting those companies fail - he just wants them to get the bailout without any strings attached.
I think the most important thing is to make sure that businesses don't become so huge that they are 'too big to fail.' But since that hasn't happened, we have to deal with what we've been dealt, and that might mean propping up businesses that, in a Platonic world, would not deserve bein' propped.
Because as much as, in principle, I don't like the idea of letting unprofitable companies survive, I also don't like being dogmatic about it and misapplying that principle to the detriment of our entire economy.
I must say, though, that the recent shenanigans betwixt the auto-industry and the government do have me a bit worried.
On the one hand, it makes sense that the government would need companies to meet certain conditions before those companies would receive bailout money.
On the other hand, I don't like the government having so much of a say in how a business is run...
my KNEW truck a 1986 F-150 the 'stretch' cab
a little rusty but a good runner except for the oil leak
it is grat.
and passes the emission's test every other year...
HEY did you say a 2005
HONDA goes for $14,000????
that's a 10 year old vee-hickle!
does it have a radio?
I wonder what a "good" used car is going for...
say a 1962 Bel Air station wagon?
but, where to get parts? service?
for a pre-computer vehicle...
The Volvo idea interests me, in fact. But I am a complete klutz with mechanics, but as you say, it could be good for me. There's one on sale here in town on Main St. It was used as a hearse I think for the funeral parlor. It's quite a shiny and pretty turquoise.
Also, I asked my wife about the spelling errors in the mom's thread, which was something of a scandal. She said they've had spelling wars at the thread, and the moms say they are often holding one or two babies, typing with one hand, while something is screeching at them, and a pot is boiling over, and they just can't be bothered to get every i dotted, every t crossed.
I can understand that.
The volvo in town is a 2001 station wagon of some sort. It has 109 thousand miles and is going for 6500 dollars.
It belongs to the funeral director in town, who's very thin, and a little precise in his speech and habits.
He's probably taken good care of the car.
Dear Lutheran Surrealist,
My paternal grandfather was a Ford dealer in Iowa. But my dad (in later years) swore by Hondas.
I have owned only 4 cars in my life:
79 Honda Accord (dad bought new, gave to me as hs grad gift) Drove it til about 210,000 miles.
92 Honda Prelude. Bought used, drove until about 250,000 (rebuilt engine at 180,000)
94 Ford Ranger. Bought new, paid dirt price of $7,000 cash, brand new....stripped version...put 150,000 miles/no repairs ever.
99 Toyota 4Runner....180,000, only now having some repair issues, but likely a sneaky mechanic behind the cause of some of them.
3 Japanese cars, 1 American. All gave me great performances. And mostly I neglected them.
But onward:
Brett wrote:
"In a global economy, if you let the market forces play out, and it ends up that American companies suck at doing something, whereas foreign companies don't suck, shouldn't you just let the American companies die? Because in a competitive business world, they suck and don't deserve to exist."
Brett: yes, we should let them die. But in your question is the sub-question: Is any company too big to fail? What about the ripple effect? You tend towards liberal thinking, and I tend towards conservative. But I do think there is such a thing as to big to fail....but I would say "fail quickly." What's wrong with softening the landing, allowing the capitalist markets to find a buyer for our Big Three dinosaurs? It may take time, but I would be willing to bet, the sunbelt automakers (who are profitable)would love the market share.
Then Brett said (in response to a comment about unions):
"Interesting that liberals tend to blame employers and conservatives tend to blame employees."
Brett, I'm not trying to pick on you. At the same time you seem to be playing both sides, or at least trying to elicit some debates. But, I have worked as a manager for the Federal Government (Navy and unionized) and I have an extensive background in private sector (not unionized). Unions are a HUGE roadblock to any sort of efficiency. Unions may indeed have a role to play, but they desperately need to update that role, or risk being outsourced. Well....ok, that's already happening.
I'm dismayed by the Unions, because the US is soooooo innovative. Why can't the Unions be innovative too?
WW
p.s. I would like to add that my dad was an aerospace engineer who worked on the Apollo missions....hence I always respected his opinions about Japanese engineering.
Yeah - I am playing both sides.
I don't know enough about the unions to have an informed opinion, to be honest...but my sense is that, yes, they do provide some obstacles to the bottom line as they overreach, going beyond their basic mission which should be to ensure that their members get treated like humans...
But CEOs of the oldentime companies need to grow a pair and learn to adapt.
The Japanese make better, more fuel-efficient cars. That's why the American auto companies are sucking. The CEOs et al. of those companies had a lot to do with that gap.
Take accountability for your actions!
And while I do tend toward liberal thinking, I don't cotton to government becoming involved with running industry. Regulating, yes. Taking control, no.
There are services that I believe the government needs to be heavily involved with...
Military, police, emergency, transportation infrastructure, education, healthcare.
But you step beyond those, and you're in swampy waters.
a good example and an obvious one as to what is about to happen when/with Our Beloved Government
running Big Business is
The United States Postal Office...
now The Simpsons gonna be on the new stamp the higher priced one real comedy/cartoon..
as far as this:
"There are services that I believe the government needs to be heavily involved with...
Military, police, emergency, transportation infrastructure, education, healthcare."
ain't that how Hitler and Moose-oh-Leany and Stalin got the Power?
-name with-held.
Yeah, the schtick of relating something you disagree with to Hitler is an ol' trick that usually doesn't have much sense to it.
Hitler also gained power by helping the economy improve.
So should we therefore seek to destroy the economy in order to not be like Hitler?
What I described is very close to what we have here in America already (minus the healthcare bit, sort of, but we already spend more per capita than anyone and get less back. Why? Check the story out of Austin about how 9 people went to the emergency room almost 3,000 times between them in the past five years). Places like Sweden and Finland and Denmark, those beacons of awesomeness, have the government in control of those things as well.
But I don't want my government to be in control of car manufacturing or, say, the computer industry.
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