Andrea Dworkin writes,
"Men especially love murder. In art they celebrate it. In life, they commit it."
Dworkin was a very popular feminist in her day. Her books sold millions of copies.
Every revolution begins by pointing out the rottenness of those in power. But when they are replaced, the newly empowered are often even worse.
Valerie Solanas is the woman that shot Andy Warhol. Many women at NOW supported this act, which eventually killed one of America's greatest artists (it took him ten years to die from the wound). Solanas wrote,
"As humans have a prior right to existence over dogs by virtue of being more highly evolved and having a superior consciousness, so women have a prior right to existence over men. The elimination of any male is, therefore, a righteous and good act, an act highly beneficial to women as well as an act of mercy.”
Once one demonizes another group, murder swiftly follows. A not-too-close unpacking of Solanas' paragraph reveals that she is a female supremacist.
Neither Solanas nor Dworkin were academics. I don't know if they ever taught in college classrooms, or what the state of academic feminism is at this point across the board. When you read an anti-Marxist feminist like Christina Hoff Sommers, or Daphne Patai, you get the sense that many within the academia are as bad as Dworkin and Solanas. But are they picking on the weakest members of a herd, and arguing that they represent the mainstream of a body of thought? SdB's The Second Sex, which is considered to be the Bible of the field, opens with a call to murder men. I know it's hard to believe, but here's the sentence:
"The proletariat can propose to massacre the ruling class, and a sufficiently fanatical Jew or Negro might dream of getting sole possession of the atomic bomb and making humanity wholly Jewish or black; but woman cannot even dream of exterminating the males" (xxv).
At least as I read the sentence, it appears to be a call to do just that. Within twenty years, Solanas, at least, is thinking that men must be destroyed. And Dworkin, too, who is selling millions of copies of her books, is also thinking about destroying men. To what extent do they represent a tendency within feminism? I find the likes of Solanas and Dworkin to be so upsetting, that I can't read them. And I can't read Katherine McKinnon, who teaches at places like U of Chicago and Harvard, and who often co-authored books with Dworkin. The Wikipedia page on Valerie Solanas gives a brief indication of some of the support she received from the feminist community after she had attempted to murder Andy Warhol:
"Feminist Robin Morgan (later editor of Ms. magazine) demonstrated for Solanas' release from prison. Ti-Grace Atkinson, the New York chapter president of the National Organization for Women (NOW), described Solanas as "the first outstanding champion of women's rights."[6] Another member, Florynce Kennedy, represented Solanas at her trial, calling her "one of the most important spokeswomen of the feminist movement."[6]"
With Ward Churchill, and many other leftists, you get the sense that everybody in the WTC is evil, and should be destroyed, as they are ALL "little Eichmanns." And that they are somehow better, perhaps simply because they say they are. If this isn't dangerous, then what is? I can't read Ward Churchill's work. It's too disturbing. I've read the summaries by the committee called upon to review his work, and those are disturbing enough.
I worry that thought is not what is being presented in many new departments of study on university campuses. It's instead bigotry, which is excused because it's a reversal of the previous bigotry. Naturally, there are some, probably in every one of these areas of study, who stand up against it, and urge instead a sense of community, and equality. Daphne Patai, for instance, in Women's Studies, has argued against the intense bigotry of much of contemporary feminism. But even reading Daphne Patai, for me, is a very harrowing experience, because it hurts to read about minds that have gone so far away from truth.
To think carefully means to think slowly and to reserve judgment until there is proof. Churchill showed in his scholarship that he didn't care about proof, or truth. Careful thinking is difficult, and accurate thinking is almost impossible to achieve, but it's an ideal that should be revered. Locke offered four human rights: life, health, liberty, and property. But he forgot the truest and most important human right: the right to think clearly. I'm not sure if it's a right, or a duty.
Too often, it is one of the first things that disappears in Marxist countries. The only duty is to take the party line. Those that don't, are disappeared.
The Duke 88 group revealed in their witchhunt that they had no care for accurate thinking. Even the District Attorney revealed this lack of a sense of duty to the truth. At least Nifong was sacked. We are used to such parodies of thought in places like Zimbabwe, or in Ceausescu's Romania, where the conclusion has already been reached before the research ever even begins. How can it now happen here, and how can it be defended by Stanley Fish, in the nation's most important newspaper (has the paper always been this bad, or is it now a shadow of its former self?). I don't believe that academia has always been this bad. Maybe it has. Is there any way that our country, and our profession, can reassert the primary necessity of thinking clearly, at least as clearly as possible? A programmatic rethinking of the curriculum should de-emphasize French thinkers (wooly-headed and goofy, the French think of the Marquis de Sade as one of their most important novelists). I'd rather we went back to Aristotle, and continued up through to Locke, and ending with Mary Midgley, in philosophy (bypassing Marx, but indicating a deep swampy pit, in which millions of souls have already been lost).
http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/ward-churchill-redux/
Monday, April 13, 2009
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It's instead bigotry, which is excused because it's a reversal of the previous bigotry.
Thank you, Kirby. I think this sums up what we've (or at least I) have been trying to say to Brett. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
We're still prejudicial and mean-spirited. Just toward different groups.
Right - except this new kind of bigotry isn't the societal or legal norm...
They're blips on the screen compared to the institutionalized and legalized bigotry of the past.
This new bigotry is the exception - back'n then, it was the rule (literally).
Oh G.M., you and your false moral equivalencies!
I'm glad we have Brett to argue with. I wish there was someone else on his side, who was as reasonable as he is being. In Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia) the bigotry has quite simply been reversed, and is as bad as what it replaced, if not worse.
In the Humanities, it depends on the teacher, to an enormous extent.
I can't believe that Churchill, for instance, would ever be fair to those who disagreed with him.
Of course this reverse bigotry has been institutionalized, and especially in schools and institutions of higher learning--how else to explain campus speech codes, institutional grievance industries like gender and ethnic studies departments, "transgender" offices and "outreach" programs, racially segregated dorms and lounges, sexually segregated gyms, racial and sexual preferences in admissions and hiring (openly advertised in "The Chronicle of Higher Ed"), manifold attempts by college administrators to inconvenience or silence conservative students, campus newspapers, speakers, etc. At the U of Michigan, President Coleman even planned legally to challenge the results of the majority-approved Michigan Civil Rights Initiative as it applied to the U of Michigan by spending taxpayer monies to do this! In states that have legally ended racial preferences by referenda, college officials have found new, surreptitious ways to circumvent the spirit of the law (e.g., by discounting SAT or ACT tests, etc.).
And this is only one area of the operation of reverse bigotry. Companies and businesses also are expected to show the government they're serious about increasing minority employment or face legal consequences. Likewise the Justice Department's pressure put on banks to take on multitudes of risky mortgages (many of them from minority buyers) that helped precipitate the present economic crisis. And the continued practice in many cities of accepting higher minority bids for contracts, etc. goes on virtually unchallenged, etc.
Nutters like Churchill aside, all "blips on the screen"?
Yessirree Jacques!
Problems, I agree.
But problems that are not morally equivalent to the humanity-denying practices and views of what came before.
I'm not saying that reverse-bigotry is Good.
I'm not saying it's even Okay.
I'm not saying that 'reverse-bigotry' is necessarily better than 'bigotry.'
I'm saying that, compared with the past, the egregiousness of today's reverse-bigotry just so happens to be less than the egregiousness of the 'bigotry' of 'yesterday.'
Now, I understand how, Personally, many on this board are affected by reverse-bigotry to a greater degree than the general population. I get that.
But reverse-bigotry is more confined (largely to humanities divisions of liberal colleges) and less egregious than the systemic bigotry that came before.
And it's different in kind - the type of reverse-bigotry you've cited, Jacques, just isn't on the same level as "you are not fully human and/or American citizens" that was the ol' bigotry...
So when I say things are 'better,' I don't mean things are 'good,' and that we should stop trying to replace identity-as-value with principles...
Yeah, it'd be nice to have someone else who was a bit left of center. Even someone who was Actually pretty far left, so I wouldn't come off as extreme like I sometimes feel I do...
I'm starting to fear for what you all will do once I head back up into the mountains for the summer - will be starting in May, this time.
It'll be interesting to see what shakes out - there is a lot, for instance, that I bet G.M. and Jacques disagree on, but I don't know if y'all fully realize it, since y'all are both busy agreeing to disagree with me.
The few to the left who've come to the blog have generally come under an alias, and haven't been able to be reasonable. You're pretty reasonable, Brett.
Curtis used to come, and I think he is on the right and the left on many of these issues.
Hanson was supposed to come back after Lent, and Lent is now over, and he was always reasonable, and kind of fun, too.
When he comes back, Sally might come back, too.
Helen Losse, I suspect, is more or less fed up with my viewpoint.
So it looks like you're going to have the hold the fort for a bit.
Until some kind of reinforcements arrive.
But what I would love is to find that I am in fact wrong.
I do believe that there is still a lot of discrimination in the country against women and minorities on an unofficial basis. What's odd about reverse discrimination is that it's often now done on an official basis.
Very few watch the WNBA. Is that a kind of unofficial discrimination?
Should people have to watch the NBA and the WNBA equally?
Shoiuld we make sure that in our reading we read quotas of different kinds of people, on a demographic basis?
I do think that the left has opened lots of interesting new perspectives.
And I'm kind of bored with the right.
I think the Culture Wars are somewhat productive of a new emerging synthesis.
I remember in the 60s when my mom was the only one in the neighborhood who went to work. She was a 1st grade teacher. Many of the neighbors thought it was a scandal that she was working, while having children. I thought it was great, because she had a brain and really wanted to use it.
Now it's more the norm that women are able to work.
So perhaps the radicals are kind of like the bad cop (let's kill all de men), so that normal women will at least get to go to work.
It's hard to be the furthest wingnut on any given topic. Sometimes I have been in that position, and I find it uncomfortable.
That Jacques is willing to present his views here is very helpful to me, because I learn a lot from them, and also he kind of assuages my guilty sense that I'm way too far to the right.
I loved Jacques' recent comment reminding us of the cannibalist tendencies of many supposedly great cultures. Very helpful!
Thanks, Jacques!
At any rate, maybe Hanson will soon get his cleats back on and run us a few poetic tracks up the field, if he still remembers how.
I especially like how he's a Catholic and will do this. It kind of creates interesting swirls. He's also got various points where he goes against the left grain. He doesn't think homosexuality is a good idea, for instance. (Interesting that Curtis Faville is also somewhat against that, at least in terms of it becoming a norm.)
A million viewpoints, with everybody driving everybody oiut of their minds. That's what's needed! That's what will create mental health! Ha ha!
I suspect Brett and I'd agree more in specific cases than our spirited exchanges belie. That's the problem with big, baggy ideas like multiculturalism.
One would have to be deaf not still to hear occasional prejudical remarks from Caucasians who should know better. Same for other ethnic groups, and it's of course liberating to know that dominant majorities have much less power prejudicially to afflict minorities, or better, individuals entitled to full constitutional rights in addition to civil and humane treatment.
I'm often sympathetic to minority opinion, as is Kirby; my most diverting moments in blogging exchanges have been against all odds on lib-left blogsites, though they sometimes couldn't take the heat and just banned me from the site (as Kirby well knows). My own background is pretty bohemian, though I always avoided the irresponsible crazies Kirby sometimes describes here.
On the other hand, when one does scholarship, one has greater responsibilities to be more balanced, judicious, and careful, as Kirby noted. And to revise or even reverse one's judgments in light of contrary evidence. This is what most feminists and Marxists will not do, and mixing scholarly forms and pretensions with extremist social and political advocacy (same for teaching) is irresponsible and corrupt.
However, arguing politics and current issues can be like setting in motion an agonistic perpetual-motion machine that produces an endless efflatus of tu quoques. And I suspect also Brett rather fancies the fun in whipping up a little controversy. Why not?
Tom sometimes provides the farther-left point of comparison, faute de mieux, for Brett, Curtis of late as well, though not as far as Tom. I remember Kirby at several times in the last few years hoping he'd attract a few more rightist voices for adjusting his site's balance. Ebb and flow. Though intelligent, I don't recall anyone as doggedly obnoxious as Max.
Sky Cable last week here in Manila showed three episodes back to back of True Blood, apparently a new vampire series so popular in the U.S. that it was deemed essential watching for the mass of Filipinos on the reservation. Looking forward to three new episodes every Thursday for awhile. Did some googling and saw that the series is based on some vampire novels by a woman named Charlaine Harris who grew up in Mississippi, lives in Arkansas and has set her story in the area of northern Louisiana near Shreveport. The show has an interesting take on race relations in the south and vampirism is used as a means of connecting slave heritage to social and sexual deviance. It's really quite cleverly conceived. The appeal for me is the region in which it's set. Tracing my family history has involved locating the unit in which my great great grandfather served and died. That unit participated in the siege of Vicksburg, the occupation of Little Rock and a mission called the Red River Campaign, a failed effort in 1864 to converge upon and capture Shreveport, a city that was a vital link in the flow of Confederate cotton through Texas to Mexico. Shreveport's history has been neglected and it's nice to see a show that has at long last found a means to bring a glimmer of some of that forgotten history to light.
Are we all in agreement, though, that the plight of the oppressed white male in our society today is lesser than the plight of the oppressed black pre-1960s?
Brett, two wrongs do not make a right, as you know. However, yes, I think that even now -- even in contemporary America -- white males probably still have a better shake than most others, in spite of all the efforts in favor of reverse discrimination (which are abhorrent, albeit rarely actually deadly). In pre-1960s America the likelihood of getting to go to college at all for a black person was less. Most white males still go to college (although the numbers are declining, I imagine it is still well over 50%).
We're just super-sensitives around here, picking up on the zeitgeist, and not entirely grooving on it, is all. Jacques and I are ultra-sensitives! And as for GM -- he's a poet with an actual MFA. He SUFFERS, as poets always do.
Craig, how did you find out about your Civil War ancestor? That's a neat story to find out. I imagine I had Civil War ancestors, especially on my mom's side. How would I go about tracking them down, and reading about their travails?
While we are all in agreement that Children's leukemia is far preferable to adult leukemia, or that partial blindness beats the hell out of total blindness, both are bad.
I think the purpose is to avoid both. And since our actions of the last 60 years have brought us not to clarity, but to a "lesser" darkness, we should not embrace those actions, but figure out where they went wrong and say that we are still doing poorly.
Kirby and G.M. - I am agreeing totally with you here.
So I don't understand.
I started the argument by saying that the effects of the 60s and multiculturalism on our culture have, overall, improved our culture.
That the principles of our founding documents are more manifest now than they were before.
Not that everything is perfect and good, or that we should stop progressing toward perfecting the union by manifesting its foundational principles as much as possible in the actual culture!
Just that now we're partially blind - and shouldn't go back to being blind to fix it!
A unique point that was brought up in a discussion with one of my coworkers was that racism still exists in America its just not on the surface like it was forty years ago.
One of the points my coworker brought up was how many people marry someone outside of their own race or ethnicty. People do marry individuals not of their own race but it is by no mean the norm. This might show some kind of trend below the surface that while we may not be involved in slavery, Jim Crow laws or other forms of racism it is still very evident in our lives.
However the idea of tolerance that is often spoken by many of my liberal professors is lost on them when a student happens to have an opinion or idea that flys in the face of their ivory tower ideals.
I see the basic problem of radical feminism being the age old problem of Matriarchy(yeah I bet thats spelled wrong) vs Patriachry. The question of which sex will rule. With both forms come benefits but a middle ground would be more preferable.
Some races are more likely to marry outside of their race. Asian-American women marry outside their race on a one out of two basis (although this isn't true for Japanese-American women, who marry within the Japanese-American community on a nine out of ten basis), black women marry outside the race on a one out of 25 basis. I read these stats just a few weeks ago, but already can't remember where I found them.
So it differs a lot by community, I think.
So I pulled out the trusty ol google seach engine and I found this data:
White Americans are the least likely to marry interracially, although in absolute terms white Americans are involved in interracial marriages more than any other racial group. 1.9% of married white American women and 2.2% of married white American men have a non-white American spouse. 1.0% of married white American men are married to an Asian American woman, and 1.0% of married white American women are married to a man classified as "other".
3.7% of married African American women and 8.4% of married African American men have a non-African American spouse. 6.6% of married African American men, and 2.8% of married African American women, have a white American spouse. Only 0.1% of married African American women are married to an Asian American man, representing the least represented marital combination.
There is a notable disparity in the rates of exogamy by Asian American males and females. Only 25% of Asian American/White American marriages involve an Asian American male and white American female, and only 15% of Asian American/African American marriages involve an Asian American male and a African American female. 19.5% of married Asian American women and 7.2% of married Asian American men have a non-Asian American spouse.
88% of foreign-born White Hispanic males are married to White Hispanic females. In terms of out-marriage, Hispanic males who identify as White have non-Hispanic wives more often than other Hispanic men. U.S-born White women of non-Hispanic heritage are more likeley to marry Hispanic who identified as some other race (19%) than White Hispanic women (2%). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage
Kirby,
All you really need is your ancestor's name, a pretty good guess about where he lived in 1860 and the number of the regiment that has him on their roll. There were probably only half a dozen regiments actively recruiting in his neighborhood so it's likely to be one of those. Once you've found him on a regimental roster and you are sure it's your ancestor you can obtain service and pension records for him from the National Archive. Olson could be a pretty tricky surname to search. I believe it was the 15th Wisconsin that was comprised almost entirely of immigrants from Sweden and Norway. It's estimated that roughly half of the regiment enlisted as Ole Olson.
Brett,
Neither should we keep taking the drugs that made us partially blind.
That is, what we did didn't work ('cause things are still FUBAR) so we shouldn't keep doing it.
M
I'd be looking for soldiers in my mother's family which had the last name of Wilson and/or Bancroft.
One of them was George Bancroft, who was a Secretary of the Navy and later wrote one of the first histories of America. He was a fairly extreme (by our standards) Calvinist.
I haven't done much in the way of geneology. This tidbit was tossed my way by a maternal uncle.
"That is, what we did didn't work ('cause things are still FUBAR) so we shouldn't keep doing it"
I couldn't agree more, GM.
But we shouldn't go back before That, to the thing
that worked even Less well
than the last thing
that didn't work.
I miss
JH!
JH is AWOL now, since Lent is over. As the Pope of Lutheran Surrealism, I demand his return.
Right Brett, but we can 1) say that there were good (and better) things about the past and 2) mine the past for good ideas/behaviors/sets of guidelines. And 3) criticize the present for what it does poorly or disastrously, even if we have to compare it to the past to do so.
Also we should not worship the present nor the future nor the past but God, the Is.
GM - yes, we do say that there were some good things about the past - and certain areas of life or thought that were better.
But let's not say that it was all good, or that EVERYTHING GOOD was destroyed by the sixties...
And, taken as a whole, the founding principles of our country (Western, with Christian influence...liberty being the best one-word summation) are more manifest now than they have ever been before...
Though that doesn't, in any way, mean that we have perfected the union. That, I believe, will be a neverending process...
See, though, this is where you're wrong. Our current laws are far more restrictive on everyone than they were 50 or 100 or 150 years ago. Perhaps blacks are "more free" but everyone is "less free."
This began in the 1860s, reached a peak in the 1910s--1930s and became insanity after the 1960s, as the Federal government intruded into more and more aspects of our lives.
While at the same time, because we were cutting the bonds of morality and giving up the care of ourselves to the State we have lost all mooring that might make us great.
We are on a very poor course, headed for bladed reefs. We need discipline, vigor, and action -- we need to learn how to sail our state again.
"we have lost all mooring that might make us great."
No, we haven't. What will keep us from being great is if we take a neo-con stance in foreign relations, and if we let ourselves be tied down by corporations with vested interest in out-of-date technologies. Our power is from or inventiveness, and all forces that delay our technological progress (whatever their politics may be) are forces of evil:-)
"Perhaps blacks are "more free" but everyone is "less free."
"everyone?" Who do you mean by "everyone." Not women, of course, who were closed off from the vast majority of careers until very recently (and from Voting, up until those dastardly freedom-restricting 20s)
Not homosexuals, who had to fight to be able to work as teachers in the late 70s, and who are still making strides toward equal rights...
Not 'Chinamen' "Dude, Asian-American is the preferred nomenclature. Please."
Not Marxists (yay McCarthy witchhunts!)
Not Native Americans
Not children (unless child labor is your bag)
Not even whites, except Maybe the rich whites, as they have less freedom to oppress the less-populous poor...
So give me some specific instances of what you're talking about -
I know you're against 'high taxes,' but taxes were highest Before the 60s.
There are, of course, a few things that are too restrictive in our country - it is downright unAmerican that it's illegal to take a to-go drink from the bar and walk down the street to the next pub, sippin' Smithwicks on the way there. THAT's a sinister denial of freedoms. God Bless New Orleans and Savannah, the last bastions of hope and freedom in America!
Sigh. Taxes were quite low prior to the 1910s. Open carry is illegal in most states -- in fact, all weapons laws violate the Constitution. People are not allowed to control their bodies.
We're forced into wage slavery because of artificially high health care costs and property values (well, forced if we want to be healthy and have a place to live -- I suppose the ill homeless are "free").
See, our definitions of "free" differ.
You believe freedom is related to being able to pick your job or eat at a Thai restaurant.
I believe freedom is being free from obligations to which I do not consent.
As the federal government has gotten larger, more powerful, and less controlled in the last 150 years, our freedom -- as in our freedom-from-forced-obligations -- has dwindled.
Keep your Thai restaurants. Liking Basil/Onion beef as I do, I'd rather be freed of Big Brother.
I finally hit a wall in this argument - the spinning in circles has got me confused.
You think that having to work to earn a living is new and a sign of lesser freedom?
I simply don't follow.
No Brett.
I think that the government intrusion into our lives so that 40% of everything we do goes to feed the beast of the State NOT TO MENTION the fact that the state forces us to do all sorts of things, both sane and insane, is a very real loss of freedom. And that loss of freedom is not offset by the congregational and employment opportunities afforded everyone in the last 40 years or so especially because many of these "employment opportunities" only exist due to the higher cost burdens laid onto folks seriously, why do both parents generally have to work? Don't make sense, unless you realize that costs have gone up while wages have stagnated or declined. Such "progress" is hardly good.
"state forces us to do all sorts of things, both sane and insane"
Be more specific, please. I've already provided the example of the fact that it's illegal to drink a beer as you walk down the street. Which is silly...
And so now you're talking about high taxes, which is hardly related to our previous conversation about the effects of the 60s and multiculturalism... (again, taxes were higher in the 50s than in the 60s, so high taxes can't be called an effect of the 60s:-) )
So, acknowledging that the subject has shifted, I think that freedom with regards to labor is not perfect, but once again is better than the way things were throughout most of our history. Maybe there were a few decades when the working life, labor freedom, and taxes were generally better - what time period do you personally think should be representative of how we should deal with labor/taxes/standards of living/etc. in this country?
So I'll agree with you that we are partially blind now - but not that we were more clear-sighted before.
1) Working 5 months of the year to give money to the State
2) Labor laws
3) Compulsory Education
4) Drug laws
5) Marriage and other social laws
6) Stealing our rights and responsibilities in
a) self defense
b) home creation
c) business
d) healthcare
That's a good start. . .
Interesting list, GM.
I agree with some points, disagree with others, and may address them in the near future.
But it's been a Brett vs. the world scenario for too long - anyone out there disagree with anything on GM's list?
Brett,
I really can't argue with GM anymore; it's just not worth it. I may find Jacques to be a right-wing nut, but he's a damn smart one. In fact, I am always surprised that Jacques doesn't attack GM more often for his poorly reasoned assertions based on his warped view of the world. The separation between fact and opinion is still a work in progress there. Besides, I'm too busy with attending tea parties! I can't believe Obama would mortage the future of our children by running up the deficit! Reagan nor Bush would ever do that.. except for the times that they did- but hey you just don't criticize those guys!
--Tom
Yea, the tea parties are interesting - I especially like how they prove that wackos on Both sides like to call the leader Hitler/fascist if he so happens to be on the 'other side.'
I like Kirby, but one of the main problems he had in the past was pointing out faults in liberals that are actually just faults in humans/politics in general, and span both parties. It was just easier to see the hypervitriolic filth spewing from the leftist wackos in the past eight years because they were out of power.
Now that it's a liberal up there, the wackos are still coming out in force, just for the other side.
Except this time, they have a major news network sponsoring them.
And here I thought we were supposed to support our president in times of crisis...
hmmph
Oh, Bitchin! Tom's brilliant pixel farts!
Woo!
Um, Tom, I've not liked Bush since -- well approximately when he said he was running for office back in 2000. Most of my conservative friends thought I was a traitor for calling Bush a borrow-and-spend liberal statist. Looks like I was a-right. And looks like Bamer is going to follow in Bush's footsteps, along with giving the CIA carte blanche to break the law.
Woo!
And Brett,
I'll support any president when he supports the Constitution.
M
GM
Bush and Obama find these new human right laws too constrictive. They want to go back to the good old days when the state tortured without the meddling Geneva Conventions and human rights. You can relate to that right? Hell, in 1860 I bet you could still scalp a Native American without catching too much trouble.
--Tom
Sigh.
Generally you'd be treated like a war criminal but hey, you keep on dreaming, man.
Why don't you go to Detroit, the City that Unions built, and let me know how things is gwain be.
I'm sure Detroit was a much nicer place to live in 1860. . .
I'm actually a fan of labor laws that state I only have to work 40 horus a week and get an hour lunch break and cannot be mistreated by my employer, in short- rights. God forbid citizens have the right to collectively bargain without the corresponding violence that used to accompany this act. So 1860 wouldn't be that appealing to me.
--Tom
Labor laws != rights.
But whatever. I'm sure you're one of those folks who believes that 100% taxation would be fine if the government provided 100% of the stuff we "needed."
Me, I'd rather have the taxes be as close to 0% as possible and have the government give me as little as possible.
For instance -- we're taxed at about 40% right now. 30% or so from the Federal Government. I'd be willing to pay 1/5 of that (6%) for the defense budget and a rudimentary court system -- as I think the US's only legit job is to make sure that no one attacks us and to provide an avenue for regulating the application of fair state laws (14th amendment and all).
The rest of the 24% I'd much rather keep.
Yes, I know this means things like no government built roads. That's just fine with me. The roads are already there and paid for. I will be happy to help maintain them out of my own pocket.
In fact, the first thing I would do would be to put a pair of speedbumps at the curve in front of my house. All of my neighbors would like to see this happen (as people cutting through tend to take the curve at about 30 mph -- that is, too fast) but the city government has exactly zero interest in doing such a thing.
Were I to do it now, I'm sure I'd be fined, if not arrested for some silly thing like damaging government property or some crap.
However, if the roads were maintained by private citizens, my road would be safer this afternoon. All it would take would be a little trip to Lowe's.
Yes GM, I have the right to a safe work environment and I have the federal government to thank for that. Maybe we should put all the anti-tax Republicans on an island that does not benefit from national defense nor infrastructure and they can fend for themselves until the Chinese or Russians invade and turn them into the next Haiti.
-Tom
Yeah, where Jacques places his attacks is interesting - it's largely identity-based. He goes after bad grammar and poor logic only when it's coming from someone who's on the 'other side' of a specific issue...
Though it's weird - I still think he disagrees with GM on a lot o' stuff, but just kinda glosses over those differences while latching onto the differences he has with me and you, especially.
I also think Kirby's given up on trying to reason with GM, and that Kirby disagrees with him on a lot of things, but he's too polite to come out and say it (most of the time), or maybe just doesn't want to get into an argument with him...
Also, I find in GM and sometimes Jacques a disturbing trend toward basing their views on identity rather than principle - Catholic Jacques minimizing and/or excusing the Catholic inquisitions, Southerner GM doing something similar with slavery, etc. ...
I think it's hard to argue with G.M., because he takes such extreme positions, so out of the norm, that I find it hard to want to engage them. I feel like you, Brett, take a position that is more of a common frustration for me.
So on the one side I'm glad G.M. is part of the conversation, but I don't understand at all for instance his fierce hatred of Lincoln, or his peculiar dislike of Wal-Mart, or now his seeming dislike of centralized government.
He's like a Pentecostal Libertarian or something.
It's hard to understand his positions. Yours are more familiar to me.
Even Tom's are more familiar to me.
In the same way, Jacques' positions are quite peculiar. That he is, for instance, a royalist, is quite peculiar.
That's a position that you run into what -- once in a lifetime?
It's an interesting position, nevertheless.
But I don't feel like it needs to be dealt with, since I am quite sure that I don't really have to be afraid that America is going to have a royal family installed any time soon.
So some of the time I just feel perplexed.
But I realize you've been fending off all comers for quite a little while now. Tom and JH and you used to form a kind of troika that could more than handle all kinds of conflict.
I wonder if G.M. and Jacques feel kinship or just some sort of vexed ookiness. The left has certain ideas that they have rallied around. Perhaps the right is all the other ideas, but is there a center to the right?
Perhaps the thing that makes me the most unhappy is the disappearance of art as a field separate from politics. That's not a position a political candidate could use to get deep traction in this country, am I right?
I don't really think a lot about lower taxes, to be honest. I'm really just pissed that art has become not so much about aesthetics, as about politics, and this has been driven by a Marxicizing left, which drives me, particularly, berserk.
I didn't know (or had forgotten) Jacques is a royalist. My facebook political space says "royalist in search of a sensible succession policy."
Kewl.
Also, I really wish Tom would learn to read. I don't mind paying for defense (though I don't really like it but pacifist nations are a lovely pipe dream) or a (smaller) judicial system, as I think that those are the only 2 sensible and legitimate functions of government.
Also,
Haitians turned themselves into Haiti. Or was there a Chinese invasion that I missed?
Also, please, please put us on an island big enough to house us. Haiti would do -- or Cuba, but you'd have to do something with the natives.
Perhaps as it is the policy of the Democratic party to import voters, you could simply add them to the welfare and voting rolls. ACORN would be glad to help with this, I'm sure.
And Brett, you're the one obsessed with identity, since you bring it up so often in an attempt to argue against us instead of arguing against our points.
Having said that, I don't exactly know what JA and I agree on. We don't really communicate even on the blog.
Send me an email at the name of my blog at gmail, JA, and we can chat ifn' you wanter.
M
Oops yes you did mention defense. Maybe GM is very wealthy which is why he is concerned with taxes? He seems to have regressive views toward most social issues. I didn't know Jacques was a royalist! Perhaps it is his desire to live in the 17th century? He seems enamoured with the past at the cost of the present. I find Kirby the receptive conservative, even if his views fluctuate considerably from month to month. I consider myself a pragmatist. For instance, sometimes tax cuts can be effective to stimulate the economy; in this instance they would have no effect as credit insolvency would not be ameliorated.
Kirby, yeah too many politics in the aesthetic world. I have been going back and reading some older critics like Kazin, George Steiner and their scion James Wood. Maybe not always penetrating stuff, but enjoyable and I do get something out of it. At least there is no postmodern theory involved; that stuff is valubale but is getting so tedious at this point. Have you checked out The Kindly Ones yet by Jonathan Littel? It's all about an SS officer in the eastern front, einsatzgruppen. I think you would really enjoy it!
--Tom
No, Tom, I'm fairly middle class (though my family was slightly above gross median income this year for the first time ever). But keeping that extra income sure would help things out. When you're pinching pennies, every bit counts.
I think, G.M., that it's simply me trying to figure out the reasons for your belief-system beyond what you are consciously aware of...
I suppose you could place it next to the left's sometimes-obsession with psychoanalysis.
Anyway, for me having those identity-based explanations is a good thing - because otherwise that means that those beliefs of yours Are actually the results of your principles (as opposed to identity-based allegiances, with argument and reason coming in after to justify), and if that is truly the case than I am filled with a deep strange despair.
I'd prefer you just have a glitch in the system than a system that inevitably justifies evil and creates false moral equivalencies...
"then"
(before filled with despair)
Tom: I think some labor laws may be reasonable for protecting rights and setting conditions for workers. However, if I hadn't had my 72-hour-a-week factory job for for straight summers (and a part-time university job as well) when I was an undergraduate my years ago, I couldn't have afforded university studies. And yes, I do find much to admire in the Europe of the post-Wesphalian period to the French Revolution (excepting the fall of the Stuarts, of course). Perhaps it's in part an affinity for "living" in the past (which is, after all, all our separate destinies), or a romantic love of lost causes. St. Jude protect us!
Brett: Me n' Emmy joined the other patriots for tea at the state Capitol in Lansing. Pretty good, very well-behaved--yet spirited--crowd of 4000 or so attended. Major media hostility was palpable in hardly deigning to report (unless to guffaw over some sophomoric sneer or smutty joke which they pleased themselves to fancy as "wit") the three-quarters of a million who joined these protests nationwide with anything like the grave and assiduous attention they paid to the forty or so bussed-in protesters at some AIG official's house a few months ago.
On monarchism: In the States I can ride with the patriots, for monarchical rule's simply not in our tradition. In other countries, including some European ones, however, I'd like to see monarchies restored (e.g., in France, Italy, Austria, Portugal, Russia, and elsewhere), so I suppose that makes me a monarchist, though not actually a royalist, for there's no native royalty here in the States. Only when I lived in Canada could I properly count myself a royalist. On occasion I do check up on the historian Count Nikolai Tolstoi-Miloslavsky's International Monarchist League activities. I'm pleased to find GM not an enemy to the tradition. For it's nearly as grand as opera! I've only had a couple of colleagues who also were monarchists--one of whom was a French physicist. I corresponded for a time with Richard LeBrun, the leading authority on the sublime and reactionary monarchist Catholic philosopher, Joseph de Maistre, a few of whose brother Xavier's short fictional pieces I'd translated. And I'd always wanted to meet the counter-revolutionary philosopher and political historian (last at Yale in the States before returning to his native Hungary) Thomas Molnar, but didn't have the opportunity.
GM: Quite a few times I been tempted to drop a separate line or two, and now I'll do that in a week or so when my last tyrannical editing deadline has past. My bent on government intrusions in citizens' lives often follows your own, so I don't always respond to what I approve. You seem to have something of the crusty Poundian spirit I like, and your respect for the past I share. So I'll be in touch.
Kirby: I think we's all like to have JH back, for his abundance and inventiveness, his copia and ingenium. And I like reading George Grady's crisp, clear prose (my mathematician friend is yet on working holiday in Italy). Truth is, I do value all the regular contributors on this blog, ideological foes included, for the different perspectives they bring--even if that provides for an opportunity for an exchange of agonistic rhetoric. And even the occasional intrusion of some stray nutter, as long as it isn't max. I like your idea of separating aesthetics from politics a bit more, but it's difficult to clear the air of the sulfurous stench of Marxism and post-structuralism in treating aesthetics.
"for four summers" (the editing tic)
Two more tics: "I've been tempted . . ." and "we'd all like . . ." (editing and posting don't mix well--it's got to be one or the other at a time)
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