Thursday, July 23, 2009

The Map is Not The Territory











One thing is also another. If Marxism is a road map, it is one in which the signs are meant to be serious. One class is one, and the other is the other, and never shall the twain meet. However, people are both genders and more, and we absorb other races, and the signs are not so separate, even unto class.

LS is another system of signs. We think that signes are also singes (monkeys) playing about. In that, we are something like the Buddhists (playful), BUT the Buddhists have the big fatso as their ultimate sign, while we have the scrawny Christ. The Buddha looks like he's eaten everything for miles around especially in those mountain top Buddha shrines such as the one in the harbor of Hong Kong that takes up so much space.

I had this whole idea mapped out last night while sleeping, but it evaporated upon waking. I wanted to contrast fat with thin: Falstaff against Gaunt, Eastwood against Michael Moore, Kate Moss against Andrea Dworkin, Augustine against Marx. But it evaporated upon waking. I have the signs still in my mind, but not their significance.

But LS exists to some extent to "wave red flags" I remember this phrase because I wanted to signal the influx of Buddhists as to what I'm up to here. I wave red flags a bit. This pulls out the bull in others, who attack the red flags. Somehow I was going to work the term "bullshit" in, but I also wanted to stipulate that signs are both REAL and SYMBOLIC. Michael Moore is a symbol of a certain kind of fatuous thought, but he is also a real person. He's fat, but his thought is very thin.

I must have been thinking this while driving to New York City yesterday while holding a map on the steering wheel, watching the exit signs go past. All the way down, all the way back, without missing a single exit. Perfect execution. At bottom the map is a system of signs, but the road also does exist. It is more than a system of signs.

Coney Island is a system of signs, but at bottom it does also exist. The carnies are symbols of carnies, but they are more than that, too. They have a home life in which they are presumably not carnies.

Be careful what you sign up for. If Kate Moss is a sign of one kind of woman, and Andrea Dworkin a sign of another entirely, they nevertheless meet under the sign of women. And yet they are both real, too.

Some maps are better than others. The map I was using yesterday was excellent. It had all the exits in blue, and they were the correct numbers. At bottom LS is a kind of detective excursion into mapping on a global level, in which I posit that Lutheranism is a better system of signs than that of other systems. This is partially due to its authorship. Luther was a better author than others. He makes you cry he's so careful about giving direction. And yet even he got lost a few times. The remarks on the Jews are a sign that he too could get lost. Allowing the bigamy of Philip of Hesse was a wink and a nudge in exchange for protection from the Catholic armies that wanted to roll up Luther's new map, in the local dialect, which kept them from treating the citizenry of Europe the way con artists treat their marks.

Aquinas spent too much time on the afterlife. Hundreds of pages positing non-empirical reasoned out statements with regard to whether fingernails will grow in the afterlife. Luther simply said, "We'll see." He returns it to the empirical.

Luther took two books out of the Bible. One is James, and the notion of Good Works. The other is Revelations. He red flagged these as bullshit, and unreliable.

Lutheran Surrealism is a detective game, but we are only the Inspector Clouseaus of signage.

Luther allowed the arts and the sciences to have complete freedom of inquiry. This is not so in Marxist and Islamic countries. In Marxist countries the arts and sciences are under the political wing, and have to get the go-ahead from the Party for every discovery. Something similar was true in Catholic countries. Whenever you find censorship, or some parties denied the ability to read or publish (many Islamics disallow women to read, and or publish) you stunt the mental growth of your country. Catholic countries still lag in literacy. Marxist countries are totally stunted in literacy. See North Korea. Lutheran countries supreme.

It's not the Lutherans that are supreme, it's the freedom of inquiry for the whole nation that is supreme.

The World Trade Center was a SIGN which Bin Laden censored.

His is a system AGAINST the freedom of capital, and individualism. He reads against it, much like the Marxists.

Michael Berube is also against reading for everyone. His symbol of himself as a bloody hockey player aligns him with OBL. They are similar in wanting to control signage and not allow others to speak (Jacques and I banned at his board).

Coney Island is a sign with a name, and a history. It isn't appreciably better than other Amusement Parks, but its history lends it an ontological reality, but here I approach the edge of the known world and all beyond is oceanic and off the map.

In her speech before the Forum on Women in Huairou China in 1995, San Suu Kyi had Buddhist arguments that she wedged against the militaristic Chinese regime which limited her speech to 1,500 listeners. She says that, "genuine tolerance requires an active effort to try to understand the point of view of others; it implies broad-mindedness and vision, as well as confidence in one's own ability to meet new challenges without resorting to intransigence or violence" (38). She also says that Lord Buddha "did not want human beings to live in silence... 'like dumb animals'" (40), and thus instituted something like a parliament at the end of the rainy season retreat. (Quoted in HUMAN RIGHTS: Great Speeches in History, edited by Laura Hitt, published in San Diego by Greenhaven Press, in 2002).

Myanmar, which has the worst human rights record in the world, refused to allow San Suu Kyi to be president of the country although she won 82% of the vote in 1990.

Communist governments have a total control of signage. When the industrial revolution went off the rails in the early 1800s the poets and the churches spoke out against it in Britain. Communists simply imprison poets and ban the churches so you get Chernobyl and the death of the Aral Sea, without anyone to speak up. The Chinese and their colonial states such as North Korea and Myanmar are well in line with the absurd Marxist tradition in this respect.

We encourage at LS instead a certain kind of humorous rankling of conflicting signage, combined with what San Suu Kyi calls "genuine tolerance" and "broad-mindedness" in the spirit of the parliament that Buddha called at the end of the rainy season.

Everyone should have the right to read, and the right to speak while realizing that we are always able to get things wrong: getting off at the wrong exit, or getting off in a terrible jumble of signs, and the mind's circus, and the outer circus, leave us unable to negotiate or find true north. In the spirit of the blind helping the blind to disorient themselves, our humble blog exists to wave red flags, and confuse one another in a spirit of comraderie between lefts and rights, souths and norths, Buddhists and surrealists, while recognizing that all these signs are also really not so separate, but are very likely to become one another, in the changing map that's also a kaleidoscope of blue and red, of bullshit and good sense.

115 comments:

stu said...

Kirby—

I think you're too hard on the Catholics. Yes, the Catholic magisterium has had an overly broad sense of its expertise, but they have shown a laudable ability to adjust and correct themselves. It just takes a few centuries, so that their people (who claimed too much) won't be personally shamed, and the people they persecuted won't get the opportunity to say "I told you so."

The Catholic church has made its peace with Galileo. They've revoked the Papal bull excommunicating Martin Luther. They've even adopted Luther's position on justification (indeed, they now say that it's what they held to all along, which would have saved a lot of trouble had they been willing to say so five centuries ago). Indeed, except for a small rear-guard that still longs for the 1400's, they generally accept evolution and an old earth.

And they've learned. So far as I know, the magisterium has taken no position on climate change and other "hot-button" science outside of biology.

I think that you're still looking at Catholicism through the lens of the controversies of Luther's day. There has been change on both sides since then.

G. M. Palmer said...

Luther should have been more tolerant of James. And the Revelation is just good apocalyptic fun.

About red flags -- the girls and I were reading the classic Little Golden Book Tootle the other day.

Tootle is a train who realizes that playing off the tracks is a lot more fun that working hard and learning to ride the rails.

Of course, he can't be a big express train if all he does is play in the meadow.

So the townsfolk help him out by waving red flags from all the bushes in the meadow -- and Tootle knows a train has to stop for a waving red flag -- so he hops back on the tracks (where there is a green flag waving).

A delightful story about the value and importance of work -- and working in ones place.

Which brings us back to James. Good works are important because they are an outward demonstration of ones inward commitment to the life of Jesus.

If we just get our sola fide on and don't change at all 1) what was the point and 2) how will anyone know we were changed? That is, why would anyone want to become "saved" if all it means is you no longer have Sunday mornings free?

James shows us the importance of right behavior as a result of right belief.

Kirby Olson said...

The problem with James is that it allows you to fake belief by only showing good works.

Luther does reverse this to some extent that if we get our hearts right good works will follow, but he tries to put the horse before the cart. The horse is faith.

The horseshit is Revelations. Luther argued that we couldn't know the future, and that books of prophesy along those lines are horseshit (he has kinder terminology).

The future is not pre-written in Lutheran theology. There is free will.

I'm hard on the Catholics, as Stu says, and do tend to see it from the lens of Luther's time (JH sees only the proliferating schisms that emanate from Luther's split).

But when you give too much power to one man (Pope) in any setting whatsoever, you get absolute corruption.

Even the faith therefore has to be Democratic if it's not to end up with too much power. Yes, the Catholics are straightened up, but that's only because they have to deal with competition, and a free press. If Luther had never spoken up, we might still be living in the 14th century, still believing that everything rotates around the earth.

So I'm making the larger point of getting rid of monopolies. Monopolies are always already evil because of their very structure.

G. M. Palmer said...

Wrong wrong wrong.

Satan is democratic.

God is hierarchical.

You yourself know this, otherwise you'd believe that your students were best equipped to teach you -- but you know that's bullshit.

Throwing out James with sola fide is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Liberal Fascist said...

"Bullshit"

Intellectual honesty. I'm impressed. But, you know, once you're out, there's no way back in.

More seriously, you sound dangerously close to a pomo-relativist-queer-semanticist blowhard. Do you have your standardized conservative bestiary on hand? It's on page 12.

G. M. Palmer said...

Hey there LibFas,

talk about honesty -- we don't even know who you are!

tom's sockpuppet?

stu said...

The horseshit is Revelations. Luther argued that we couldn't know the future, and that books of prophesy along those lines are horseshit (he has kinder terminology).

Actually, Revelation is not about the future. It is about a present that is now past, i.e., it was written for Christians under Roman persecution.

In terms of the modern idiom, Revelation is theatrical, and if you read it from this perspective, I think you'll find it explains much. It is also written in an intentionally obscuring way, for Revelation was seditious in its time. The symbols it used would have been immediately understood by its intended audience, but modern readers need a bit more background.

After all, just about the only people around today who remember the legend that Nero survived and would be restored as emperor is the band Coldplay, yet this is the key to understanding Rev 12:3, and therefore to understanding that "the beast" was Rome itself. Honest, if you can hear "Viva la vida," and not know immediately that it's about Nero, then there's no chance that you can either read Revelation with understanding, or be able to evaluate arguments based on it.

The message of Revelation was and remains relevant: be strong in the face of persecution, and understand that the ultimate victory will be God's, not Caesar's.

The problem with Revelation is that its imagery and symbolism have been hijacked by people whose exegetical technique consists of making shit up, and in this I include the dispensationalists, tribulationists and all their ilk.

jh said...

stu
the catholic church has not adopted the position on justification
the church has clarified what has always been taught in terms of confession and god's mercy
the present pope while still a cardinal
worked out the language by which justification can be understood in terms of catholic doctrine
but the fact remains
that we've always held to the teaching in the epistle of james

the joint statement was an effort to articulate the lutheran reformation doctrine in catholic terms
and it is my understanding that there is considerable lutheran resistance to the language therein

god's will in terms of salvation
and the economy of salvation has never been a point of difficulty in catholic thought

luther took one aspect of a much larger and involved theology of the economy of salvation narrowed it down and made it the primary doctrine for lutherans who followed
and never took the time to understand the context in which justification always worked itself out in catholic practice

kirby
thomas spent the bulk of his efforts in realism aristotelian realism...that he articulated christian metaphysics within all that is to his credit
we still harvest the riches

luther squashed the religious imagination squash squash squash
that's why there are no lutheran artists or poets...they're all consumed in organizing this world based on a watered down idealism

the catholics want to have a rich imagination and lots of art

bach was basically a catholic his mass in b minor is clear testimony to that
it's only that the state run churches after luther paid better and he had more mouths to feed
and the monks were taking care of most all the church music anyway
most of the fugues build off gregorian chant themes

it will be impossible for anyone to understand the essence of christian orthodox liturgy without understanding how revelation was and is utilized in the eucharistic prayers

the protestants will just have to limp along on that one
sola fides
sola scriptura
sola fascism
sola yawn
it all works like that
and a few arbitrary intellectual efforts as well...kant we'll give you kant but kant can't he jsut can't afterawhile he tires
and ther is no metaphysical outlet
just this world adn room for manipulation by lutherans and atheists

come on folks
get on the real boat
sails are a hoisten

no salvation outside of rome
you're just fooling yourselves
the life boats you threw overboard in the 16th century are leaking bad

and the ship is still sailing along fine

and for what it is worth
we are still essentially a 14th century church in terms of eucharistic structure and governance in general
all except we no longer sleep with the noble booble families no longer are preoccupied with real estate and no longer work behind closed doors
o i guess O we still do that
but that's because there are so many people who just refuse to understand

veritas catholicos
all roads lead to rome
you can take that to the bank

don't lighten up on the catholics
the more severe the criticism the better the shine

catholic good works--
-huge libraries of intelligent philosophy and theology
-poets novelists
-store houses of great art
-libraries
-orphanages
-schools schools schools
-hospitals
-catholic worker houses
-missions to the needy
-social justice radicals
-the jesuits for godz sake
-flower gardens everywhere
-belgian beer recipes
-some of the great vineyards of france cultivated by cistercians in the 12th century

good works galore

the good works that have come from protestant hands---all the reactionary skepticism and deadended theorization of the 20th century--and OK
the assination of ceauscescu
one really good work in 500 yrs
i would include bach
but i'm saying now he was a catholic forced into liturgical slave labour by the state run churches of the north
he was a victim of abuse

j

Liberal Fascist said...

I have to come clean too?

Okay then :

My own blog about Hinduist Internationalism (sig), on which I mainly passed on reflections from my late aunt Edna waiting for that "darn negro milkman" in the 60s, is bullshit too. I was a stealth apolitical wannabe writer all along!

stu said...

the joint statement was an effort to articulate the lutheran reformation doctrine in catholic terms
and it is my understanding that there is considerable lutheran resistance to the language therein


Actually, the claim that I remember most from the joint declaration (I assume here that you're talking about "Justification by Faith: Lutherans and Catholics in Dialog VII") was that they discovered that differences in terminology had tended to obscure underlying agreement, when different words were used to express the same belief. But even more insidiously, they concluded that the different meanings ascribed to certain words in the debate in the sixteenth century meant that sometimes both sides had used the same language, but in fact disagreed, with these disagreements only becoming apparent now.

The oral tradition about this volume on the Lutheran side is a bit more evenhanded, IMHO. Both sides encountered difficulties, both sides worked hard and in good faith. They discovered that they were significantly closer than either side expected going in, and therefore everyone was disappointed with how little progress was made in closing the unexpectedly narrow gap that remained.

we've always held to the teaching in the epistle of james

I think it is telling that Luther chose to include the Epistle of James in the German Bible, at the same time that he decided not to print the deuterocanonicals. Luther was kind of like Kirby—he'd definitely waive the red flag, either hyperbolically to make a point, or simply for the visceral pleasure of infuriating his opponents. Of course, his opponents did likewise, it was just the way the game was played at the time.

But to continue with Luther and James, I believe that Luther understood James in a sense that would conform to that of modern Catholicism. His problem was essentially tactical—his opponents were fixated on beating him over the head with James, whereas he felt that a balanced reading of the entire New Testament supported his position. Casting doubt on James was a way of casting doubt on his opponents, who were vulnerable to this line of attack precisely because their scriptural support was overly narrow.

Anonymous said...

The Liberal Fascist is actually a Maoist boogeyman from Kirby's days at UW. Kirby doesn't realize that he has good reason to fear the Maoists as they never forgave him for that article in "Anarchy" and have had a price on his head ever since.

--LK

Kirby Olson said...

The Liberal Fascist must be Tom, because nobody else ever read my article in Anarchy against the Maoists.

Stu, Revelations is widely and variously interpreted. The historical reading is that it is a covert critique of Nero and others in the days leading up to the dispersal of the Jews around AD 70 from the Holy Land.


But it is also read as a prophecy, and that's how Luther read it, and why he didn't accept it. He was in favor of free will, and was non-deterministic.

GM has a kind of good half-point about democracy. You can't crowd source math, and not just anybody can be a decent pastor (Mormons attempt this, just the same, apparently!), but we DO have the right to set up our own religions (first amendment) and this makes our country stronger to have various strands competing with one another.

I'm always already against any monopolies.

The Buddhists have such a following among the young because they promise satisfaction. It's written right there on the Buddha's face. Of course he looks like he ate half of India to get that beatific look.

But he's no fatter than Luther. Luther probably never went a single day without a sandwich. No Pope ever did.

Franciscans don't look too skinny in spite of going around in supposed poverty.

The historical appeal of much of institutionalized faith is that you could get fed. That's a pretty good inducement.

But look at the larger societies you live in. This one (America) is pretty bad. I'll admit it. The underclasses are slovenly, virtually illiterate, and smoke cigarettes, and are heavily tattooed. It pains me to see them.

Then you have the prehensile upper classes so convinced of their worth as they beam around in Beamers, flashing their smiles since they alone can afford dental care, and gyms to keep their posture perfect, looking down on the lower classes.

In Finland you don't find upper and lower. People are all pretty much ok. You find millworkers who have reading clubs. And the CEOs do their own laundry, and clean their own toilets.

I say that it's Luther who set that tone. He and Katie still changed diapers, didn't outsource it to Mexicans like the Clintons.

Some sense that we're all one before God.

As for the notion that I am a POMO guy, I was just playing their ideas back into Marxism to listen to the angry feedback from the speakers. Jimi Hendrix taught me that trick, but he learned it from Bach, who learned it from Luther.

stu said...

Stu, Revelations is widely and variously interpreted.

Of course, but not all interpretations are equal. In particular, dispensationalist readings require that Revelation points to our time, which is obvious nonsense. If the people to whom it was first addressed didn't find it to be relevant to them, it would have been used to wrap fish, rather than preserved as it was.

The historical reading is that it is a covert critique of Nero and others in the days leading up to the dispersal of the Jews around AD 70 from the Holy Land.

The accepted date of authorship of Revelation is 90-95 CE, which points to Domitian. Note that one of the heads had a healed death wound, which presumably points to the Nero Redivivus legend, and therefore must post-date Nero's reign. Likely, Nero was equated with one of the later emperors, e.g., Domitian himself.

I know that it's hard to reconcile the seven heads with the lists of emperors, but if we limit ourselves to emperors who were proclaimed to be divine (and therefore blasphemous), then the count can be reconciled.

In Finland you don't find upper and lower. People are all pretty much ok. You find millworkers who have reading clubs. And the CEOs do their own laundry, and clean their own toilets.

This I agree with, and it worth pushing on. One of the big issues in our society is the huge disparity in income and wealth. The key social problem is in getting incentives right, so that hard work is rewarded and laziness punished, but that, everything else being equal, disparities tend to even out in a generation or two. Progressive income and estate taxes are of use, but either we're not pushing them hard enough, or they're inadequate. I tend to think the former, but fixing this is politically very hard to do—after all, the rich make big campaign donations to both parties.

I believe the Finnish approach is to tax the heck out of everyone, which has the effect of making wealth very hard to accumulate, and keeps everyone working.

Jacques Albert said...

Whether Tom-tom AKA Reptile (same species as Al Franken) is Liberal Fascist or no, he's got the same faulty frosh logic, as one can easily see in his or her guilt by insinuation and association calumny about sweet, smart, Sarah Palin. At any rate, Luther hadn't the linguistic expertise to translate the Jewish Bible (not the scholar the mighty St Jerome was, let alonbe Erasmus, so he had to rely upon Melancthon foir Hebrew. My man Pierre-Daniel Huet, the former Protestant become Catholic bishop read the Hebrew Bible 24 times in his lifetime and was an assiduous student of Aramaic, Syriac, Arabic, etc. A E Housman, the marvelous textual scholar and sound minor pooret called Huet "a critic of uncommon exactness, sobriety, and malevolence." He killed a man with his tongue, mais c'est une autre histoire . . .

Jacques Albert said...

Soory, that's "poet"

stu said...

At any rate, Luther hadn't the linguistic expertise to translate the Jewish Bible (not the scholar the mighty St Jerome was, let alonbe Erasmus, so he had to rely upon Melancthon foir Hebrew.

I believe this to be incorrect. Luther knew Hebrew, but he relied on Melancthon both for the Masoretic Text (much as he relied on Erasmus for the Greek Text) as well as for some of the translation.

But it's clear that Luther did his own translations of the Psalms as early as 1513, from the Hebrew, long before he began translating the Bible in its entirety.

I am sure that Pierre-Daniel Huet was a scholar of distinction, but reading the Bible, even in its original languages, is quite different from producing and publishing a full translation, as Luther (together with a handful of colleagues) did. Indeed, Luther is widely credited with having largely created the modern German language through his translation, and so is credited the roles w.r.t. German that Shakespeare and Tyndale are credited w.r.t. English.

On the whole, Luther's position that we should rely primarily on original language texts as a basis for translation has faired especially well, and I'll point to the translations rules of the JB (in which GNT-T and MT are favored over VULG, with the later used only to disambiguate the former too) as evidence that the Catholic Church has conceded the point, albeit without acknowledging the author.

stu said...

Oy. too -> two

G. M. Palmer said...

Dunno,

I'd give Johnson at least as much credit as Shakespeare.

jh said...

luther started a pattern of ecclesial individuality and arrogance
i meet these people all the time
claiming superiority of insight
the RC must be wrong
they're powerful
too many people believe them
that's why the world is so phuqqed up i heard it just the other day
some halfassed homechurcher claiming he former catholic the catholic church he grew up in is wrong
there is no "real presence" jesus wants to be in your heart if you have him there it's all OK you don't need anything else
this guy wasn't going to let up he just kept preahing and preaching
and his wife looked at me with suspicion

the catholix have simply said
OK let's see
you talk a good line but
when it comes down to walkin the walk up calvary it seems pretty obvious you all just want to go home and read your bible and convince yourself you've got the line on the truth that the church never had or if it did have it it lost it after augustine

luther started a fracture that is hard to heal
you'd have to get everyone reading the apostolic fathers and all of augustine and thomas and the jesuit commentators on thomas suarez cajetan john of st thomas and doris day o wait she did something else
anyway
i think it's hopeless
i was thinking there for awhile that maybe there could be some repair
but i think bothe stu and kirby are guys like most all the other protestant hardcore puritans out there
they'r going to be goddam admamant until the church agrees with them and that's never going to happen and they've no recourse to consider that perhaps they're mistaken so it is hopeless
time for another thirty year war
but i think we should use squirt guns and play tag i'm willing to permit smurf swords but that's the limit
when you're it you have to stop and kneel say an act of contrition and state loudly that the pope is right on all matters pertaining to everything from science to art to psychology to worship to poetry
he's the only one worth listening to..
and then the penance begins
hardcore medieval penance

i'm presently trying to get the pope to retract the statement of admission of guilt made by JP II on the galileo affair
that was a big mistake on JPII's part
galileo was wrong
as it turns out everything revolves around me
and since i'm standing (OK sitting on my ass)on the earth the earth is pretty close to the center of the universe
the actual center being my heart
when i die there will be hell to pay everywhere...and of course the fact that my candidacy for sainthood is well underway i probably won't have to die i'll be like mary just assumed into heaven in a slumberous sigh
stay tuned folks
could happen any day any year
miracles?...you want miracles
25 yrs in this hell hole of a monastery
now that's a miracle
the fact that i've stuck it out with kirby this long
quite the miracle

Jacques Albert said...

stu:

The history of biblical translation is far more complex than can be discussed fruitfully here; suffice it to say that Huet was a textual scholar far beyond the abilities of Luther; another great one of the time was the priest Richard Simon, a Protestant-turned Catholic friend and correspondent of Huet's. One of the mightiest textual scholars of all time was the Catholic-turned- Protestant Joseph Scaliger, whose partisan animus towards Jerome nevertheless doesn't alter the fact that 60% of his thousands of conjectural emendations of classical texts still stand. Huet in turn never tired of pointing out Scaliger's bias and numerous editing errors. Huet was not just a READER--he was a crack textual SCHOLAR and EDITOR, as Housman acknowledged.

And I still haven't received anything like an acceptable answer about Luther's "sola" fides addition for purely ideological reasons, the attack on the canonical Epistle of James (or Book of the Apocalypse), or Luther's sanction of Philip of Hesse's bigamous marriage.

I think you might profit from reading my extensive commentaries and notes on biblical translation in my second book, "Translation theory in the age of Louis XIV" (St Jerome Publishing, Manchester, UK, 2002). Perhaps you can get it on interlibrary loan (it's priced still at 65 pounds). Perhaps then we might discuss the matters raised in a private coirrespondence. You might also profit from reviewing the letter exchanges between Jerome and Augustine.

jh said...

kirby you have this undercurrent of social darwinism goin on
i mean you think the fittest will struggle fairest and survive and thrive to make the best of things
i'm all for the bumpercar theory of practical ideas but your notion seems to militate against absolute truth
which by the way is in the basement of the vatican right now if anyone would like to know

it runs against the biblical theme of god favoring the little guys the nearly negligible folks the sarahs the ephraimites the sadduccees or was it the other guys the pharisees he favored..yeah paul that worthless beggar he was favored the outcasts jesus was attracted to lepers and outcasts whores and what not...i mean most of his team were smelly fishermen for godz sake
no
god favors the weak the lonely the misbegotten the fogotten the demented the poor the social castoffs the worthless and the guys who smell real fishy and know something about networking the monks

i think martin luther should be re-excommunicated
we're making it too easy for the lutherans
hell they think like pelagius anyway
they'll work if out
why bother
galileo was wrong luther was wrong
and now it seems like i'm the only one interested in telling the truth around here

no salvation without a rosary
we're willing to consider worry beads but that's it

fiat fiat fiat

anathema
i'm born as one too late
i would've been one kickass medieval pope

inquisition
did i hear inquisition
not a bad idea
who's on first
yada yada yada
do the vatican rag

relatively speaking relativism tends to relativize the relationships of relatives
so the less than perfect truths have to go back for summer school
and bone up a bit on logic

you want some cool maps
i say head over to http://earthlingwonders.blogspot.com
there's some maps
there's some territory
there's a girl who knows her earth science
and a pretty fair theologian too
and a poet

when all is said and done
lutheran surrealism is little more than a
coney island of the mind

i am waiting for alice in wonderland to retransmit to me her dream of total innocenc -lf

teaching monkeys to read

i te i tao teching mon keys to ching read

if marx had been a catholic priest what would he have preached

did you hear the one about d duck who wouldn't swim
trying to play d coy one

did marx have any brothers

i think we're all just moving about on a huge labyrinth
very few of us find the portals
that will get us to the center and back out again

remember the thing about the world trade center it all began with a dream the wife of one of bin laden's boyz (man warrior that is)had...the bhurkha girl dreamed the thing
those folks are vivid when it comes to dreams
the two towers nicknamed
david and nelson

way too many signs in america
get rid of 80% of 'em
who needs 'em

sign sign everywhere a sign
do this don't do that
can't you read the sign

the only sign for catholics is
the sign of the cross
i know it looks like we're swattin at flies
but we're actually makin the sign

i like the peace sign

people can't read the landscape anymore
the signs are just too many

am i making sense

the other day someone gave me a one finger sign
so i blessed him

sign me up for a road trip without signs

i thought for awhile i could help but it seems now
everyone is damned
except my aunt my brother and myself
i did manage to get most of the recent souls out of purgatory
it was hard because they said they liked it a lot

the rest of you are going to have to go on luck

play the horses
check the signs
quit monkeying around
life is a beach and then you dive

red flag
i'm the bull

red skelton has a pledge of allegiance

it's a sign of the times

ach

the computer
a sign from hell
thanks a lot bill gates and steve jobs
go through these gates and you'll get some good jobs
in hell
look at al the signs

brett swanson said...

I still don't think, Kirby, you've given a proper explanation for the paradox that is your love for Northern European countries and your hatred for U.S. politicians who try to implement policies even vaguely reminiscent of them thar socialist democracies.

saying 'but America's not Lutheran, so it won't work' doesn't explain it fully, me don't thinks.

stu said...

The history of biblical translation is far more complex than can be discussed fruitfully here;

I think it is beyond us to give this a full discussion in this venue. But did you find any errors, misrepresentations, or misleading statements in what I had to say? If so, please indicate what they were. If not, what's your point?

And I still haven't received anything like an acceptable answer about Luther's "sola" fides addition for purely ideological reasons, the attack on the canonical Epistle of James (or Book of the Apocalypse), or Luther's sanction of Philip of Hesse's bigamous marriage.

It seems to me that you promised me a few answers on another thread, without actually following through, whereas I've made no promises regarding these. Nevertheless...

Luther's "sola" fides addition for purely ideological reasons

I assume that you're discussing Romans 3:28, "for we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law. (NSRV)" In GNT-TR, this is "λογιζόμεθα οὖν πίστει δικαιοῦσθαι ἄνθρωπον, χωρὶς ἔργων νόμου." The word "χωρὶς" means "without," as in, "without works of law." Recasting this as "So halten wir es nun, daß der Mensch gerecht werde ohne des Gesetzes Werke, allein durch den Glauben. (Luther 1545)," adding the "allein," so as to focus attention on what is asserted, rather than what is denied, seems to me to be within the license one has to give a translator.

Does the addition favor Luther's theology? Yes. Does it do so in a way that does violence to the underlying text? I think not.

And I think if you take a honest look at the NJB's rendering, "since, as we see it, a person is justified by faith and not by doing what the Law tells him to do," you'll have to admit that it waters down the Greek even more than Luther punched it up. Otherwise, you'll have to tell me where the "χωρὶς" and "ἔργων" went, and where the "doing what ... tells to do" came from. I'd be grateful if you'd dig out the Vulgate text, and let me know whether it's a fair translation of the Greek, or if Luther was pushing against a distorted translation there, since I don't know Latin.

the attack on the canonical Epistle of James (or Book of the Apocalypse)

Both books struck Luther as theologically weak. I've discussed Luther on James in earlier notes, and Kirby has discussed Luther on Revelation. So you've had your answer here, whether you chose to acknowledge it or not.

In any event, Luther included both in his translation. There were other books he considered weak too, e.g., he felt that Hebrews lacked the apostolic authorship that the church had historically affirmed. Current scholarship confirms his view.

Any reasonable analysis of the Bible will reveal that it is uneven. Not all books in the Bible are worth equal attention. If Isaiah, Mark, and 1st Corinthians are especially valuable, it necessarily follows that there are books that are of lesser value. Luther did no more than acknowledge this, by explicitly identifying the books he felt weak, but did not take it upon himself to edit them out.

Luther's sanction of Philip of Hesse's bigamous marriage.

Kirby addressed this in terms of practical aspects of protection against Catholic forces, and he may well be right. And there, also, an answer was given but not acknowledged. Moreover, I'll note that I originally raised the issue of Luther's sanction of Philip of Hesse's bigamy as being problematic.

For my part, I think it was a mistake. Luther was a genius, but also human, and not perfect. He made mistakes, and this is far from his worst mistake (his writings late in life against the Jews, e.g., are far more embarrassing).

It is worth remembering that the Lutheran Church is a Church of Jesus Christ, not a church of Martin Luther. Luther had some important insights, which we still value and honor, but he is not worshipped in our churches. The triune God alone is worshipped.

G. M. Palmer said...

Brett --

Socialism always benefits and feeds on the lower class.

Because the ScanDesign countries never really had a lower class (or have a better class of lower class) they can thrive.

Our lower class folks are a bunch of uneducated thugs and hicks who, though they can't spell bullet, can surely shoot them.

Justin said...

big fatso as their ultimate sign, while we have the scrawny Christ. The Buddha looks like he's eaten everything for miles around

Another misunderstanding about Buddhism is that the Buddha is fat. The popular 'fat/laughing Buddha' statues don't actually represent the historical Buddha Shakyamuni (Siddhartha Gautama). They represent Budai Luohan (Hotei in Japanese) - an eccentric Chinese monk who often represents the mythical 'future Buddha' Maitreya.

Liberal Fascist said...

Jacques : Your Palin obsession is being addressed on another thread. For the time being, I think thorazin can provide you a better response than I can.

brett swanson : From my understanding, it’s something like that :

Socialism, as opposed to I suppose the market fundamentalism Olson’s sometimes seen shilling for, is defined comprehensively by the absence of any democratic process or political choices afforded to its population. Thus, any and all attempts at moving to the left of Greenwich can be readily dismissed (hey Jacquey, isn’t that your obsession du jour, guilt by assoc., “rearing its head”?) for being on a slippery slope (cf. Beck, 2009) toward dictatorial totalitarianistic evil-doing stalinocracy.

EXCEPT, that is, in the case of Northern European countries which, for all their socialist policies, are “always already” made to stand firm in sighting distance of common sense by the religious identity of their past, as opposed to present, citizens.

Makes perfect sense.

(Psst, there’s also the fact that the lower classes over there aren’t considered an ethnical Other plagued with all sorts hereditary defects, to whom any social spending is “always already” discrimination against whites, negative reinforcement of bad habits, waste, etc.)

Anonymous said...

Bhudda is 'fat' because he is a SYMBOL of 'enlightenment' ie. satisfaction and contentment ie. not starving. Learn how to understand metaphor and symbol and maybe you're dimwit readings of world religion may have some resonance.

You are indeed an 'Inspector Clouseau of signage' because you're an intellectual klutz who wouldn't hear a tree falling in the forest if it fell on your empty head.

You're 'mapping on a global level' instead belies the common idiocy that the realities of you're own little petty neighbourhood/church/job/general bullshit is the best of all possible worlds.

The literacy rate has been higher in both Cuba (catholic/communist) and (partially) Catholic Europe than it has been in the U.S. for the past century.

You may also find that Cuba has higher life expectancy (and rising) as opposed to the (declining) life expectancy of the U.S. with its insane health system. But hey - if it's only poor people dying, it's OK right? Those sick kids should have found richer parents on eBay!

You may also find 'family values' (they didn't seem to be be do so well in the U>S> lately) and capitalism thrive in Eastern non-Prostestant economies without government bail-outs, grants and market protectionism.

I'm also alarmed that you would involve your children in Eastern (Hindu) practices like yoga - popularised in the west by no less than Aliester Crowley - what would Luther think?

Hopefully, at some point you may lose your job/home/wife so we can see your endless smug 'investigations' of how wonderful neoliberal capitalist Lutheran bigotry is... but I suppose you'll just blame your negro communist president and join a survivalist militia...

Anonymous said...

stu:
Actually, your assumption is partially incorrect, for I was referring FIRST to James 2:24 and THEN to Luther's justification for adding "sola" to "fide" in the text of Romans 3:28 (a number of other controversial translations by Luther are covered from the Catholic point of view in of course the Catholic Encyclopedia, as well as a bibliography--doubtless you already have some samplings of Protestant or Lutheran ones). The passage is James seems directly to contradict Luther's whole assertion of solafideism or monergonism, so that seems why he should so ferociously attack a canonically-accepted book of the NT. I haven't (nor I suspect do you, unless you are posting from a well-stocked theological library) have the massive textual support you need to "prove" anything about Luther's textual, ahem, activities and assertions.

My Westcott and Hort ("New Testament in Original Greek") reads (and we haven't yet set up the Greek script function, so I'll try to transliterate where there is a slight difference--this may also useful for those on this thread who don't read Greek) for "pros romeus"
3:28: "logizometha gar dikeousthe pistei anthropon choris ergon nomou," which in the Bibliorum Sacrorum iuxta Vulgatam Clementinam text (the massive Vatican Biblia Sacra iuxta Latinam Vulgatam Versionem (1926-) is not of course at hand) of "ad Romanos" 3:28 reads: "Arbitramur enim iustificari hominem per fidem sine operibus legis" ("For we reckon that a man is justified by faith independently of the works of the Law" in the authorized Catholic Confraternity English text).

When you say "[t]he word "χωρὶς" means "without," as in, "without works of law," you have made an arbitrary choice that perhaps others have made for you for doctrinal reasons, for a quick scan of my one-volume "Great" Liddell and Scott yields up dozens of English words and word combinations for "choris," including: "separately," "apart,"
"in reserve," "set aside," "besides," "without,"
"independently of," "without the help or will of," "without reckoning," "otherwise," "except,"
"besides," etc., so you see how arbitrary is your assertion of "without," without contexts and authoritative support for this particular choice. And of course the scholarly and theological support will vary according to creed affinities. There is thus no authority for your claim without considerable outside lexical support (just a few of my lexical--excluding the Latin and Hebrew to Greek sources--references in my
2nd book include: The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised (Moulton), A Greek-English Lexicon (Liddell, Scott, and Jones), A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament (Abbott-Smith), Patrologia Graeca (Migne), A Patristic Greek Lexicon, Septuaginta (Rahlfs), Thesaurus Graecae Linguae (H Stephanus), The New Testament in the Original Greek (Westcott and Hort, supra, etc., and much, much more, if you care to cast a curious eye over my book) unless you accept Luther's translations as God-given and all others faulty because not divinely-inspired. So you see that a few Greek snippets with a few cribbed translations are not going to resolve the problem of gauging the massive iceberg underneath the water.
(to be continued)

Jacques Albert said...

(continued)

What you might be interested in investigating is Luther's theory of translation, which is played out in the letters of Jerome and Augustine (especially over the Septuagint Bible, which is yet another massive philological and hiustorical problem) to each other. Augustine holds, though weakly, for he (self-admittedely) hasn't anything like the weighty linguistic expertise Jerome's acquired over decades of hard study and the Hebrew learning he received from a number of Jewish mentors. No wonder Jerome is the patron saint of translators. At any rate, Jerome held for what Werner Schwarz in "Principles and of Biblical Translation (short title) called the "philological" or "humanist" view of translation (held by Jerome and Erasmus as well as countless others, including Protestant textual editors like Joseph Scaliger, as opposed to the "inspirational" view of Luther and his devotees, that is, that biblical translation must be directly and divinely "inspired" by God and that theological considerations must always supercede grammatical ones (and, yes, Luther claimed his translations were superior because he, unlike the others, was directly inspired by God). Nevertheless, Jerome once wrote to Augustine that he could not translate what he did not first understand, and to be frank, that is my view as well. Be that as it may, a place to start is as I said, in the letter exchanges between Augustine and Jerome (of course you will need to rely on translations into English (see Philip Schaff et alii for letters of both Fathers of the Church) or if you have French (Labourt); there is a selection of Jerome's letters by F A Wright in the Loeb series).

Finally, since you have German, you may have perused Luther's "Sendbrief vom Dolmetschen" (1530) and the works of other German translators of the early modern period (1500-1800) as I have, e.g., Martin Opitz ("Buch der Deutschen Poeterey," 1624) or Justus Georg Schottelius's 1663 "Ausfuerlich Arbeit von der Teuschen HaubtSprache, or Georg Venzky's 1734 "Das Bild eines geschickten Uebersetzers," etc. Goethe and contemporaries of his of course have much to say about translation as the Germans scramble to try to play cutural catchup to the self-acknowledged superiority especially of Italy and France.

Some names in modern works in German on translation and its history (all used in my book): Joern Albrecht, Friedmar Apel, Walter Benjamin, Harald Kittel (ed), Wolfgang Kluxen, Heinrich Marti, Frederick M Rener (English also--his "Interpretatio,"[short title] with all its errors, is the best single volume on early modern translation available), Astrid Seele, Jacob Soll, Juergen von Stackelberg, Moritz Steinschneider, in addition to the indispensable reference works like the Pauly, Wissowa, and Kroll "Real-Encyclopaedie d. klassischen Aterumswissenschaft" and the Lausberg "Handbuch der Literarischen Rhetorik."

BTW, stu, I didn't answer your challenges fully about the justification for the Iraq invsion because they resolve themselves into Republican talking points (which find convincing and you obviously don't) and the standard Democratic post-post invasion switch (which you find convincing and I don't)--we've hashed these out before on the pages, but you've offered so much more interesting commentaries on more intellectual topics that there seems to bve more gold there than lead for polemical grapeshot.
Cheers, JA

Jacques Albert said...

Soory (as they say in Newfoundland) for the typos, and if there are any questions relative to them or anything else I've said please ask. It's much more fun and more profitable to all to discuss intellectual topics rather than swat at and crush intellectual gnats like Tom (in his childish protean transformations as "Lizard King," "Anon," "Liberal Fascist," etc. as well as brett the Idiot Boy (who seems to fancy that a career as what amounts to a babysitter and playmate of adolescents is fulfilling enough to replace reading and study).

Jacques Albert said...

jh:

Thanks for your enlightening posts on Church history and doctrine; they're indispensable to any reasoned and accurate discussion on such topics on this thread.
Cheers, ja

Jacques Albert said...

Tom the Bomb:

So when to you leave for the workers' paradise with the other Narrenshiff loonies, Tom? And don't forget to take that cretinous communist propagandist slob with the thirty-pound neck goiter, Michael Moore (funnily caricatured in a patriotic comedy with Jon Voight, "An American Carol"), with you, if you think he wouldn't sink your ship of fools. Literacy in Cuba, you dolt? Ability to read Castroist propanganda, you mean in a sh-thole of censorship. Are you really stupid enough to swallow all that nonsense about Cuban "health care?" Che di cretino!

Liberal Fascist said...

Jacques: You're short a few crayolas, kid.

You eruct a complete page of name-dropping non sequitur in response to my Unforgivable (simulated) act of guilt by association in the last thread, then turn around and pronounce me guilty of somehow being Tom, or LK, or whoever? Then proceed to dismiss the whole mess of our discussion on that ground?

I'm sorry to say, but you don't come off half as clever as you think you are.

brett swanson said...

I hardly read anything Jacques says anymore -

blahblahblah namedrop blahblahblah snarky nickname blahblahblah Limbaugh talking point blahblahblah I'm better than you because I'm old blahblahblah I'm better than you because I'm quoting something in Latin blahblahblah I'm better than you because I went to war blahblahblah labeling you with a liberal stereotype blahblahblah Sarah Palin's smart blahblahblah the inquisition, what a show blahblahblah you don't think, you unthinking thinker you! blahblahblah I still have sex even though I'm all old fat and wrinkly blahblahblah blahblah blah BLAH!!!!!

Now you never have to read anything Jacques writes ever again, because you've the gist of it.

Jacques Albert said...

Tom and brett (don't low comedians always come in pairs?):

Always glad to get under you two bozos' skins--it's obvious from your puerile responses. As George has it to Martha, you need not only to under the skin and into the bone, but into the very marrow as well--come to think of it that's what translators do with words--thanks, guys for inspiring yet another useful metaphor as you ride drifting round on your oarless boat (your "stultifera navis," non e vero?) towards the ever-rushing Falls of Ignorance.

Yep, couple a' drug-store cowboys shootin' blanks in the air . . . Yip, yip, yahoo, boys!

Anonymous said...

"get under" (omission)

Liberal Fascist said...

That's it?

Beware not to trip on your own untied metaphors when you bow out like that.

G. M. Palmer said...

Hopefully, at some point you may lose your job/home/wife so we can see your endless smug 'investigations' of how wonderful neoliberal capitalist Lutheran bigotry is

WTF? Anger much?

Kirby Olson said...

It's always a good thing to see my numbers go up in terms of comments made, but with quantity, quality generally suffers. The flame wars of the last few days offer a lot of heat and little light. One of the hazards of speaking in public in America is you always get these folks in sheets of anonymity spewing hatred. Now one commenter actually wants my whole family to die because I've questioned the Buddha's girth, and Franciscan eating habits.

Oy vey!

This is discourse in the early part of the 21st century in America.

I do find it quite funny.

at any rate, I can't always have high-quality commenters if I'm going to have so many. I remember when the clodhopper Max showed up during the Christmas lull and we went to 200 comments and more. But the substance of the comments was very thin to account for those numbers.

What's a blogger to do?

Do I have to check the IQ of all incoming commenters? I think it would be GREAT if I could do that. What kind of ism would I be committing if I were to do that? And what would I lose in the process?

I like all kinds of comments from various opinions and groupings, but I don't really appreciate it when people want my family to suffer, especially when they aren't even willing to sign their names. It's a little scary.

America has become a very strange place since the 1960s.

stu said...

jh—

My Westcott and Hort ("New Testament in Original Greek") reads ...

Westcott and Hort is a great text, but we're talking about Luther's translation, and his base text for the New Testament was Textus Receptus, which is why I cited it.

When you say "[t]he word "χωρὶς" means "without," as in, "without works of law," you have made an arbitrary choice that perhaps others have made for you for doctrinal reasons, for a quick scan of my one-volume "Great" Liddell and Scott yields up dozens of English words and word combinations for "choris," including: "separately," "apart," ... , so you see how arbitrary is your assertion of "without," without contexts and authoritative support for this particular choice.

Liddell and Scott isn't a specific Koine/Patristic Greek-English lexicon, but instead covers all of ancient Greek, and therefore its definitions can be a bit over-broad (or so I've read, I only claim to be a dilettante, albeit an aggressive dilettante with a good library, access to excellent libraries, and a working knowledge of google).

So I use BDAG, "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition," which is focussed on Koine/Patristic Greek. Its principle glosses are "pertaining to occurring separately or being separate," "pertaining to the absence of lack of something," "without," "apart from," and "independent(ly of)." You have to go to entry 2.a.γ to find a non-exclusionary gloss, "in addition to," which to me indicates that this is a possible, but very unlikely translation, and therefore that the burden of proof lies on those who would translate this way instead of in its much more common use (within Koine Greek specifically) of "without." Do you care to assume that burden?

As regards James 2:24, James has a generally agreed date of authorship of 100 C.E., plus or minus a few years, and therefore is much later than Romans, which dates to 55-56 C.E. I think it is plausible, verging on probable, that James was written specifically in opposition to Romans, and was intended to correct a community that was focussed on faith to the exclusion of mission. I am, it must be said, somewhat sympathetic to James's point of view in this, although Kirby is not, and Luther was not. In short, I believe that James 2:24 contradicts Romans 3:28, and does so with specific intentionally. Do you agree or disagree?

If you are willing to stipulate that they do contradict one another: do we choose Romans over James, or James over Romans? Luther did not waffle, but instead chose Romans over James, which is not unreasonable given the priority, greater authority, and much greater theological vision of Romans. I concur, albeit with some caveats (which none-the-less fit within the Lutheran tradition). What choice would you make?

a number of other controversial translations by Luther are covered from the Catholic point of view in of course the Catholic Encyclopedia, as well as a bibliography--doubtless you already have some samplings of Protestant or Lutheran ones

One of the big differences between translation and criticism is that the translator has to make a call on every question, and doesn't get to pick and choose. Moreover, given the size of the task, the amount of time that can be spent on any one call is not large, hence the utility of translation rules, which make many of these calls automatically. Sensible translators (and Luther was a sensible translator, whether you would have it so or not) consider specific criticisms of their work, and if they find that the criticisms have merit, adjust. Luther did this, albeit without giving credit—such were the norms of his day.

Liberal Fascist said...

"America has become a very strange place since the 1960s."

That’s something I witnessed around the blogothing recently. What they used to call the ‘digital divide’ is being crossed more and more, the old feel of Anglosphere is waning, people from all around are starting to type, and pretty soon you can’t indulge in massive generalizations on the back of fictitious monolithic hypostases like ‘Buddhism’, ‘Latin America’ – even ‘Islam’! without some uppity real person taking offence and interjecting sometimes brutishly. Sigh. A real shame.

Emmy Bee said...

Kirby,

You're being too kind. If I were you--and Mr. Anon'd better be glad I'm not--I'd get the guy's IP address (you can do that as blog admin, can't you?) and report his location to the police.

Someone is truly unhinged, and I really think something ought to be done about it--or perhaps the threat of doing something about it is enough.

God bless you, sweetie, and take care.

Ems

Kirby Olson said...

Thanks, Emmy. It would be one thing if the person would have a name and a face if they wanted to harm my family, but I suppose the thing to do is do what you suggest.

I think it should be possible to think about systems that aren't working. Buddhism seems to work well for individuals, but on a national basis, it clearly isn't providing a solid legal and ethical foundation from which to erect a vocabulary of justice that works.

One could say the same thing about Islam and Latin America.

It's not that the people suffering under those systems are deficient, but it's just obvious that the systems themselves are deficient in terms of the legal and ethical vocabulary they offer. there may be hidden clauses inside the more arcane texts of these disciplines that would offer a better vocabulary, but certainly Buddhists should be ashamed of Myanmar, Cambodia, and other countries in which they are the predominant sect rather than simply and "brutishly" attempt to quell all discussion of their shortcomings.

Or even wish death on the family of anyone who dares to bring up these shortcomings.

I don't find this kind of reasoning to be reasonable!

Aung San Kyi was apparently sentenced again today by a military court in Myanmar. Due to all the brouhaha surrounding the Professor Gates, and ObamaGates contraversy, I haven't heard anybody even mention the Nobel Prize Winner's fate.

Thanks again, Emmy.

stu said...

Kirby—

I am by no means trying to excuse the inexcusable, but you do run a sharp-elbowed place here. Some folks are going to take that too far. Rather than going medieval on them on them, I think you might get better results by taking a deep breath, explaining what the local standards are, and offering them an opportunity to apologize and retract their remarks.

In the meantime, you should feel confident that you have community support, even from old lefties like me.

stu said...

Aung San Kyi was apparently sentenced again today by a military court in Myanmar. Due to all the brouhaha surrounding the Professor Gates, and ObamaGates contraversy, I haven't heard anybody even mention the Nobel Prize Winner's fate.

Not yet.

As for Gates, Crowley, and Obama, Obama has since talked to Crowley, and moderated his comments accordingly. He's also invited Gates and Crowley to the White House for a beer together. I hope it happens, as I suspect that both Gates and Crowley have something to learn, and they'll come out of this with a much better story than otherwise.

Liberal Fascist said...

Kirby Olson :

"I think it should be possible to think about systems that aren't working. Buddhism seems to work well for individuals, but on a national basis, it clearly isn't providing a solid legal and ethical foundation from which to erect a vocabulary of justice that works.

One could say the same thing about Islam and Latin America.

It's not that the people suffering under those systems are deficient, but it's just obvious that the systems themselves are deficient in terms of the legal and ethical vocabulary they offer. there may be hidden clauses inside the more arcane texts of these disciplines that would offer a better vocabulary, but certainly Buddhists should be ashamed of Myanmar, Cambodia, and other countries in which they are the predominant sect rather than simply and "brutishly" attempt to quell all discussion of their shortcomings."

In all seriousness, what the hell are you talking about?

How are the legal and ethical foundations as you put it of a plurality of countries usefully described under such shorthands as Buddhism, Islam or (wtf) Latin America? How can you justify the elision of the various histories, cultural values, social developments differentiating all those far-away places you don't know about so you can thoughtlessly force them all under your own whimsical Orientalist categories? And most of all, how can you pass on the considerable role played by your very own European colonialism in shaping the boundaries, histories and most of all economic status of those places and regions?

Buddhists from Taiwan, Laos and East Berlin should be ashamed about Myanmar? What the hell, you’re pulling my leg. And what about the profound, undeniable role played by us, including your very dear Lutherans, through organisms like the IMF, the World Bank, the WTO, in denying to this very day economic independence to a majority of countries around the world?

Sorry to be pissing on your floor, but the “kill-your-family” guy won’t be the last if you keep on with these nonsensical notions about billions of human beings. You're bound to piss off a lot more people in the coming future.

Anonymous said...

Kirby,
Your blog was actually somewhat peaceful before the entry of Jacques, who fired the first shots. since he has joined, your blog has had quite a different tone. Between GM and the never ending stream of insults from Jacques, I don't really feel that bad sharing my candid thoughts about the two. It appears many people on this blog kind of agree.

--Tom

Jacques Albert said...

stu:

Sorry I haven't more time for correction and instruction about translation (and particularly early modern translation). First confusion: don't know why my blog name (Jacques Albert) didn't appear on the first half of my post on Luther's translation theory, but I thought it should be obvious from the second half of the continued post, which IS rightly attributed.

Second confusion: I HAVE of course consulted in my translation and commentaries the following works, among others particularly treating koine and patristic Greek, as I mentioned before, here:

"A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament (Abbott-Smith), Patrologia Graeca (Migne), A Patristic Greek Lexicon, Septuaginta (Rahlfs), Thesaurus Graecae Linguae (H Stephanus), The New Testament in the Original Greek (Westcott and Hort, supra, etc." as well as many other such works in the Patrologia Graeca, where the sources are much closer to the originals (an important principle in textual scholarship and philology).

Unfortunately, your lack of Latin bars you from hundreds of commentaries upon the Greek that are annotated in Latin. And the easier koine Greek limits your understanding of the overlap between Homeric, Attic, Ionic, etc. dialects which sometimes the apostles (like Paul) and early Church Fathers, whether Clement of Alexandria (2nd c. AD), or Origen (Huet himself translated Origen's Greek commentaries into Latin (in a word for word, or "verbum pro verbo" exercise) on Matthew to the tune of 800 columns in Father Migne's c. 400-volume Patrologia Graeca) Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, right through the Council of Nicaea (4th c.) and Athanasius, Augustine, Jerome (especially his controversy with Rufinus and Melania), Prudentius, Lactantius, Eusebius, and many more. Ignoring the early Church and its controversies and triumphs as biblical interpretation and doctrine were being worked out is one of the great failings of those who put all their eggs in Luther's (though supposedly uniquely divinely-inspired) basket. So God forsook the Christians until (mirabile dictu!) the second Saviour in the person of Martin Luther appeared in shining (though bellicose) glory! (to affect a bit of Gibbon's undercutting style here; but actually the Protestant churchman Henry Chadwick has a useful short volume in the Pelican History of the Church: 1 you might sometime peruse, stu. The Anchor Bible is also useful for its ecumenical contributions from Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish biblical scholars. On translation, the early commentators often reflect what classical authors like Cicero, Horace, and Quintilian wrote on translation (as they were schooled in classical Greek and Latin).

Continued Next

Jacques Albert said...

You'll note also that "without" for "choris" and "independently of" are both listed, which accommodate BOTH Protestant and Catholic authorised versions. Furthermore, I'll certainly not agree that James 2:24 and Romans 3:28 contradict each other anymore than Paul contradicts himself in juxtaposing Romans 3:28 with his remarks on good works in 2: 6-13 in the same epistle ("God, who will render to every man according to his works. Life eternal indeed he will give to those who by patience in good works seek glory and honor and immortality; but wrath and indignation to those who are contentious, and who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity. Tribulation and anguish shall be visited upon the soul of every man who works evil; of Jew first and then of Greek."

You didn't even address the matter of Luther's claim to direct divine inspiration that he denied to other translators. This is "hubris," (a special kind or pride or superbia, the chiefest of the Seven Deadly Sins), which in classical Greek drama leads to "ate" (folly), which then inevitably brings on "nemesis" ("indignation, anger, jealousy that brings on vengeance of the gods or some other retribution--take heed or destruction--be warned, Tom--probably you owe Kirby an apology, no?).

So I'll be frank: Luther's "Sendbrief" readily testifies to his bellicose arrogance and he presides over the first great disaster of the modern world: the split in Western Christendom (the 2nd is the French Revolution, the third the Holocaust. His harsh anti-Semitism and bloodthirsty calls for extermination of peasant rebels ("Kill them! Slay them! he roars in his pamphlet "On the murderous and thieving bands of peasants") in deference to his keepers, the Protestant princes who eagerly carried out his murderous incitements. Anathema sit!

In contrast, Huet had many Protestant friends and colleagues and consulted with rabbis in Jerusalem, urging more humane and deferential treatments of the Jews. And I can document that for you if you're curious.
Cheers, JA

G. M. Palmer said...

Tomeral Fascist,

Certainly the imposition of American Progressivism (or, if you rather, internationalism) on the world post-1945 can be blamed for many ills

but

countries are rarely forced to take loans (though it's happened) -- and if they wouldn't have insisted on being uncolonialized in the first place, they wouldn't have to trade the care of a parent nation for crippling debt to that parent nation.

Moreover -- when Kirby talks about "Islam" he tends to be referring to countries that were once part of the Ottoman Empire -- places that do tend to think and behave in a similar fashion -- much like Europe did (and does) as Catholic and then Protestant. Speaking of Catholics -- um, yeah, Latin America. Once the colonies of two countries, governed in essentially the same way.

JA/JDL -- the tone there was a bit condescending to stu, but certainly interesting.

Tom, why are you a baiting troll? What's the point? Did you get banned from 4chan or something?

Liberal Fascist said...

"Moreover -- when Kirby talks about "Islam" he tends to be referring to countries that were once part of the Ottoman Empire -- places that do tend to think and behave in a similar fashion -- much like Europe did (and does) as Catholic and then Protestant. Speaking of Catholics -- um, yeah, Latin America. Once the colonies of two countries, governed in essentially the same way."

I'm done here.

G. M. Palmer said...

Wow, facts make them go away.

Awesome.

Anonymous said...

Facts are not allowed on this blog. Rather, it favors folksy-intuition like the excursive musings of Palin.

--Tom

Emmy Bee said...

Firstly, I think it is great that Stu and Jacques can discuss at length problems of translating the Bible. Great points on both sides, and I'm very pleased to follow your trains of thought!

I lost my Latinity years ago, so I'm afraid I've not much interesting to say except to commend Stu's continued efforts at learning such a very hard language--so few people, even scholars these days, are at ease with the nuanced and supple Greek.

I, for one, should be studying my Old English again, and polishing up my Middle French in addition to coming to grips with Irish. Very tricky sounds in Irish. Have any of you heard it spoken? We heard Irish often in St. John's. Maybe one of you have studied it? I'd be grateful if any of you could recommend a thorough, reliable textbook for self-study.

Anyway, blah. Got to get back to making dinner. A few comments later on sola fides.

Anonymous said...

Wish death on your family? God forbid!

I was being very civilised and just hoping you experience spectacular failure of some sort (you know, the kind when your health insurance premiums run out, experience eviction or you have to apply for unemployment benefits - jeez, you might end up livin' next to poor people!). The unwelcome outcome of 'hubris' (or horseshit), as cited by the repulsive French-named commentator above.

No need to be so melodramatic, you pussy. Call off the FBI.

Emmy Bee said...

Too late to call 'em off.

Only thing left to do now is to get your goat and head for the hills before they show up.

Good luck, and Godspeed

Anonymous said...

Why can't Christians take a fuckin' joke? So much for 'free speech'. They can be as bad as the Taliban sometimes...

G. M. Palmer said...

Let's recap, shall we?

Hopefully, at some point you may lose your job/home/wife so we can see your endless smug 'investigations' of how wonderful neoliberal capitalist Lutheran bigotry is

hmm, what was that?

"lose your wife"

Now, perhaps Assnonymous thinks this means divorce -- but to at least Kirby, myself, EB and JA (and likely Stu, too) this means death, as it is hard (for me at least) to think of "los[ing my] wife" in any other terms.

Even so, hoping for divorce is equally bad -- and certainly un-Christian.

G. M. Palmer said...

Straw man,
there's no need to be smart
I said straw man
just have a loud bark
don't argue
just make up some shit
and pretend that you mean something

it's fun to be in the
left ist e lite
it's fun to be in the
left ist e lite yes

liberals all have your back
feel free to make attacks
just don't make em on folks that are blaaaack
whi-ter per-

G. M. Palmer said...

edit -- sorry for the "whiter per-" at the end, I was going to make reference to "whiter person" -- the internet jargon (a la stuff white people like) for the current liberal elite. didn't know if it would be too arcane, tho.

Anonymous said...

OK - unpleasant as the above comment was, it was just a SUGGESTION that certain experiences may shake up the (somewhat offensive) assertions on this blog.

Yes, divorce may be 'un-christian' (???) but murder is anti-everything, and I wasn't advocating that.

Apologies for not advocating the mass starvation of poor people, or the blanket bombing of muslim countries. I'll remember to be more 'Christian' next time and never wish for marital problems again.

Emmy Bee said...

Anonymous,

Are you still here? Seriously, get out! They're coming...

Anonymous said...

They just kicked the door in! There putting planting coke on me! Reading me my rights!

They just shot my wife!!!

Anonymous said...

The irony here GM is that I am part of the "folksy-working class" that the Republicans adore. I'm a working man! A wage-slave! I'm a common person out there trying to make a living in the IT world. This is contrasted against the academic big shots that make a living off of US tax-payers in their public unversity jobs. Who are these sycophants feeding at the public trough? I think us mindless folksy-Russians should rise up and depose y'all.

And GM, why were you offended by the Palinesque comment? If you really believe her to be intelligent, why would you be offended? It's a bit telling don't you think? If you told me I had an Obamaesque intelligence, I would shrug my shoulders smugly and not think about it.

--Tom

Emmy Bee said...

O.K., this one is for Kirby, the Lion of Lutheranism and also for Stu.

Just one thing I don't understand.

One of the good things that Protestants have emphasized over the years is the reading of the Bible. The idea is that each believer can benefit from reading scripture, and that this can lead to an increase in faith, and in so doing brings one closer to God.

Something else Protestants have emphasized is the correctness of the Bible, and the truth therein (whether literal, Earthly truth in historical accounts, spiritual truths, or truth to be found in metaphor and parables). I respect this as well.

So what I don't understand is how the same people who value a personal relationship with God through the Bible as well as with God through the shared experience of congregation can then blithely shrug their shoulders when God's true words are omitted or changed.

I understand and respect the democratic impulse behind allowing each believer to approach God's true word in her own way and to let the Truth speak to her individually, but wouldn't altering God's word rob her of that very same experience?

In other words, is Luther's proclamation that James is "an epistle of straw," a denial (or at the very least a diminishing of) the truth therein, and also a denial of the individual believer’s ability to connect with God through His word?

What I’m asking is, is everything in the Bible is true, or are some bits more true than others? And who was Luther to decide which of God’s words were worthy of study, attention, or even inclusion?

It seems to me that Luther’s molestation of scripture has led many into possible error, but more importantly I think that many have been led to believe in Luther’s interpretation more than they believe in the Bible.

G. M. Palmer said...

Oh, Emmy,

Just try asking an ultra-conservative protestant (like a hard-core Southern Baptist or a Pentecostal or Assembly of God) why the KJV is the only bible that should be used. . .

wow.

Tom,

The "Palinesque" comment was insulting because you intended it to be -- you were insulting both me and Gov Palin -- you have frequently called both of our intellects low.

I know mine isn't and hers doesn't appear to be (she apparently got good grades in school and seems to be, you know, savvy enough to get all elected and stuff), though I don't know that she's gifted or anything (not that any president has had a +2sd IQ since Clinton -- and that shows you what being smart will get you).

G. M. Palmer said...

I don't have a public university job,

I'm a much lower bottom feeder.

Luckily, IT guys have poor aim.

And no chins.

stu said...

Jacques—

Repeating arguments doesn't improve them. Repeating lists of references does even less.

Yeah, you have a lot of books, but it seems to me that the quality of references matters more than quantity. I have Louw & Nida, the NAS Lexicon, Spicq, the UBS Lexicon, and Thayer, among others. And remember, I'm a mathematician. BDAG trumps them all, except for Louw & Nida, which remains useful when looking at semantic categories. Please look at this review on Rodney Decker's site, and you might want to follow the link to "Intro to BDAG" to get a sense of the resource.

Unfortunately, your lack of Latin bars you from hundreds of commentaries upon the Greek that are annotated in Latin.

Indeed it does. But I don't buy the notion that there's a crucial argument on one of the central questions of Christianity that exists in only an inaccessible language. If it is that important, then surely someone would have produced a credible translation into English or German. I have the impression that if I had claimed competence in Latin, you'd be telling me about all of these wonderful Etruscan sources. It doesn't fly.

The Anchor Bible is also useful for its ecumenical contributions from Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish biblical scholars.

The "Anchor Bible" is a commentary consisting of over 80 volumes. I have four, acquired for the purpose of a deeper study of particular books. Unfortunately, the earlier volumes (and this often means the more important books) are a bit dated. I have ABD as an add-on to Accordance, and it is very useful in general Bible study. But since the AB commentary series isn't available in machine-readable form, I'm probably going to buy Hermeneia, which is a Fortress series, but draws authors from a broad base of traditions. One of the great strengths of Hermeneia, or so I'm told, is its technical analysis of the texts. I'm sure you'll despise it.

You didn't even address the matter of Luther's claim to direct divine inspiration that he denied to other translators.

May I have a cite for where Luther claims divine inspiration for his translations? I do not recall him making such a claim, and I've read a lot of Luther, including his essay on translation, but I will defer to fact based argument. Show or fold.

You'll note also that "without" for "choris" and "independently of" are both listed, which accommodate BOTH Protestant and Catholic authorised versions.

If you think that "independently of" supports the Catholic reading, good luck at the inquisition, my friend.

Huet had many Protestant friends and colleagues and consulted with rabbis in Jerusalem, urging more humane and deferential treatments of the Jews.

Huet sounds like a lovely man, and a fine scholar. But he lived more than a hundred years after Luther, and did a different kind of work. I sure that Gauss was a better mathematician than Huet (or Luther). Who cares? It's not relevant! It makes no contact with the issues in question. And neither does Huet. If you think Huet has a relevant argument to make, then bring in the argument—naming the man proves nothing.

Your hatred of Luther extends beyond the rational. Certainly you're prepared to grant nothing: if you're proven wrong on one point (e.g., Luther's competence in Hebrew), you jump to something else (the digression on James, etc.). I've made my arguments, and repeating them won't improve them anymore than repeating yours has has improved yours. And in the meantime, our personal technical battle is distracting everyone else from enjoying the spectacle of murderous Buddhists, which is not something you see every day.

Since you've abandoned the initial battlefield, I've met my victory conditions. If you feel you've met your's, then we have a win-win.

stu said...

Emmy Bee—

So what I don't understand is how the same people who value a personal relationship with God through the Bible as well as with God through the shared experience of congregation can then blithely shrug their shoulders when God's true words are omitted or changed.

Please remember that our scriptures were not written in English (or German, or Latin).

The original texts of the New Testament were written in Greek, the original texts of the Old Testament were written mostly in Hebrew, with a bit of Aramaic. Unfortunately, we do not have those texts. What we have are copies of copies of copies to the n-th degree, with errors, edits, and other accidents of history retained and propagated. The occasional discovery of a new papyrus or scroll, or perhaps a quotation in a secondary source from the second or third century, enables scholars to improve the texts we have, or at least gives the grist for the next argument.

Then, translating anything from one language to another raises a host of problems. Sometimes the target language is missing concepts that were important in the source document. Sometimes aspects of the source culture are important if we are to understand what the words signify. There are going to be issues where people of good faith will simply disagree as to what is the most faithful way to translate the underlying texts. Characterizing this as omitting or changing God's word does not advance rational debate on the choices that all translators must make.

What I’m asking is, is everything in the Bible is true, or are some bits more true than others?

Some (Kirby and Jacques, so far as I can tell) hold to what is sometimes called the "long pen" theory of the origins of scripture. This theory claims that God dictated the words of the Bible to its (human) authors, who were really little more than scribes in the process, and that the Bible we have today is precisely "what God intended for us to have all along." A corollary of this particular view is that no part of the Bible can contradict other parts of the Bible.

I believe that the Bible is the end result of a historical process, that began when men (and maybe a couple of women) were inspired by acts of God to write about their experiences, beliefs, etc. Their works were then subjected to a long period of winnowing, where the most useful survived, and lesser books did not. This view of inspiration is open to the possibility that these texts are culturally conditioned, and moreover contain considerable admixture of "mere human opinion." I have no particular difficulty in the possibility that portions of scripture might contradict other parts of scripture, or that some might be more true than others.

And who was Luther to decide which of God’s words were worthy of study, attention, or even inclusion?

An Augustinian monk, priest, and professor. During his preparations to lecture on the Book of Romans, he discovered that the Greek word μετάνοια (metanoia -- change) was translated by Jerome as penance, and this formed the textual basis for the Catholic penitential system of the time. Luther saw in this system a systematic exploitation of the German people, and a great transfer of wealth into the Church. Moreover, he felt that Jerome had simply got it wrong, and that repentance was a more accurate translation. [Note that modern Catholic Bibles use "repentance."] This lead to conflict between Luther and agents of the Church, who seemed to Luther to be more interested in protecting their perquisites than in the truth. The resulting controversies lead Luther to a still more radical reconsideration of the teachings of the Church, based on original language sources, within a University structure that was a prototype of today's Universities.

I recognize that many will find this inadequate, or will wish to add their own "spin" on history.

jh said...

wow knock down drag out
blogflogging punch em again kick em while they're down slap hiss spit c=screech blood cyberblood virtual blood splat broken noses

nothin like a good fight

kirby isn't the very notion of surrealism somewhat violent
you know
the forced juxtaposition of
completely unrelated images or ideas
that's violent isn't it

i think you are fomenting violence and should be ashamed of yourself
even emmybee is in on the fracas with concise blows to the head and groin of i don't know who anymore

i think everyone should just calm down now

kirby's tryin to blow the whistle but he has snot stuck in the whistle hole

let's all just agree to have a farting contest

pphllooooouuuuththtrttt

there's mine

i gotta goto bed

j

Jacques Albert said...

Kirby:

I'm sorry to hear that we've spectre among us; one so mean-spirited with what must be a shrivelled conscience that he'll stray onto pretty transparent menaces innocents when he can't manage a bit of politicised banter; who repeats one vile threat with this sort of muck, as if it should be understood as some semblance of a apology, but may also be taken as an ivitation to further menaces:

"Sorry to be pissing on your floor, but the 'kill-your-family' guy won’t be the last if you keep on with these nonsensical notions about billions of human beings. You're bound to piss off a lot more people in the coming future."

Appalling, though right in lock-step with the expressed sentiments of the odious Bill Ayers and his criminal consort, Bernadine Dohrn. This is standard radical M O, and whatever Tom says about my conservative politics, it's much more mainstream than his brand of extreme left bitter-enderism. Some academics and their wannabe hangers-on who fancy themselves intellectuals because they read a few novels, "The Nation," and the shrill propaganda peddled in "Red" bookstores form the 1% who argue Trotskyist politics in cafes and are offended by the relative opportunity and prosperity around them (like the Russian terrorist in Gide's "Les Faux-Monnayeurs")

Then comes the blame for others (here, me n' G M). Well Tom, you know a bit of Nietzsche ("Will to Power") don't you: "We are so wretched! Someone must be to blame . . . Otherwise, it would be intolerable!"

Then, more insults to you, even while begging for relief not from the injustice of the menaces, but for their consequences (i.e., an investigation).

Then more combined pleading, anger, and blame. Pretty contemptible, all that, may we, with Robert Graves, say goodbye to it all.

Emmy Bee said...

Stu:

LoL, You've discovered Jacques' fault--he doesn't know Etruscan! He's very sensitive about it, so if you could just keep it entre nous, I'd be much obliged!

Actually, though, I think I'll take the rest of the evening to digest your comments on my questions regarding the addition or deletion of bits of the Bible.

Thanks!

jh said...

i guess stu
and i am impressed with the discourse on metanoia
that there is a translation difficulty with the word no matter what
but you are essentially correct in your delineation of preferable terms
penance sees to presume that a person will act
repentance seems to be an inward conscious attitude the recognition of sin....whether acted upon or not

luther was working out of a nominalist mindset
and would thereby generally use the simplest most straightforward word with a nod to the education level of most people

but metanoia at least as it is interpreted in monastic terms implies the dedication of daily acts as a means of penance..now perhaps it could be argued that some will take this too an extreme and force ideas like painful fasting and flagellation
the dangerous tightrope act can land one in the net of spiritual pride it is true
(and some severity has definitely crept into catholic practice here and there...some real zealous kooks who eventually i guess became saints)...in simplest terms the concept suggests a "turning toward"-- the seeking to understand and love -- the need for continual renewal of effort -- so yes
the catholics alwasy took it beyond the inner psychological awareness of sin and made the expectation that people would take their failings into sacramental treatment...confession fasting prayer reconciliation


who was that psychotherapist who wrote the book "whatever happened to sin"?? i think th eobservation was and is more properly that sin is happening all the time more nad more people are failing to acknowledge it and realize there are antidotes and apppelas to grace are beneficial and possible
even if it's jsut a matter of feeling a littel better addressing one's failings and recognizing one's dependence on the one whose name shall never be uttered


the best way to understand the metanoia concept i think is in the analogy of the making up of lovers after a spat
something you'd know more about than i

the effort to continually be one with god is constant...in light of present day widespread decadance i think it wise for christians to get up off their asses pray and make every effort to sanctify their lives

still
i am duly impressed with your explication

peace

i'm reading moby dick
does that count
kirby seems like queequeg to me

j

G. M. Palmer said...

I guess stu and I are short penners.

Me, I stick with the Sermon on the Mount. . .

Craig said...

So if you had a canoe on your back in 1809, what was the shortest, easiest route from the headwaters of the Susquehanna to the Mohawk?

Craig said...

Offhand I'd say that you hang a left just after Oneata, paddle until you run out of stream about ten miles north of Cooperstown and hoof it from there to Fort Plain. My great great great grandfather had a couple of uncles, George and Jacob, who made at least three trips between Bedford PA and Coshocton OH around that time. George's oldest son was born in Coshocton in 1810. His second child was born in Bedford during the War of 1812 and his third child was born in Coshocton. That suggests that things got a little too hot in Ohio during the War of 1812 so they sat it out on the family homestead in the middle of the Juniata. The Juniata flows northeast until it meets the Susquehanna and the portage from the Susquehanna to the Mohawk is about ten miles. From Oswego on Lake Ontario it's just a hop, skip and a jump to Cleveland, then forty miles up the Cuyahoga to Akron, an eight mile portage to the upper reach of the Tuscarawas and a couple hundred miles to the junction of the Tuscarawas with the Muskingum in Coshocton.

G. M. Palmer said...

Craig -- easy.
Dam the river until it swells to just past flood levels, put your boat(s) behind the dam and then break the dam.

Fast transport, little effort.

Craig said...

Those are called locks and they weren't fully operational until about 1830. The Lenape used that route routinely to get from central PA to central OH for decades after the arrival of the Europeans and probably for a number of centuries prior to that. The tricky part was shooting the falls at Niagara.

Kirby Olson said...

Craig, The Susquehanna is a tricky river since it has two major branches which feed into one somewhere in Pennsylvania. It's also apparently the oldest river in the World (Wikipedia). It goes past Oneonta in a relatively unassuming way, but down around Gettysburg PA there is another branch of it. It's a mystery. It seems to be everywhere. When I drive south from here to go to Binghamton I also cross it.

My friend Dale Smith wrote an epic poem about S.T. Coleridge and Southey's pipe dream of a utopia upon its shores.

Coleridge ended up thinking that opium tout simple was a better shortcut to utopia.

River systems are something that the poet Gary Snyder and some others have been trying to get us to think about in terms of nations, or at least Indian nations, based upon them.

The Delaware is closer to me, but even it has two large branches and many subsidiaries. It is the 35th largest river in the US (I don't know if they measure by length or by volume), but it's the only one in the top 50 that's never been dammed. This is because it forms the border between PA and NJ and the two states could never decide on water rights.

At any rate, I don't know the portage issues. I drive everywhere. I did take a canoe ride once down the Delaware and was surprised by its beauty, and would like to do it from here all the way to Philadelphia at some point, maybe to mark my 60th.

One of the problems of the Delaware at this point is something called Japanese knotweed which is choking the banks and is for some reason proliferating madly. I don't know what's going on, but this is something that everybody talks about.

The highways at this point are very good. Even the Eric Canal is only used by pleasure boats exploring this slower past. At this point, my life is too tied up to get into boats. But it's one more thing I should know more about, but don't.

Kirby Olson said...

Emma asked about what gives someone the right to question Scripture. Luther I believe said that the parts we now mark in red were superior to the others.

And we have to be wary of anomalous accretions or bizarre interpretations. Christ's stories are far from clear. He appears to tell us that the end time (then) was imminent, and to not care much about the future or about good governance since the ballgame was about to be called.

Jean Bethke Elshtain writes, "In many ways, Jesus preached an ethic for the end time. He praised those who never married or had children. He was stringent in his teachings on divorce, forbidding it rather than accepting the regulation of divorce in traditional Jewish law. He recommended following the example of the birds and the lilies, who 'toil not, neither do they spin.' Human beings, whatever their glory, cannot array themselves with the beauty of simple creatures and plants, he told his followers. Jesus urged his disciples to rely on grace and, in anticipation of the end time, directed them away from temporal pursuits" (99).

In a nutshell, that's been my experience of reading the red parts. I find them scarcely sentient of the problems of those of us who have children, and must think about worldly matters in order to keep them fed, educated, and likely to be able to pass on whatever talents they may have to their own children and grandchildren.

There are a few key places in Christ's teachings that have been built upon by Augustine and Luther. The two kingdoms notion comes out of the Render unto Caesar passage. I think this is the basis of Augustine's ability to do away with the rather perfectionistic interpretations of one side of Christianity.

Elshtain writes, "For Christians living in historic time and before the end of time, the pervasiveness of conflict must be faced. One may aspire to perfection, but living perfectly is not possible. To believe one is without sin is to commit the sin of pride and to become ever more boastful on the conviction that a human being can sustain a perfectionistic ethic. For St. Augustine, for Martin Luther, and for the anti-Nazi martyr Ditrich Bonhoeffer, the harsh demands of necessity as well as the command of love require that one may have to commit oneself to the use of force under certain limited conditions, and with certain intentions" (101).

Our earthly institutions she says are rather fragile, and we have to maintain them if we are to maintain any uality of life for oiur children. Christ doesn't talk about this side of things. Many Lutherans have therefore decided that Christ's words are about a world to come. He himself says that his kingdom is NOT of this world.

Therefore, the Augustinian-Lutheran spin is to beware of thinking that Christ was talking about this world as one that is perfectible. We think of it instead as a world that is very dark, but not tragic (not hopeless).

Kirby Olson said...

James, Luther felt, led to boasting. That showing off good works led to hubris, and that hubris (a kind of advertising of one's good works along the lines of what Exxon does wrt its donations to the artistic worlds), and that it hides a deeper possibly sleazier and oilier aspect, papering over crimes with lucre.

The Bible is tricky, very ancient, and difficult to really understand well. The wording of the original is hard to translate, and as Stu says, can easily be manipulated to create outcomes which were far from originally intended.

I see the Bible as a series of essays by specific authors written in specific times with a specific context and audience in mind. We have to try to recuperate those times and authors and events, in order to understand it. I'm not a theologian, so I depend on folks like Luther, Reinhold Niebuhr, Paul Tillich, and others, to help me with the interpretation.

All the competing claims for what the Bible means are a little like what the government itself should be like.

Skip Gates recently got back from China where we don't know yet what he was doing. Taking orders from his Maoist gurus? It hasn't been in the papers. We know that Obama believes in enlarging the role of government, and he quotes and his side quotes, from the Sermon on the Mount. They talk about "empathy," and "love." I find this sentimental and revolting. I can't stand too much idealism because I think our thought must be based on a notion of limitations (our world is finite, although Christ's was not),
and I see our world as relative -- it can't be perfect, but it can be relatively better.

We don't have to live under Nazism or under the Myanmar tyranny, but we did have to fight for this. Brave men like Patrick Henry had to make brilliant speeches which stirred the nation to fight off the slavery that the British would gladly have put upon us.

Tillich and others used the Bible to fight Nazy tyranny (he made 122 or something speeches that were broadcast in German between 1942 and 1944 that have recently been published by Westminster Press in Knoxville).

At any rate, the Bible, like our government, must be fought over. It can be used to justify anything from making people pay extra to get their great grandparents out of hell to justify slavery itself (Ham was used in this way in the South during the C. War).

Intrepretation is something we're stuck with. We have to do it. I like the way it's been done in America by some more than others. I prefer Jean Bethke Elshtain to Skip Gates. I prefer McCain to OBama.

I prefer Palin to John Kerry.

It's like the Bible is just another huge map, but it could mean just about anything.

Kirby Olson said...

Which is to say that all of the above are nominally Christian. (I think that Mr. Gates is himself a Christian, though mixed up with liberation theology [which is Marxist and Maoist], like Obama's pastor of two decades, Jeremy Wright.

I much prefer the Catholics of the stripe of Patrick Buchanan or the Evangelicals like Sarah Palin, or the mainstream Protestants.

But Tillich and especially Niebuhr are my mainstays, and they are both straight out of the Lutheran tradition.

Unlike GM, who doesn't believe in war, and is yet a Christian, I think Christians are obliged to get their hands dirty. We must speak out against injustice, and fight for it. But this has to be done carefully.

Elshtain in her book on Just War is outlining some of these limitations. I hope others will read it. I'm on p. 120 out of 188 pages and intend to finish it tonight or tomorrow.

G. M. Palmer said...

Craig -- that's how part of the Sullivan Clinton expedition got to where they were meeting up way back in 1779.

Most of the Iroquois Nation saw it as a very bad sign -- these crazy folks pwning the river.

stu said...

The Susquehanna is a tricky river since it has two major branches which feed into one somewhere in Pennsylvania. It's also apparently the oldest river in the World (Wikipedia). It goes past Oneonta in a relatively unassuming way, but down around Gettysburg PA there is another branch of it. It's a mystery.

It's not that hard. There's an east branch and a west branch, with the confluence at Sunbury, well north of Harrisburg. The main channel heads a bit east of south, passing east of York, and well east of Gettysburg. The west branch comes from the north (naturally) up to Muncy, and from the west and Williamsport. The east branch comes from the east, roughly parallel to I-80, down from Wilkes-Barre.

My uncle's farm (mother's brother's) is at the top of the ridge on the east side of the west bank, backing up on the north side of I-80. I still remember sitting on my grandparent's front porch, watching the graders as they cut diagonally across the back of my uncle's pasture, building the road.

My dad's family comes from Columbia, about halfway between Harrisburg and the Maryland border, where they had to burn the bridge across the river in '63 to prevent Early's corp from crossing, just a few days before the great battle at Gettysburg.

G. M. Palmer said...

Oh we're certainly obliged to get our hands dirty, Kirby.

Just not bloody.

Craig said...

Seems to me that the Erie Canal was quite a bit like a big government public works project. That George Washington, he must have been a real Marxian sort. What do the Lutherans say about Henry Muhlenberg? Did he go to Harvard or to Yale? And his son, the Speaker of the House and first signer of the Bill of Rights, did he get into Harvard? What was his view on the separation of church and state?

Jacques Albert said...

Stu:

Just a note that I lost a long two-part rejoinder to you last night; we're still getting used to the different functions of our new computer, and unfortunately this resulted in a loss of the lengthy post I had not yet fully edited.

And too, it takes longer for me to peck out my messages on the keyboard due to the worsening condition of my nerve-damaged left hand.

But a rejoinder will certainly come later today, though perhaps not 'till evening. My apologies, but I thought it sportsmanlike to alert you that I'd be answering your last two posts with some challenges, so you might prepare for the contest, were you so inclined or should you have the time.

I DO wish you'd take a look at my "Translation Theory in the Age of Louis XIV" (especially the copious notes I've provided for the translation text and the introduction). Unlike the commentary on this blogsite, a scholarly work should exhibit much more gentlemanly restraint in its exposition and argument, so you certainly wouldn't find there the politically-charged agonistic rhetoric that Kirby's postings and this blogsite crew's comments invite. If your university is of any size or prestige it should have a copy--but you can check on the U of Chicago World Cat for institutions round the world where it is offered as a loan book, and I think you'll agree that very few of the best are lacking it. You can easily order it through inter-library loan, for it's a bit pricey at 65 pounds UK or ninety USD. Not sure why Kirby hasn't ordered it for his school, but perhaps there just isn't the interest in languages and translation at his SUNY branch. Perhaps they don't even teach classical languages there, though at Hillsdale College (with its mere 1200 students), of its roughly 110 faculty, there were fourteen full-time and two part-time professors (all PhDs) of classical and modern languages, including degree programmes in Greek, Latin, French, Spanish, and German in addition to courses in Hebrew and Italian. A mio parere (in my view), this should be the standard at ALL colleges and universities that affect to be anything more than trade schools, just as I think that math, science, history, philosophy, great literature (including non-fiction essays), etc. should dominate the curriculum after the traditional grammar (which includes classical languages and routine translation exercises), rhetoric (no non-classicist should be allowed to teach this at university, as Donald Lehman Clark has it in his classic, "Rhetoric in Greco-Roman Education"--i.e., English and Latin instruction by the same college-prep teacher (as it tended to be at Hillsdale's academy, als in die gut alte Zeit, nicht wahr?), and logic (I should think either mathematics or philosophy teachers should offer this essential study to students). For the rest, trade or vocational training.

Jacques Albert said...

Continued:

At any rate, I haven't conceded anything at all to your main points, for I think you're into this field of translation (its nature, history, theory, praxis, and process) as applied to biblical translating and exegesis far over your head, and though you've surely the enthusiasm (yes, you do seem to be filled with Luther's God) and the ability, at this point as I see it, you simply lack the necessary familiarity with the sources (primary and secondary), languages, literary and rhetorical vocabulary, etc. to persuade--certainly for the levels of confidence and--mi scusi, dottore--condescension you've shown so far--and the speciousness of your arguments and your lack of linguistic competence in areas that are de rigueur for an adequate grasp of the problems and sources necessary to investigate if one is to begin serious study of the history of translation invites a response like that of the ancient Sceptic Metrodorus that you don't even know what you don't know.

So, stu:

Animo igitur virili & praesenti ut simus, providendum est, quando adest adversarius, & fortis, & armatus, qui gladitorio animo viam ad nos affectet, quique & feriendus sit, & repellendus.

Philological debates and discussions in early modern times often bristle with such battlefield imagery.

In English, this quotation of Huet's can be translated thusly:

"Well then, so that we may be of a manly and resolute mind, it must be forseen that when an adversary both brave and well-armed is at hand, and who may strive to make way at us with the spirit of a gladiator, such a man may also have to be battered and driven off."

At any rate, Huet's work on translation theory exemplifies the classic Ciceronian dialogue found in several of Cicero's rhetorical and other works (e.g., exordium, partitio, divisio, definitio, narratio, (bis) confirmatio, confutatio--in contrariam partem--peroratio, etc.). Of course Cicero was bilingual and equally adept at Greek, so both languages are necessary for an adequate understanding of his works.

Jacques Albert said...

Continued:

I wish I had your apparent quickness of mind, for what meagre learning I have "smells of the lamp," as Horace has it somewhere, and is the product of juggling the exigencies of rearing a son alone, usually full-time work, and often full or part-time study, especially of classical and foreign tongues, history (in which I also took an M A), or philosophy. Now Latin was the lingua franca in the West for anyone with pretensions to any scholarship or learning for 2000 years, and so it behooves us to learn it just to participate in the intellectual, artistic, or cultural life of those formative millennia in the West. So, take Horace's other words to heart and learn Latin, just as Kirby has begun to do in fits and starts, for

"Dimindium facti qui coepit habet: sapere aude" ("He who begins a task has half it done; dare to know.")

Perhaps you've some reticence in learning Latin because it was (and still is to a certain extent, and the present Holy Father, Benedict XVI, seems favourably inclined towards its resurrection as a liturgical language) the official language of the Roman Catholic Church, but I assure you that Tertullian may have been right when he wrote that "the sun shines his light in the sewers and is not polluted." Along with Greek and modern languages, it's the only way to achieve the palm due to a liberally-educated person, as opposed to the mere "banausoi" ("mechanics" [think of Shakespeare’s comical “rude mechanicals” in MSND]—over whom Duke Theseus and his consort make great sport-- or "illiberally-educated or vulgar persons," or "human tools" [if you will] in the Aristotelian sense) like Tom and brett, who know little and would seem to want to know even less.

As in poetry, painting, or literature, in philology there are few prodigies, unlike in mathematics, chess, and music; this linguistic discipline tends rather to be cumulative rather than intuitive, and it usually requires considerable propaedeutical instruction and study if one is to get one’s learning (as the Italians say) “in gamba,” or literally “on its feet.” Although the formidable Joseph Scaliger learned ancient Greek in three weeks by reading Homer’s “Iliad,” the self-taught Huet later was the formidable translator of Origen’s lengthy commentaries on Matthew as well as earlier of the Greek pastoral romance “Daphnis and Chloe” (at twenty-one), and T S Eliot, who cut his teeth on the “divina commedia” in the course of learning Italian, these accomplishments are rare.

Yet I see this has grown far longer than I would have it, so until I present my challenges to your last posts, cheers,
JA

stu said...

Jacques—

If your university is of any size or prestige it should have a copy--but you can check on the U of Chicago World Cat

I checked, we have a copy. It's circulating, so I'd have to do a recall. I'll think about it—I don't like the thought that my hobbies might interfere with someone's scholarship.

mi scusi, dottore--condescension you've shown so far

Condescension? None was intended, and I regret if that's the impression you've received. The only attitude I would have wanted to present was (1) that of someone earnestly seeking knowledge, and (2) someone who is categorically unwilling to accept proofs based on authority rather than argument. As for anything else, sharp elbows given will get sharp elbows in return, even from good friends.

Perhaps you've some reticence in learning Latin because it was ... the official language of the Roman Catholic Church

Not at all. I don't agree with all of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, just (like most Lutherans) the great majority. We fight like siblings, to be sure.

No, my reticence is simply a function of how I choose (and have chosen) to spend the hours of my life. I'm not a philologist by training, and have made no pretenses beyond those of a willing amateur. I don't have forty hours a week to devote to this—even ten is stretching things and is probably unsustainable. My desire to learn Greek is simply based on a desire to penetrate the veil of translation. If I do a language after Greek, it would probably be Hebrew, for the same reason. Latin does not offer corresponding benefits.

What I have found disappointing, though, is your unwillingness to actually engage in argument. You prefer to allude to arguments in third-party sources, and your knowledge thereof. You come across as a thorough-going partisan in a war between Catholics and Lutherans. I have no need or interest in fighting such a war, nor in the polemics thereof. My goal is to seek understanding, and, truth be told, your posts have not contributed as much as they should have, given your hard-won knowledge of the area.

Jacques, I accord you the titles of scholar and colleague. If and when you're willing to accord me the same consideration, and to approach these matters as joint seekers of truth, rather than as antagonists, we should continue this discussion.

Emmy Bee said...

GM:

"Oh, Emmy,

Just try asking an ultra-conservative protestant (like a hard-core Southern Baptist or a Pentecostal or Assembly of God) why the KJV is the only bible that should be used. . ."

I know, I know. Silly, right? But I guess I come from the unself-conscious school of learning which lets me ask stupid questions. I suppose in matters of religion if you have to ask you'll never know.

Even so, never hurts to ask!

Kirby Olson said...

James, Stu is a MATHEMATICIAN, he never said he spent his life in translation.

He's just learning about it.

You spent your life in translation. Give him a break for Pete's sake. It's like telling Jesus he wasn't that good at throwing a frisbee or something even if He IS the son of God. It's NOT his specialty.

Come on. We're all just trying to learn things from each other here.

This is untoward. He's already asked you to please calm down a little! It's like around here now if someone's not getting shoved, they shove.

Why on earth is this happening in my blog? This was supposed to be like the cone of silence where everybody could talk and be misheard!

Kirby

Kirby Olson said...

You're acting like a Buddhist!

brett swanson said...

Oh Jacques, I was just trying to save people's time!

Bucco always said we only have a limited amount of time on this planet, so we need to be careful about what we read.

Most of what you write is just so darned vacant as to be a waste of time! Luckily, the fact that it's dressed in an empty self-righteous intellectualism is quite clear to all, so you're being summarily dismissed rather consistently, as well it should be.

Why do conservatives view 'getting under someone's skin' as a virtue?

It's weird, and gross, like a booger on a slumlord's cheek.

jh said...

the cone of silence where everyone could be misheard

that's sort of precious
i like it

j

Jacques Albert said...

Kirby:

"Cet animal est tres mechant; on l'attaque, il se defend!"

No, Kirby, it's not a matter of expertise in my field; it's a matter of wrongly inferring or just asserting the opposite of what I stated (e.g., that I believe in the "inspirational" theory of biblical translation, where I clearly stated that, with Jerome, Erasmus, and Joseph Scaliger, and against Augustine and Luther, I hold precisely to the opposite "humanist" view and I gave a source [Werner Schwarz--not a Catholic, BTW], though your sources quoted favourably are invariably Protestant and sometimes over-the-top hostile to Catholics). You yourself recently wondered why I didn't more strenuously object to your rabid anti-Catholicism, AKA raw bigotry--so in Catholic countries there is only superstition, laziness, filth, poverty, illiteracy, etc. So I counter with ten or so traditionally Catholic countries that don't fit your prejudice and you ignore that or you get pissed. . . .

You challenge my credibility as a Vietnam war vet and my service-related disability and then immediately back off. . . . So I send you documentation days ago and get not a word of apology. . . . Have you opened the envelope I sent you last Sunday yet, Kirby?

Then stu says that I'm just repeating myself in my second post though I brought up for the first time ever the question of the apparent contradiction in Paul on good works (if they have nothing at all to do with justification) between
Romans 3:28 and Romans 2:6-13. Even though stu holds that I'm just repeating myself, go back and see whether I mentioned this before my second post. I didn't, but stu didn't even mention it. Even Luther admits that Paul never yokes the adjective "alone" to the word "faith" (in over 200 references, but more on that later).

I'll leave you with some stirring words of His Holiness Dr Martin Luther from the close of his open letter on translation, and see if I've said anything quite as, well, um, "spirited," here:

Even though Christians have participated in some little parts of the papal abomination, the papal donkeys have not yet proved that they did it gladly. Still less does it prove that they did the right thing. All Christians can err and sin, but God has taught them all to pray in the Lord's Prayer for the forgiveness of sins. God can very well forgive the sins they had to committ unwillingly, unknowingly, and under the coercion of the Antichrist, without saying anything about it to the priests and monks! It can, however, be easily proven that in the whole world there has always been a great deal of secret murmuring and complaining against the clergy, that they are not treating Christendom properly. And the papal donkeys have courageously withstood such complaining with fire and sword, even to the present day. This murmuring proves how happy Christians have been over these abominations, and how right they have been in doing them! So out with it, you papal donkeys! Say that this is the teaching of Christendom: these stinking lies which you villains and traitors have forced upon Christendom and for the sake of which you murderers have killed many Christians. Why each letter of every papal law gives testimony to the fact that nothing has ever been taught by the counsel and the consent of Christendom. There is nothing there but districte precipiendo mandamus ["we teach and strictly command"]. That has been their Holy Spirit. Christendom has had to endure this tyranny, which has robbed it of the sacrament and, not by its own fault, it has been held in captivity. And still the donkeys would palm off on us this intolerable tyranny of their own wickedness as a willing act and example of Christendom — and thereby acquit themselves!

Truly Dr Luther was here touched by the Holy Spirit, as also when he wrote his "inspirational" pamphlet urging the princes his protectors to exterminate their rebellious peasants ("Kill them!" "Slay them!" he roars) and as when he violently denounced the Jews, who often and traditionally found their best protectors in the Catholic popes.

Cheers,

JA

G. M. Palmer said...

EB

I just meant that if you really want to make your head spin with ignorance of the obvious, ask that question.

Many of them are either unaware that the bible wasn't written in the King's English or that somehow those KJV folks got the only "real" copies and that all other translations are in some way "satanic"

google that shit, yo.

clazy.

jh said...

it would seem that one of kirby's big summer plans was to reach a hundred comments on a thread in two consecutive sequences in two seperate but related
blogposts at the sane time
goals can be fun
way to go blowhard

j

Kirby Olson said...

Jacques, Romania is Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic.

And they're far from rich. Average salary is now about 400 a month.

Not quite 5 grand a year. Not a place of material wonders.

You listed countries, but not GNPs, and you didn't stack them per capita next to Lutheran countries.

I don't know the translation issues, but I think we should treat each other as Christ would want us to -- as if the other might actually BE Christ.

Because you never know, particularly with strangers. And everyone here is a stranger to one another. None us have met except JH and Sally.

And Tom and I, but under different circumstances.

I did open your Vet's envelope, but I wasn't challenging your status. I was reminding everyone that you had been a soldier, so you have a right to speak of combat in a way that the others here really don't. At any rate, he did hurt his hand and it IS service-related, but apparently not combat-related.

He served in Vietnam from June to December of 1970, but hurt the hand in 1969, but the etiology of the injury is not recounted.

Ok?

I don't know what I think about translation. Poe is better in Baudelaire's French. In French, Poe is a great author.

In English, I think he is a bit of a hack.

stu said...

Jacques—

I choose to address a single issue.

Evidently I mischaracterized your views on Biblical inspiration. I apologize for having done so.

By way of explanation but not excuse, I had taken your earlier strong denial of the possibility that James might be contradiction Romans as a special case of a more general belief that scripture cannot be in conflict with itself. In retrospect, this was an unwarranted extrapolation, and I regret it.

--

The next part I would rather write to you privately, but as you do not publish contact information, I have no reasonable alternative but to write through this venue.

The process, in discussion, of occasionally attempting to characterize another participants position, is absolutely routine. Such efforts are often valuable checkpoints in making sure that effective communication is taking place, and serve as opportunities for correction of misunderstandings.

There is an obligation in most forums, and I would hope this one as well, to resolve ambiguous situations in the direction of greater charity. In this case, it would have been more charitable for you to assume that I had somehow misunderstood your position, than to assume that I was trying to maneuver you onto a false position. I believe we would have both been better served if you had simply pointed out the error, which I would have even more gladly acknowledged then, rather than filing it away for later as evidence of perfidy.

I say this in all humility, all to aware that I have transgressed in this matter too on occasion.

Jacques Albert said...

Kirby:

Thanks for acknowledgement of the documents I posted you. That you back-pedaled quickly (without outside prompting) from your own initial challenge to my war record is to your credit. A bit more specific than "hurt hand" is "significant nerve damage in the left hand caused by two major surgeries, which partially severed the median nerve as a result of an physician-undiagnosed severe staph infection."

No hard feelings, of course; same goes for Tom and brett--it's just that when I read personal attacks or mocks thrown at me or vicious slanders flung at Bush, Palin, Republicans or conservatives in general, etc. then I simply take up the defense when warranted--and if you'll reread the threads as I have--I think you'll see that the prompts for verbal street-fighting usually come from Tom's far-left (consider again, the political barometer of the nation as a whole) expressions or from brett's flaccid-left laodiceanism. Et vocatus, respondeo. It's just that Tom and brett's verbal vehicles may not be quite, well, tuned up enough to compete in the race. I'm even willing to forgo the pleasure of answering Tom's sidewalk psychoanalysis of me in kind, for I know the lingo quite well after having worked in a mental unit and also from having made a special study of the whole (mostly bogus) field of psychiatry.

At any rate, I'll try to stick to critiquing what they say--if it's even worth my consideration at all. On occasion I've even had to agree with Tom (mirabile dictu!), which several times in the past astonished him. But if I read personal digs at me or Emmy from Tom and brett (as are abundantly supplied in your archives), then all bets are off, right, Kirby?

I even think I may have established a bit of rapport with Ed Baker (though he might well deny it), but I'd like to hear more of his travels and tales, as I've said to him. Don't seem to raise too many sparks with regular contributors like G M (which seemed to irritate Tom, just as he also was rankled that I didn't attack you, in between nonsensical grumblings about this being a right-wing site), jh, WW, or my wife Emmy (after three years, Kirby, please, it's "Emmy"), or occasional contributors like Sally (though I do disagree often with Deadmule, but I rarely comment on her posts) or now, George Grady. And I welcome the addition of stu, to whom I'll address a few more challenges to his translation posts anon.

Many of the incendiary things you say, I do take cum grano salis as statements to provoke commentary or to provide backhanded humour. I've addressed a few, especially the anti-Catholic ones, but most I leave alone as not worth my time to comment upon and because jh is so much sounder and deeper on doctrine than I am.

On the per-capita GNP stats on Austria, Ireland, Belgium, Italy, Spain, France, Slovenia, Portugal, Luxembourg (Catholic, and the richest in the world), southern Germany (and Canada at 43% and Switzerland at 42% are nearly half-Catholic), as well as smaller nation-ettes like Lichtenstein, Monaco, Andorra, the Vatican, San Marino, and Malta really don't seal the deal on your dismal thesis about Lutheran-Scandinavian supremacy. The figures are easily obtainable from Wikipedia (though remember Disraeli's crack about stats--and there's no "happiness" index I know of to measure nations against each other; in an idle moment I'll try to obtain the specific relative rates of child sex abuse, production of pornography, drug use, and suicide in Scandinavia that I once saw). BTW: Lutheran Greenland ranks below a number of countries, including Slovenia (they're roughly on par with Catholic Malta), half-Lutheran Namibia is a basket case, and the significant percentage of Lutherans in Estonia (26%) still leaves it behind Catholic Slovakia.

Jacques Albert said...

stu:

Accept too my apologies for any offense I committed by overstatement or partisan bias.

Know too, that I read Rodney Decker's review article on the BDAG of Walter Bauer et al, and found it most interesting. I'm reading another of his articles, "The Rehabilitation of Heresy," which opposes some of Bauer's theses about early Christianity while acknowledging his great lexical contributions to the study of koine Greek. Thanks for the lead!

Of course, I'll also consult Catholic Bible experts, e.g., Francis T Gignac, SJ, who's also written a review (Catholic Bible Quarterly, 1980) of Bauer's work, for as you must know, we do consider the authority of the magisterium in such matters.

Much of the controversy on the inspirational theory, as you probably know, concerns the controversy over the Jewish Septuagint Hebrew to Greek translation and the subsequent accretions of legends surrounding it (e.g., the Letter of "Aristeus," the remarks of Philo Judaeus, and Christian authors' "prefiguration" arguments concerning many Jewish Bible (OT) passages. I've copious notes on these topics in my book; I only hope I haven't said anything downright silly. But in the book I tried to keep my analyses as non-partisan and as free from offense to any religion as possible. My main focus is exposition rather than judgement of any translation theory or individual practice, though I think Huet ([BTW excursus] who was quite up to date on the mathematics and science of his day and was a correspondent of Fermat, Huygens, Leibnitz, and other mathematical and scientific luminaries--he even made a few contributions to the science of the day himself, as well as editing and annotating classical texts and the novels of his friend Mme de Lafayette--Huet even wrote a few himself; he wrote memoirs, histories, and philosophical works, the last of which the co-founder of FIRE and my academic acquaintance, Alan Kors of the U of Pennsylvania has written on extensively) has important things to say about translation now, and many of these topics are covered in my notes.

I made not a few notes on your posts, but, like you, I'd prefer to exchange them in a private email correspondence. Kirby can give you my email address (as you already know I have enemies, or at the least, spirited adversaries), and I'll look forward to hearing from you as soon as you are able. Thanks again for joining Kirby's "petite bande" (Proust's term), and thanks for your generous and charitable words of humility that humble me even more. Until our next exchange, then, I am your humble servant who shakes your hand warmly,

JA

stu said...

Jacques—

Thank you very much for your note. I am delighted to accept your hand, and return the generous spirit in which it was offered.

I'm reluctant to ask Kirby to play the role of intermediary, as it is unnecessary: my blogger profile is public, and contains a pointer to one of my email addresses. You're literally two clicks away.

Kirby Olson said...

Jacques, please just write directly to Stuart Kurtz, who is the Mystery Poster on the top right. He's a professor at the University of Chicago, in Chicago, Illinois.

That'll save me switchboard duty.

Glad we're all getting back into the soup. And I hope it's not just entropy that's creating the fusion, but rather, Obama's much-vaunted "empathy."

Emmy Bee said...

Kirby,

Thanks for facilitating. I'll make sure that Jacques knows how to contact Stu directly by tomorrow.

Stu,

Thanks for taking the hand of peace (though in disagreement). Actually, I think you're pretty cool. I'd very much like to comment on your most recent blog posting which is of great interest to me.

Way go to, Gentlemen! Some gentleness and civility. I very much admire it, especially in the face of recent foreign rudeness and shameless threats.

Pink clouds and fluffy rainbows to you all,

Ems

stu said...

And I hope it's not just entropy that's creating the fusion, but rather, Obama's much-vaunted "empathy."


I think, rather than empathy, it's good old fashioned civility. If we want civility, we have to practice civility, even (perhaps especially) in the face of disagreement. There's no reason we have to agree, and indeed, in some cases, we come from such different places, and are bound to such different commitments, that agreement is probably impossible. But we can get along, and we can see humanity in one another.

Jacques Alberrt said...

Hear, hear, stu (passes the claret)! Cheers, bottoms up, and to your health, sir!

stu said...

... and to yours!

Brett said...

Yous guys is all douchebags :-)

Jacques - I just don't like it when you waste your brain with your repetitive lines of insult.

you may think that somehow usin' big words makes that a worthwhile exercise, but it doesn't - it's shameless and silly.

I try to point this out to you by responding in kind, but not in 'quality' - when you give your jabs and punches with line after line of quote here, foreign language there, what I read under it all really IS the blahblahblah I so blahblahblah'd you with.

It always seems so empty and pointless and masturbatory...

You also have a tendency to inflate things - you seem like a guy who'd return a slap to the face with a bazooka. Not quite the way to civility and peace. But then, you've recently almost gotten into a fistfight, something which has never happened to me in my life ever, and I don't see why it ever should.

That being said, you've calmed recently, and that's nice, but we'll see - you seem to be a man of many moods, so who knows what'll spark the spitter up next!

When you talk about Issues or Ideas, you're an intriguing cat - when you go on and on with knee-jerk conservative insults, condescension, or boasting, it gets tedious!

Sometimes I 'pick up the rope,' sometimes I don't. recently I did. So it goes...

Oh, and if someone insults Palin, I still don't see why you respond by insulting said someone.

She ain't yo momma! Don't take things so personally!

And you must also remember that our first interactions came as I was defending somewhat liberal positions, and you went ahead and demeaned me for living up to all sorts of liberal stereotypes that don't actually apply to who I am...and you kept doing it!

Your recent civility doesn't erase your long history of attacking and demeaning those who disagree with you--- I like where you're headed these days, but don't pretend like you were 'ze guiltless victim in the past.

Jacques Albert said...

brett:

Well, I've got to agree with you this time about my insulting you back--but it's all a joke to you anyway, so why just sit back and watch the words go by? Still, it must be irritating to have to tax one's walnut-size brain and to fumble through a dictionary while moving one's lips in order to get even a dim glimmer of meaning about how one's being insulted?

Now how 'bout somethin' you CAN ken n' copy with y'r crayon n' Big Chief note pad, brett, like, "O brett, wise and sensible as a chicken, you gapin', droolin', brayin', heehawin' jackass!

Anonymous said...

I have to agree with Brett regarding his observations of Jacques. When he actually offers some content he can be interesting. When he resorts to insult mode and his never ending nasal whining about how left-wingers have derailed his careers it is quite tiring. Perhaps people at UW just didn't like you Jacques? Maybe they couldn't be in the same room with you? I would understand that position. Most people that are hated by their colleagues don't get the promotion; it's just a simple fact in the work place.

--Tom

Kirby Olson said...

But maybe he really was hated for his IDEAS rather than for his personality.

At any rate, the few conservatives at the UW got along very well with Jacques.

The Jewish Studies professor and he got along wonderfully, and he got along with William Dunlop (who was conservative in at least his reading of literature, and his distaste for French theory, and the likes of Baudrillard, who laughed at America when we were hit on 9/11).

I think many of the people who had good taste at the UW liked Jacques.

I never met him. I don't think our transits through that site happened simultaneously.

At any rate, he seems to be calming down with the insults. You guys should stop it, too.

enough insults about his age, Brett, and enough insults about Sarah Palin, if you want the decency returned.

I think we should try to present ourselves within a moral framework so that our ideas can be at least considered by all sides.

Otherwise, the rhetoric of my penis is bigger than yours, and therefore, my thinking is more relevant to the society at large (anonymous' logic) will render the blog unreadable to all and sundry.

Anonymous said...

I really doubt it. I'm sure Jacques treated every leftist grad student/prof like they were idiots. Consequently, they probably disliked him and wanted him to move on. It's just human nature to want people you dislike to go away.

--Tom

Jacques Albert said...

Well, Tom your "sure" speculations are groundless delusions; at the U of W they certainly liked my WORK (all As in every seminar). After my orals and writtens the head of the dept then, Tom Lockwood, was reported by one on my board as saying, "at last, a candidate who KNOWS something" and also later that my diss was the most scholarly they'd had in twenty years of the hundreds presented.

What some of the administrators in the English dept DIDN'T like was that I turned their own lax rules on themselves and got six of of my eight examiners for the writtens and orals from the Comp Lit, Germanics, and Classics depts (including the heads of the all these depts).

In spite of political differences I had enough friends and regularly drank beer with Dunlop, Fisher, et alii and was a regular at the whist table in Roger Sessions's office (along with other various faculty players like "Black Jack" Brenner). Years after finishing my readership with Joanne Altieri I continued to render her services during her battle with MS. And I got invited to too many parties to attend by faculty (a few conservatives from other depts., but also by others who didn't agree with but respected my independence of view). And once a week I drank with my Boeing engineer buddies ("Moon Night" at the Blue Moon Tavern on 35th St near the U). And I was chosen state secretary for the Washington state NAS. Talkin' out of the wrong end again, Tom.

Anonymous said...

Yawn. Are we done winding each other up now Jacques?

--Tom

 
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