Sunday, July 19, 2009

TIME IN LUTHERANISM, BUDDHISM, and MARXISM

Buddhist thought is about getting to the timelessness of now, and thus appears at least to outsiders as a theory of moments.

Lutheran thought posits that things "take time," but that we never actually arrive at perfection, and patience for the return of Christ asks us to think instead that we are stuck in time, perhaps for millenia. Lutheranism thus posits basic time-bound institutions: family, church, government, and argues that these will outlast our own individual selves, and that we must try to accomplish what we can through them, as our time is valuable.

Marxism posits a time when the lion will lie down with the lamb, and that history will be over. Their theory of institutions lies in the notion that all bourgeois institutions must first be destroyed for anything to rise out of the ashes. In the Soviet Union they wanted to destroy not only the railroads, but also language itself, and its subject-object nature. They wanted to free the object, and turn everything into a subject. Marxists don't have a theory of nature. They think everything can be changed, including the Aral Sea, to serve the proletarian state. Communism is aberrant capitalism without limits. All institutions are controlled by the military wing, and there are no competing institutions. Even reality itself is not considered (until too late) to be considered a rival institution.

Luther believed that competition, even within families, was the norm. He argued that a husband and wife would rarely see eye to eye, and found humor in this. Like Augustine, he didn't think peace was possible in this world, and that when it did happen, it was a temporary stay against the constant strife that this world demands. Three minutes a year of peace is about what Lutherans think is possible, and even that may be illusory.

Marxists enact five-year plans, accompanied by giant leaps forward, beggaring their peoples with planning that is centered on a single individual's ideas. Anyone who gets in the way of Cyclopsean planning, is cannibalized, or put in cold storage.

Marxism works like an ant colony in which the matriarchal queen demands what needs to be done, and you do it to the best of your ability, or face the mandibles of the state.

Lutheranism doesn't proffer a planned economy. We believe with Adam Smith that God has given each of us a talent and it is ours to suss out, and fulfill it according to our own imagination, within an ever-diversifying economy.

Buddhists don't seem to believe in progress, or in doing anything. Even swatting a fly is a distraction from the possibility of stillness which could offer a momentary nirvana, and glimpse of Nothingness. Sitting around doing nothing is considered the highest act, and so the best thing to do in Buddhism is nothing at all. Until recently the most frequent do-nothings in Buddhism were the adult men. Now of course women are also offered nunneries (even in theory in Tibet), but they don't seem to believe that they have to make a living. Like the Catholics, they think that others should support them.

In Myanmar for instance the Buddhist monks go out every day and beg for alms from an increasingly impoverished population dealing with the communist juggernaut that has been in place since the 1960s. Myanmar is a communist state run by the military (there are no other competing institutions, and the military is all-powerful -- their armament is furnished by Red China, and they can do anything they wish, and no one dares to complain). The monks don't have a prayer against the military, as they don't have rifles. The only insurrectionary movement is run out of Karen state, the only portion of the country that has a large Christian minority.

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=82,5211,0,0,1,0

(Link furnished by Jack Daw, a newly arrived Buddhist commentator.)

There are a few powerful individuals mostly under house arrest such as Nobel Prize Winner Aung Kyi, but they lack a military wing, and their only weapons are either talking, or self-immolation. Neither of which have any effect on the military, who can imprison anyone in the country as long as they wish.

We do appear to be stuck in time and to be stuck in a natural state that is organized around competition. Therefore, it only makes sense that the state not have a monopoly on competition, and that there be many competing factions to up the ante of competition. Competition is an overall good, that sharpens our wits and ups our own level of ability. This is why Lutheran Surrealism seeks to attract the best minds from various traditions and to create an agonistic conversation in which our time on earth, and the values that it might contain, are assessed.

For us, I think, it is children and education, first. Then of course the freedom of inquiry that is the basic mandate under which education thrives. Finally, competing viewpoints must be allowed, since no two people can ever agree on anything, because they occupy different points in space and time, and have different perspectives, therefore. The ant colony is not our model. Nor is it the solitary frog, about to jump into a pond, as is celebrated in the Basho haiku. Our model is also not a barrel of monkeys, though it may appear to be that way in this particular blog.

What we want are: competing institutions (checks and balances), the revival of the notion that God has given us the gifts of various orders (in particular the family, the church, and the state), and that we must at all times keep in mind that competition will never cease, but that we want the competition to be fair, so that the best in any given sphere of life will win out, thus ensuring continuing survival, and the thriving of our individual talents within a greater perpetual motion machine called the economy.

47 comments:

Ed Baker said...

the same lesson plans in every school at every level in every state, county, burg in the USA

how can 'that' foster "freedom of inquiry" ?

teach the children
how to buy the latest gizmos

ad nausea

jh said...

the catholic sense of time and work
we have always been pauline
let them make their way by the work of their hands
and we've always upheld the dignity of workers
long before the socialists thought about it
manual labor
intellectual labor
charitable labor
these are and always have been the big three

the liturgy is the locus whereby time and the timeless meet
(ts eliot perceived this)

josef pieper wrote a good book
leisure the basis of culture
where in he depicts the sense of ordered time and reflective work in the monasteries in effect laid the foundation upon which europe developed...a balance between the divine office - the work of god- and the work of the hands and the minds

twas the greedy industrialists that forced the idea of labor time
all of them protestant or atheist
(same thing)

everyday should have time for song for prayer for eating good food with friends for study for reflective thought for manual labor
some conversation about poems
for walks for fishing for playing croquet and for some wine in the evening

competition is highly overrated
who needs it
i admire the losers
justice and dignity and integrity within the struggle

when people can be together in silence
that is the good thing

there really is no time
just the human restlessness to try to manage the unmanagable which takes quite a bit of energy
people need some activity

to do things as if doing nothing at all
that is a good buddhist goal
i like it

the protestants all felt they could do more to control the world nature time people...we've suffered greatly with the new pelagianism of protestantism

on any given day it should be enough to merely be
marvel at the fact of existence
an wonder about the unravelling of the day
most of the problems of the world have to do with people doing too much

progress is a social function that seems to ignore the end results of digestion...to its embarrassing discredit

for every inch of prgress there is a foot of despair

life is about doing nothing beautifully...that takes some seriousness (ness)

christ placed the poor nad the suffering in the great chairs of the nobility
sure they got them all dirty
and what a delight

j

Jacques Albert said...

Kirby: Can I can assume that your Lutheran pastor has a profession or trade other than that of clergy-man or woman to support him- or herself? And you must be aware of the fact that monks and nuns DO often work (as certainly is required among the Benedictines) as well as sell a variety of monastery- or convent-produced products. Perhaps jh could enlighten us further on this issue.

It does seem on occasion that you appropriate good qualities of Christianity in general for Lutheranism.

And there is the "sola" issue, as Luther supplied to what he pejoratively called the "epistle of straw" (James, because of its teaching on the necessity for good works)) in adding words to Scripture (as in his use of "sola fides" where only "fides" is warranted in the Greek or Latin texts of James 2:24).

And considering the sanctitry of family life you claiom for Lutheranism, what of Luther's sanction of the bigamous marriage of Philip of Hesse?

Jacques Albert said...

Sorry for the typops on this new keyboard.

Jacques Albert said...

jh: Thanks for your thoughts on Kirby's post, though the brilliant Catholic philosopher Josef Pieper would certainly object to the term "intellectual labour" (see his book "Leisure, the Basis of Culture').

Justin said...

Buddhists don't seem to believe in progress, or in doing anything.

There is nothing in Buddhism against progress although it might be questioned whether merely financial or technological progress was adressing the core issues.

Even swatting a fly is a distraction from the possibility of stillness which could offer a momentary nirvana, and glimpse of Nothingness.

A momentary glimpse of nirvana isn't generally considered to be very important. And Emptiness (Sunyata) doesn't mean nothingness, it means seeing the deep interconnectedness of all being, realising emptiness is the equivalent of union with God (not wishing to trigger a theological debate though).

Sitting around doing nothing is considered the highest act, and so the best thing to do in Buddhism is nothing at all.

No - helping others is generally considered to be the highest act - at least in Mahayana Buddhism.

In Myanmar for instance the Buddhist monks go out every day and beg for alms from an increasingly impoverished population dealing with the communist juggernaut that has been in place since the 1960s.

The monks are not self-indulgent parasites as you suggest, but provide educational, spiritual and other services for the community.

I was in Laos about 18 months ago. It has a similar Buddhist tradition to Myanmar, but a far less draconian 'communist' government. The monks are teachers, providing free religious, moral and academic education to the poorer boys and young men. We met one young novice who was hoping to become a lawyer. Others enter the monastery for a three month stint to complete their education. This step is considered important for preparing young men for the responsibilities of marriage and adult life. The full-time monks are of course the providers of this education as well as the spiritual framework of the whole culture.

The monks don't have a prayer against the military, as they don't have rifles.

Being a monk is about devoting yourself to spiritual development rather than fighting wars. There is no reason why men couldn't give up their monkhood to fight if that was the right thing to do. This is no different from dictatorships all over the world where the people don't have the power to overcome their oppressors. It has nothing to do with Buddhism.

And from your previous posting on Buddhism:

It also offers at least the notion of peace, which I think is an illusion, and a poor trade-off, but it obviously has a lot of appeal, like opiates in general.

No this is very real peace. Manifested right here in this life. I can confirm a real and growing inner stillness which (not just during meditation but in the whole of my life) and many others could do the same.

(We offer peace but only in the abstract, and only after death.)

Pfff! And you call our peace 'an illusion'!

Kirby Olson said...

Nicely done rejoinder, Justin! I'll keep my peace for now. Just wanted to say how well done I thought this was!

Kirby

Kirby Olson said...

JH, the work days have gotten shorter thanks to Protestantism. That's why we wanted the clock and the punch-in, punch-out system.

They didn't have the 8-hour day before 1520.

Still, I liked your redolence wrt doing nothing much. I admit it has its virtues, but not if you're expecting other people to pull your weight!

There have been many splits within christianity beginning right away with Paul's insistence that the uncircumcized can be Christian. By the time of the Byzantine splinter, you have major divisions, evne if you overlook the Gnostic and the Arian heresies.

Friday's WSJ has an article by Philip Jenkins (W11) that lists all the schismatic movements since the beginning, and says the breakup of the Episcopalian church is certainly a huge splinter. We've never had an Episcopalian on here, so maybe if I mock them enough someone will come to defend that viewpoint.

The Anglican Church in NA, now numbers 100,000, and they've split over the issue of gay ordination. They're aligned with the rest of the Anglicans worldwide, and far outnumber the two million in the ECUSA. But he closes his article fairly brilliantly by saying repeating what Gamaliel urges in Acts when the apostles are being tried for sedition. Gamaliel says if they're following God;s will, then "nothing can stop them and others should not interfere."

Methodists, Lutherans, and at least a few other schisms from the "one true church" are prospering and appear to be the leaven in the lumpenproletariat that Marx thought he had the prescription for, but didn't. Marxist societies always fall flat.

Buddhist societies are doing a little better.

Islamic societies are pretty terrible, the worst on earth.

Catholic societies are suffering compared to Protestant. Lower income levels, lower literacy rates, lower standards of living, generally.

Many buddhist societies have the added onus of also being Marxist societies, though. Myanmar was a very wealthy place when it was under the British and called Burma.

It's now slowly sinking into permanent famine thanks to the Marxists.

Red China is at the root of that misery snice they supply the ammo to the Myanmarian military.

Kirby Olson said...

Myanmarian? Myanmarianesque?

Ed Baker said...

Burmese. Siam.

Yul Brenner was their king!

and frequently visited Peking for the duck and
the Red Thread District.

Kirby Olson said...

Siam was Thailand right, and Burma was the name of Myanmar under British rule. But I think it's Myanmarian or Myanmarese.

Kyle said...

Kirby, First off, you are welcome for making a post about your first Buddhist piece that brought this deluge to your site. Maybe you should check it out.

My best friend is Lutheran too, and his brain is fried by Rush Limbaugh and Fox News as well. Ok I am joking :-)

Now:

"Buddhists don't seem to believe in progress, or in doing anything. Even swatting a fly is a distraction from the possibility of stillness which could offer a momentary nirvana, and glimpse of Nothingness. Sitting around doing nothing is considered the highest act, and so the best thing to do in Buddhism is nothing at all. Until recently the most frequent do-nothings in Buddhism were the adult men. Now of course women are also offered nunneries (even in theory in Tibet), but they don't seem to believe that they have to make a living. Like the Catholics, they think that others should support them."

Damn I was raised Catholic and then became Buddhist, you must really hate me. Nothingness? No, this is incorrect, and a mistake even some beginner Buddhists make all the time. Emptiness is not nothingness or void-ness.

Doing nothing is not the highest form of anything except doing nothing. This is wrong understanding too, the highest act one can do in Buddhism, if you are so hell bent about making this so black and white is to give selflessly, to help others and find compassion even in the face of intolerance and ignorance.

You keep coming back to this idea that Buddhism is nihilistic, perhaps you should understand what is meant precisely by "the middle way." Is there a God or isn't there a God? Hmmmmmmmm, Maybe you can be helped by goggling Nagarjuna and The Two Truths.

Now, on to this notion of time. What is time? I'd like to hear what your scientific explanation of time is? Is it just a measurement of change or is it some set or fixed entity handed down by God.

Ok enough for now....you may enjoy the conversation we are having over at ProgressiveBuddhism.blogspot ( the place that I wrote the piece on about you in the first place) about being white and being a Buddhist. I know you will have a lot to say on that.

I have to admit, I am pleasantly surprised you are willing to talk with us God-less folk so openly and honestly. You know, we have quite a few Christians in the West that practice Buddhism too. I'm no atheist either (in relative terms), I just try to remember when we talk about creation, what is the ultimate creator of things.

Be Well,
Kyle

jh said...

jacques
i think pieper made a distinction between the apostolic work of the newer orders and the more contemplative work in the monasteries...he points more to the scriptoriums where the countless tomes of european proto-culture were translated and copied as requiring an atmosphere of leisure...while the more involved
"work" of philosophical discourse and biblical commentary and apologetics became the discipline of the dominicans and the franciscans and later the jesuits

it's been awhile since i read the leisure work maybe i should pick that up again

most of the benedictine labor of the mind was fairly introverted and used primarily for the liturgy in the monasteries...bernard of clairvaux is actually a bit anomolous

today benedictines are teachers preachers pastors scholars businessmen and women artists musicians crafters confessors writers...and all monasteries are to some extent self sufficient
all have benefactors
but the work of the monks and nuns is real work often very involved and time consuming almost never very "wealth" oriented...but communally oriented

kirby the work days got shorter thanks to labor unions
a social movement that was supported by the church in the
19th century...things got very confused when the communist agenda was touted...but the church always supported the rights of workers over the demands of the employers and exploiters

i don't know
spain is doing alright
italy is OK
portugal has some momentum
south america struggles
because there is enough money but it doesn't get spread around very well...mexico has problems only because they treated the catholic church so badly the govt did had they been a littel nicer it would have been different
maybe it will be still
we have a school in mexico city and even the rich jews send their kids there

manyana

think of all the food wasted in USA everyday

the protestant countries are doing well because they have incorporated socialism into their network of political management...the elements of socialism they use are basically things the catholic church did for free healthcare and education...they created a vaccuum by kickin the catholics out filled it up with left over marxism in the form of watered down socialism - true or not true?

i think it's time to be honest about what people are really spending their time doing in order to make money enough money to live...what is really important? i mean can we live without plastic factories can we live without more cars can we live withouot 80% of the clothing can we live without plastic food can we live without junk furniture can we live without hollywood can we live without most of the big factories and the big companies...what do we really need to live...very little...we can all live with much less we could all live in less comfort and still be happy...almost everything on every strip of commerce in every city is superfluous...most of what we need could be made or grown by someone very near to where we live...we are submerged in excess

we need to put more entrepreneurs in jail in french jails...force them to read remembrance of times past in french

why so many catholic poets
because education always meant freedom of the mind

catholic liturgical time follows the seasons...it remains cosmic as well as transcendental

time must only be measured by the duration of writing a good poem and praying the rosary
everything else is exploitation of human dignity

Craig said...

Pretty sure Yul Brynner died of cancer and was succeeded as king by Chow Yun-Fat. Interesting that the remake was filmed on Penang in Malaysia. I had a good time there.

The Malays really didn't like the Siamese or the Burmese, still don't, maybe because the Malays are mostly Muslim. The British arrived in Penang during the last year of the American Revolution when Paul Revere decided he no longer needed to export his teapots. The Malays made better teapots for a lot less than what Revere was asking. The Malays invited the British to build Fort Cornwallis because they were impressed by how quickly Siamese sampans sank when the Royal Navy lobbed a few cannonballs through their hulls.

Malaysia's flag looks just like the Stars and Stripes, except they've got the sun and the moon instead of the stars.

Justin said...

Also, for a bit of perspective:

Buddhists don't seem to believe in progress, or in doing anything.

If you've ever been to Japan or Korea you'll notice that they make the US and Western Europe look backward. Also Taiwan and the fastest growing economy in the world - China. All predominantly Buddhist countries.

Jacques Albert said...

jh: I think Pieper objects to the term "intellectual labour" as a utilitarian or proletarian one connoting directed or controlled study rather than free enquiry fostered by intellectual leisure, or in Greek, "skhole" (hence "schola" or "school"), which in turn is the font of the "liberal" (free, because pursued for their own sake, not for ideological or pecuniary gain) arts.

Ed Baker said...

I prefer (being) an
urban hermit
to (being) a
monk-in-a-crowd

and I connect with the 10,000
countless kami (read The Kojiki -Basil Chamberlain's translation

or better yet ? dig a hole 2 x 3 x 4

noh matter what you DO
do it entirely

no matter "yes" of "no"
I'll hit you on the head with my keisaku

so here is my first poem done in this 3 a.m. after a dream of "her":

Dirt-floor hut in
mountain

Emptiness room in
house

What does Blind Girl
see?

One kiss and I will
tell

(not g r e a t poetry.... but what is?)

jh said...

point well taken jacques
albeit
benedict does focus on "work"
"ora et labora" is the maxim
but the insistence on
reflective quiet liesure is certain
and the contrast with utilitarian pragmatix is certain is well
benedictines embarked upon all kinds of efforts
that would have benefit for people
way down the road
for instance today here at st johns
we have microfilm project
preserving manuscripts on film
that will last a very long time
now laoding down to digitized imprints
lasting longer
for scholars
i recall the "skola" focus
in monasteries the schola was a place to learn words and music
and liturgy
now we refer to the choir for chant as
the schola
who needs chant
well
we do

hey ed
great (OK pretty good) late night poem
eros sticking her finger
in your armpit

j

Kirby Olson said...

I like all the flak here, and will take my tme in responding. I am travelling today with a bunch of Finns, and taking them around to museums and stores. Meanwhile, I will think about time a little more.

But I am not opposed to either Catholicism or Buddhism. Just think that if they thought a bit more about the Lutheran way, they'd be better off.

But Lutherans also need to see their shortcomings, and try to measure up!

There are only 60 million of us worldwide, but it does seem our societies work better than yours do.

Perhaps it's the combo of science and faith, I'm not sure why it is.

Socialism did for a while have a Christian component until Marx wiped out all his rivals.

Marxism is the one thing that I think just needs to be wiped out. It's always already monstrous. Bringing it back is like letting smallpox loose again.

I'm not saying that Marxists are bad. Marxism is bad. Marxists are dupes, or lepers, or something. Unfortunately, they are evangelical, and their ook spreads!

G. M. Palmer said...

Note: the Japanese are at least as Shito as they are Buddhist, if not more.

The Mathmos said...

Kirby Olson:

"There are only 60 million of us [Lutherans] worldwide, but it does seem our societies work better than yours do"

"Socialism did for a while have a Christian component until Marx wiped out all his rivals.

Marxism is the one thing that I think just needs to be wiped out. It's always already monstrous."

Wikipedia :

"Lutheranism is the largest religious group in Denmark, the Faroe Islands, Greenland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Germany, and Namibia."

You'll notice that Lutheranism seems to be predominant in Welfare States. What was it you said about socialism? Consistency please.

The Mathmos said...

I'm not disputing your claim that such societies work better : in my opinion, the Nordic States have a better handle on what makes a society works than place like China or America (to take two extreme examples). But I'm willing to consider that it has more to do with social policy than some fabled Lutheran work ethics.

(Most Northern Europeans are "cultural" Christians, if not outright nontheists, if the surveys are anything to go by.)

Ed Baker said...

this was in an issue of 'flashpoint' and "may be" aparappoe to this very intelligent and open-minded discussion..

"you" should see the first 2229 "Manifestos"

I nailed each one to
The Outhouse Door

Ed Baker


Manifesto #2230



thinking is linear you 'take it' from there to here
oh, there are 'pauses" that is a 'given' as is in its
punctuation (one does not "hear" or "see" in mind ';'. or ':', or
',', or '.', or '!', or '?', sees or hears as inflect over a
DO NOT ENTER, sign? very faint "clicking" sounds not like a "real"
standard
upright say an UNDERWOOD not it s timbre

no! That IS not it
at all. not what I MEANT to say/write.
it is these ragged pants w the cuffs rolled down
OLE POSSOM wrote a terr rrific poem... it is Rock Proof....

what you are now reading ain't about Stone Girl this is a legitimate
academic
graduate-student style 1972 dissSirTation! And is
O N L Y in the reading..not the saying nor any possible
alternative
footnote can clear it up... or any sited authority condolesce "it"

words wo rd s wds what IS the matter?
"My Lord?"

w woids? Uncle Miltie wasn't Kate Smith! or Her Nibs/ Georgia Gibbs...

which is/are 'taught' in Shakespeare's OURS POETICA 312 TTh 7:43
am...
(who was actually 17 'other' hack writers in
Bawdy Olde Hinge-land?
and in Baltimore drunken 'raven' pecking on her wind-oh-pain...

then we skip to the Immortals ( the Chinese "Legends" 12 th
Century..,. far enough away to draw
in tourists)

Brelly, Shyn-run, and Creates

who, together, made many copies of that ancient rime of the marinade...
walking and Bashing (Basho -get it?) FRANK in Schtine..
long before Kinko's Copy Center was a 24 hour operation
replicated.... well, Gide cums to mind Our Lady of....

so and this within and without either Bremser OR Micheline

to pin this down... it s an history much less an histor-erect-to-me

lets see a little less "scattered-form (angst) and more of a narrative
form..an humor?
after all we ALL got narratives
and got to "here" one step at a time... so to speak;

and the 'means'
to USE our OWN ED
voice! regarding its regardlessness let down..like hair

oh
"her"
long-black-silky-hair
OH MY!

Ed Baker
6/21/2007
(In a letter to John Martone, Pierre Joris, Jerimy Seligson, and Bob
Arnold

Kirby Olson said...

Part of the issue with Lutheran societies is that freedom of inquiry still stands, while in Marxist countries it is given over to the party to decide who can think what.

There is a kind of economic redistribution afoot in Lutheran countries, but this is voted on, and so the party can change.

No time today to write out more than that.

Kirby Olson said...

Mathmos, I think you are correct to say that most northern Europeans are turning away from being active church-goers. However, they are living off the bank account if you will of the legacy established by their Lutheran forebears. In Finland for instance there is a very strong childcare policy. Mothers can remain at home with their children for the first two years, and continue to remain fully employed at their place of work. That is, they don't have to show up for work for two years, but are still paid a full salary for two years. They can get their jobs back 17 years later if they choose to stay home with their children. And they get monthly stipends from the state to help with nourishing food purchases, and other goodies.

But this was established by very very serious Lutherans, who believed in God, and did this to help their societies.

Moreover, these are not slacker mothers addicted to drugs as we have in our inner cities, where women have babies to get on the dole.

The criminal ethos is very far from the Finnish mentality. People are connected.

Criminals are disconnected.

Lutheranism tends to pull people together and make them feel equal, and not alienated. Marxism alienates people even further. It turns them into zombies of the state.

Buddhism tends to focus too much on the individual's achievement of getting to non-attachment. Non-attachment is bad because people should be deeply attached to one another, and to their families.

The Buddhism that I knew at Naropa for instance was about individual competition to see who could get to Nirvana first. Being a Boddhisattva was considered to be a pain in the butt, something for losers to undertake.

Lutheranism is about the next generation much more than it is about the me-generation.

Marxism tends to put into place a rivalrous striving to destroy another race, gender, or class in order to take their stuff. It's the most sick of all systems.

It basically allows Cain to slay Abel, and says this is the end of history. It's hard to believe it, but it's Satanism as the end of history.

And you get terribly disaffected sociopaths who always arrive on top through that system. Stalin, Ceausescu, Pol Pot -- the list is almost endless. Because it takes a killer to be a true Marxist. You have to remorselessly destroy any and every opponent to your own striving to be on top. It's the worst kind of capitalism straining for a monopoly on production. It also says that the family isn't very important.

I think it's probably even worse than the Mafia, which it resembles in every way except that Mafia members actually care about their own families.

Marxists almost always hate their own families and try to murder them by any means possible out of rivalrous emulation. Kim Jong-Il's dad stabbed his wife right in front of the child to show the child what power is all about.

Marxists just want power. They don't know or care about anything else.

Lutherans would be ashamed to be remotely associated with such a bunch of twisted pikers.

jh said...

yeah
the mafia players are good to their families
because they are good catholics
the sicilian economy works
we'd like to make an offer

j

sally said...

loved jh's first comment

everyday should have time for song for prayer for eating good food with friends for study for reflective thought for manual labor
some conversation about poems
for walks for fishing for playing croquet and for some wine in the evening


that's alot to fit into one day
but i think to aim at hitting
at least a few of those each day
would do more for my
"standard of living"
than any amount of competition

i will overlook his
(presumably tongue-in-cheek)
equation of protestants with atheists
i'm almost catholic anyway
so i won't let it bother me

Ed Baker said...

(This is my dog Tige, He lives in a Shoe, I'm Buster Brown, I live in there too.

Pluck your magic Twanger Froggy, "Boing", Hiya Kids, Hiya Hiya)


not much has changed since 1902! since 1952!
since 1972! since 2002!

check this out

http://didiodatoc.blogspot.com/

Conrad DiDiodato said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Conrad DiDiodato said...

Lutheranism and the Surreal!

Add me to your list of readers, Kirby. Spirit of Breton, Tzara ought to infuse every congregation, particularly catholicism where crosses, stone altars and wine would make a great painting (poem), if anyone could just see it.

And love the Lutheran and Marxist interface: food for thought. May get back to you on that one.

Kyle said...

Dear Kirby - I admire your attempt to understand Buddhism, I really do. I understand you have a foregone agenda to uphold, so I shall humor you for a moment.

Buddhism tends to focus too much on the individual's achievement of getting to non-attachment. Non-attachment is bad because people should be deeply attached to one another, and to their families.

This is not non-attachment, Love is something that comes from beyond our small minds, beyond our poor attempt to understand the world. I would explain non-attachment more if you like.

The Buddhism that I knew at Naropa for instance was about individual competition to see who could get to Nirvana first. Being a Boddhisattva was considered to be a pain in the butt, something for losers to undertake.

The Buddhism you knew was a cult and not Buddhism. That is a twisted shitty thing they had at Naropa. Its kinda like saying, hey Mormons are just like you Lutherans, right? A Boddhisattva is someone who gives themselves completely to helping other people, and not just spiritually.

Marxism tends to put into place a rivalrous striving to destroy another race, gender, or class in order to take their stuff. It's the most sick of all systems.

Buddhism and Marxism have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Do you not remember the gigantic Communist Party in Germany after Word War 1? It took the Nazi's 10 years to liquidate them. Its like saying, well Martin Luther was an anti-semite, so you must hate Jews. I'm a Buddhist and a Capitalist, go figure. :-)

The rest of your comment is mostly anti-Marxist stuff, so I'll leave it here. Still never answered my question about time. :-D

Kirby Olson said...

Kyle, I nearly purchased a book on Buddhism yesterday. What I admire about Buddhists is the sense of humor. It's a great thing to have.

Marxists don't have it (very touchy lot), Muslims don't have it except the Sufi branch (which is based on it), and it does seem to me that the Catholics in the pews have it, but perhaps the Popes and Cardinals don't have it.

You often get books titled Wit and Wisdom of the Presidents, but rarely do you see such a thing devoted to the jokes told by Popes.

Or by Ayatollahs.

Luther was very funny.

Zen is almost entirely humorous, even if it has a serious side, too.

Buddhism and Marxism SHOULD have nothing to do with one another, but it's one of the ironies of our time that Buddhism and Marxism are of serious interest to the young of our country looking for something to believe in since the academics killed Christ.

So they find Buddhism, but then think, but don't we have to think about politics, too? So the profs give them MArxism, and they end up in a mental Myanmar as they slurp up coffee at Starbucks between crossword puzzles.

I remember you asked me to tell you what time is, and time is hard. I can tell you what time it is: 7:46 pm EST, but time is a kind of mental construct.

It does, however, objectively exist.

Just as space objectively exists.

Einstein thinks they shade off into one another. That's a little bit above my pay grade, but I would say that time, even though it is rather hard to put your finger on in any exact way, but that nevertheless the way people construct it is very important in terms of understanding their philosophy.

Lutherans think there are two different worlds. One is timeless, and perfect. The other is in time, and is imperfect.

Marxists think that time will come to an end when they've murdered the last member of the bourgeoisie.

I think that Buddhists believe that the world of time is one of empty striving, and that, like Zeno's arrow, we should stop trying to arrive, and realize that wherever we are is already perfect, and if we realize this, it's time to see the perfection in everyday life.

However, this may be a badly constructed picture of Buddhist time, or timelessness. I think that for Buddhists timelessness and mindfulness are brought together in the realm of NOW, which is the only time they think that really exists.

Or maybe that's just the way the hippies at Naropa understood Buddhism, and it's high time I got a better model of what "real" Buddhists think.

If you can explain that to me, I'd be much obliged.

My best, Kirby

Kyle said...

Kirby - I am somewhat shocked. :-)

Lutherans think there are two different worlds. One is timeless, and perfect. The other is in time, and is imperfect.

I bow to you, you are now an honorary Buddhist. This is the essence of the Buddhist teachings, the two truths. One is absolute, timeless and perfect (God) the other is our imperfect world and our struggle to find peace and happiness within it. Relative truth and absolute truth. Many Buddhists will argue against a God, but I see God as something that is time, that is all the matter and all the creation. When we create something, we only rearrange the pieces, we just forget who really creates, but deep down we know who the real creator is. I think our biggest difference is that perhaps you see God as something separate from us while Buddhists see God, well I use that word very liberally as something that is within us all, something that makes up every nuance in the universe.

Time, well, ok so pleeeeease bare with me, this is a bit wordy. In the Western Buddhist tradition, science is a very important part of understanding, at least for the Buddhists I know it is. Traditional Buddhism, not so much, and let me tell you, traditional Buddhists slam us Westerners for wanting to see science as part of spirituality.

As you know, Albert Einstein theorized that time is relative; its properties are dependent on the density and speed of matter over a given area of space. The faster an object moves, the slower it changes, and the more stationary the object, the faster it changes.

As science now understands it, light from the stars takes a very long time to reach us, so we are literally watching the past tumble forward before us. In fact, it is said, if one were to take a spacecraft off earth, going faster than the speed of light, and then be able to turn around, watching with a 'God-Like' telescope, we could see the previous events of Earth unfold. This has been proven by science since Einstein, time is indeed relative.

Isn’t time really just a measurement of change, just a human conception that helps us manage our daily activities of life by compartmentalizing the hours and days?

Buddhists teachings have talked about a beginning-less beginning, and an endless end. The ancient masters try to point out to us that perhaps, our idea of creation and time are just human inventions, and maybe all that is and will ever be has always been and at the same time never was. It is not a God that creates the objects of the world, but only our minds. To see the world as if one moment ends and another begins is a false impression. Moment after moment does not exist. Only this one present moment exists, ever changing and eternal.

I think because of change, it is inherent in our human intelligence and desire to see impermanent objects as having a beginning and an end; a creation and destruction, form and substance. Maybe many of us assume that the universe, or all that ever existed, must have had a beginning and therefore will have an end. In the same line of thought, perhaps one would bring up a God as the creator, and then the inevitable follow up question will arise, “But who created God?”. This is all silly. If we just closely paid attention, we could see that nothing exists separately from anything else. We would see that all things arise, because of everything else around it, and nothing exists independent of anything else.

In a bit more understandable terms God is timeless, and humans are special beings to be able to witness this timelessness, or God. When I say creation, I mean to see an oak tree or a car. Of course the oak tree exists, but it is us humans that named it and separated it from everything else. In Absolute terms, God as you would say, is it. It is in this relative world that we define the objects within this world, including time. And what we think the world is is only an approximation of reality because only, this oneness, or God can know all the parts.

...

Kyle said...

I hope that wasn't to confusing. I think our thoughts are much like these stars, dwelling on the past, watching them rise and fade, innumerable, unquenchable, so distant from this very moment, one after another. Our minds seem embraced in a mortal dance with creation, splitting the world from one to many. It seems to wrap itself up in the passing moments of the world, labeling and judging each object, giving them permanence and form. This is out human condition, we suffer because we forget absolute truth.

The past only exists as memories in our minds, no? And the future only exists as ideas to us? No one is guaranteed another moment of life, no one. That is what is meant by this idea of the present moment. The past and the future flow into each other like a long stream, and this moment, right now, is it.

Perhaps I'll hit up non-attachment later. You know, I think Christianity and Buddhism really strive for a lot of the same thing, just take different paths to get there.

Kirby Olson said...

That seemed a bit experimental, Kyle, but glad to know that there are two kinds of time in Buddhism. There WERE two kinds of time in Islam, until about the 12th century, when that notion was outlawed, and everything became one. I can't remember who codified that within Islam. It was called the Law of th eTwo Worlds or something. Avicenna?

At any rate, that's been identified as the CENTRAL PROBLEM of Islam.

There's something neat about Buddhism.

It seems to create gentler people. That's a good thing, unless you're dealing with violent people, and can't.

But then there's all these martial arts.

I think the thing is that A-bombs generally trump martial arts.

What happened when Japan went apeshit in WWII and started killing people all over Asia, slaughtering half the population of Nanking?

What was that about?

Is there a philosophy of Just War in Buddhism? Like, limits on how to behave?

Kirby Olson said...

The worst in terms of time is the Communists. All they have is five-year plans until all the entrepreneurs are dead, and then they call it the end of history. Which in a sense, it is, but not in the sense they intended.

Kyle said...

Interesting questions Kirby. The Japanese in WWII were not fueled by Buddhism, but by a twisted version of Shinto, very incorrect Zen and a belief in the Emperor as a God King. As you know, atrocities and wrong understanding of all religions have been the cause for a lot of war, suffering and pain. You see it now with Islam, and we've seen it with Christianity and Hindus too. These fundamentalist Islamic nuts are the quintessential expression of humans giving up their own good judgment in favor of lunacy. There is a great book called Zen at War, you might like it.

Yes, we have the precepts, which are a hell of a lot like the ten commandments. The key is not to live a moral life because you think it is the right thing to do, but we should see WHY it is the right thing to do. Just wars aren't foreign from Buddhists, though many Buddhists proclaim to be pacifists. Sometime the compassionate thing to do is to kill, as cruel as that sounds.

To sit back and watch innocence be slaughtered and turn your head away is very in-compassionate, and we mine as well join in as to look away. If I saw a woman being raped in some alley, your damn right I'm gonna go over and kick the shit out of that predator.

Violence is never the ultimate answer, but sometimes force must be used. There are some people, like many of the Taliban, that just can't be, or refuse to be reasoned with. I was very much in favor of the war in Afghanistan and on terror in general. Iraq, well that was a different matter, but I digress.

In southern Thailand, the army is pursuing sweep and destroy missions against Muslim extremists; and 90% of the Thai army is Buddhist. But, you will find a big difference between Buddhists in the West and traditional Buddhists. Not better or worse, just different. LOL, we've been called the Martin Luther's of Buddhism. I'm just trying to find the temple to nail my papers too. :-P

jh said...

there's a famous photo of pope john XXIII holding his thumbs and forfingers in circles over his eyes for the photo

jh said...

i thught kirby or someone would bite at my inane flippancy

lo it had to be sally who caught me red handed
i guess some penance is due
that was a terrible thing to write
i'm so sorry i
will flagellate myself tonite
and fast and sleep on the floor say 10,000 hail mary's and go to confession
mea culpa mea culpa mea culpa
i ask the forgiveness of all the protestants in the world i bow down in humility in recognition of my reckless mind and promise to do everything in my power to right the horrible injustice of even suggesting that protestants are atheists
what i meant to say was most lutheran surrealists are actually atheists
the whole thing is a theatre of the absurd show for the masses
the ultimate lutheran surrelaist statement is
god does not exist and i hate him
kirby does all this for show i'm convinced
he's leading us to hell

or

maybe i'm just having a bad night
i may recant tomorrow
we'll see

j

sally said...

yeah, i too was surprised
that no one else bit at
jh's remark
perhaps they thought
it was too ridiculous
to even respond to

but i couldn't let it
slip by unnoticed

thanks for the humor :)

i'm also enjoying Kyle's
exposition of buddhism
i'd like to hear about
non-attachment
and how it relates
to love and to family life
non-attachment sounds like
cold isolation to me
but surely that's not really
what buddhists mean by it

i'm also surprised that no one
has pursued jacques's comment about
luther condoning bigamy
was that a generally tolerated practice
in Luther's time?

do Buddhists have polygamy?
or does it require too much attachment
(too many attachments)?

jh said...

kyle
the thing about christianity standing next to buddhism is that the former is pretty bloody
the latter is prettty clean
unless you're a 21st century tibetan

the christian thing is to be one with christ in his dying and death so as to be one with him in the resurrection

i think the goal of buddhism if i am not mistaken is a general evaporation

our admonishment as christians is not "avoid suffering" or even make an effort to transcend it but to see and understand our suffering as linked to christ's crucifixion

Kyle said...

Hey Sally- Sure, I can explain a bit about what non-attachment means to Buddhists.

First, before I talk about non-attachment, it is very important to understand the concept of impermanence. For arguments sake, we will agree that there is absolute truth and relative truth, and for this discussion we are talking about impermanence as it pertains to relative truth. In relative truth, all the objects that we perceive in the world are subject to change. Nothing can escape impermanence, nothing. This is the same for our thoughts too. They rise and fall just like the physical objects of the world.

Our human problem is that we see permanence in objects and thoughts that have no real permanence. Since I used a tree before I'll stick with that example. That tree you see, well that will one day die, fall and rot back into the earth. In fact that tree is constantly changing, growing and moving, subject to the eternal flux and flow of everything. In no two moments will that tree be exactly the same. This is true for all the objects in the world, including our bodies.

By forgetting this impermanence, we set ourselves up for loss and confusion. Say we love that new car we bought, but in time, one day it will perish and we will suffer because of our attachment to it.

These physical attachments are only a part of the problem. Many times our experiences of what we encounter in our everyday world are shaped by our pre-conceived notions; weather based on someone else’s experiences or on some commonly held belief. How many times can you remember saying, “Yea that was much better/worse than I thought it was going to be!”

Personally, it is difficult for me to render up some memory of an event that had met every expectation that I had placed on it before that event even occurred. How we end up feeling about something and how things end up turning out in life are always relative to everything else, the things we can see and the things we can’t. When we take a moment to reflect on this fact, we can easily see how this is true. Yet it is a stark, unforgiving fact we forget time after time.

In the trivial type events of our lives, going to see a movie, seeing a concert or watching a sporting match, our anticipations and expectations become nothing more than a guide to talk about the experience and some measure the event. What we fail to see is that our mind creates these expectations and anticipations for every sort of encounter in our everyday world. Moment after moment we find ourselves pleasantly surprised or inversely frustrated and let down, since this entangled mesh of the mind’s future never really turns out to be so true.

Imagine, we place these kinds of anticipations and expectations on things such as other people’s feelings, emotions and actions. We place labels such as love and hate, create bias and bigotry, view good vs. evil and see them all as right or wrong. Can you see how confusing and turbulent the world can seem and how quickly it can become so unsatisfactory and frustrating? In Buddhism, these terms are known as Karma, Samsara and Dukkha.

....

Kyle said...

The up’s and down’s of life are always going to remain with life, no matter how hard we try to create some state of unchanging perfection. Indeed, the harder we try to stop our mind’s turbulent reactions and thoughts, the more ‘dukkha’ we inevitably encounter. Perhaps, if we can just begin to slow down, take a moment, breathe and remind ourselves to keep these anticipations and expectations in an honest perspective, maybe we can start to find some relief. An open mind expressed into any moment is ready for any eventuality that is encountered.

As for family and love, well love is something that comes from beyond our own minds, it comes from the absolute, because, in a very scientific way, we are all part of everything else. Over time, all that we are will be spread to everything else and visa versa. This is what is meant by being one with everything. It isn't some hocus pocus metaphysical crap, but just the basic truth of existence. The love we feel for our family and friends isn't subject to change, because God is love, no?

If I weren't so tired, I'd probably be able to explain it more clearly. Does that make some sense?

Polygamy? HAHA Only if you count my two divorces.

JH - LOL General evaporation, funny!

Jacques Albert said...

Sally:

Bigamy was certainly NOT generally practised in Luther's age, but Luther had to depend on the protection of various German princes, among whom Philip of Hesse was one (so, one man, one woman, save Luther's "Big Daddy" Philip). You're right to say that Kirby hasn't addressed this prob, nor Luther's unwarranted addition of "sola" (NOT in the Greek or Latin texts of James 2:24) to "fides" (which is in the text). Come to think of it, what happens in the book of Apocalypse to those who add words to the Holy Book?

Justin said...

i'm also enjoying Kyle's
exposition of buddhism
i'd like to hear about
non-attachment
and how it relates
to love and to family life
non-attachment sounds like
cold isolation to me
but surely that's not really
what buddhists mean by it


Non-attachment in Buddhism doesn't mean coldness or rejection it means giving up egotistical or selfish attachment - that is, you do things for others just because you care about their welfare, not because it is a roundabout way of getting something back for yourself. A certain amount of this 'metta' (empathy or compassion) arises naturally out of practice. There are also ways of actively cultivating it. This is real love - genuine, non-clinging, unselfish love.

Justin said...

And non-attachment of course is not in conflict with the responsibilities of a committed relationshup - it just isn't based on selfish desires.

sally said...

thanks justin & kyle

 
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