
I picked up a copy of Paul Tillich's Wartime Radio Broadcasts into Nazi Germany entitled Against the Third Reich (Westminster John Knox Press, 1998).
Tillich is a major Lutheran theologian of the 20th century. He started out as a socialist, but never got down with the National Socialists. He emigrated to NYC during Hitler's rise, and remained here much of his life. He is often contrasted negatively with Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the other great mind of 20th century Lutheran Germany. Bonhoeffer went back to Germany from America and fought a clandestine and losing battle with the Nazis, and was finally hanged for his efforts shortly before the armistice.
Tillich on the other hand, partied down in America. There are rumors of orgies, and at least long affairs (I haven't read his wife's autobiography, but she had a lot to complain about). But Tillich apparently made over 50 broadcasts into Nazi Germany which attempted to rouse anti-Nazi fervor from within the country.
On October 6, 1942 he made an address entitled What Is Worth Defending? At that point Hitler's power had spread from the Balkans to Poland, and he owned much of France and some of Scandinavia. And he was beginning to talk about defending his gains. Tillich argued that the German nation was worth defending, but only in the older sense of its traditional boundaries and freedoms. He argued that the Nazis had taken away all freedoms.
"What, then, is the Germany it would be worthy to defend? Its freedom is certainly the first answer. But this freedom was certainly taken from it when it came under the power of a tyranny. Who is free today in Germany, free from fear, free to speak, free to act? A few at the top: all others are less free than they ever were in German history" (69).
Tillich argues that Germans should participate in the liberation of Germany from the Nazi totalitarians, because then the rubble at the end of the war will not be perhaps as deep.
Reading this made me ask: why am I so against the Democrats, after a lifetime of being on their side? I think it is because they are acting like Nazis.
While Tillich may have never completed abandoned socialism, he did not see the deeper nature of the struggle. Friedrich Hayek said that socialism is invariably a form of Nazism, or that it easily lends itself to Nazism, and that Hitlerism and Stalinism were almost identical in their structure. They are both one-party states, in which individual freedom is one of the first things to vanish.
"...it would be a mistake to believe that the specific German rather than the socialist element produced totalitarianism. It was the prevalance of socialist views and not Prussiansim that Germany had in common with Italy and Russia -- and it was from the masses and not from the classes steeped in the Prussian tradition, and favored by it, that National Socialism arose" (The Road to Serfdom, 62-63).
In socialist countries the second thing to disappear after the freedom to speak is the rule of law as an objective matter. In a true democracy, law is for everyone. In a socialist system, those who are in charge, are also above the law. Once the government has "unlimited powers" (Hayek 119) it "may do what it pleases" (119), and any "arbitrary rule can be made legal" (119).
Hayek cites Locke in arguing that there are two kinds of law. One is that which is universal, and which will "enable the individual to foresee how the coercive apparatus of the state will be used" (119), and the other is a kind of "ad hoc" law, in which government decides what to do 'on its merits'" (Hayek citing Locke 119).
Locke argued that there are four basic God-given rights: life, health, liberty and property. These rights are absolute.
And yet they are increasingly and unceasingly under attack by the Democrats, who are increasingly using a Marxian rather than a Lockean value system.
(The great difference is that Locke wanted a universal system of laws available to all citizens equally, whereas Marx wanted the proletariat to have laws available to them that were not available to the bourgeoisie -- in a similar way there are now race and gender separations coming through in Democratic thinking, in which Puerto Rican female judges (for example) declare that their justice is greater than that of white male justice.)
Empathy for a given group is against the Lockean norm. Whereas this was often abandoned in practice, it was never abandoned in principle. One can see how it was abandoned in the Deep South in a novel like Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird. But this was never the case for the intelligentsia. Atticus Finch fought hard and nearly lost his life for the principle of universal fairness. But the left has decided that all justice is always unfair and unprincipled, so they want to corner it. Now the very notion of fairness is increasingly being abandoned in principle as well as in practice.
But these are not the only rights that are being destroyed in this country.
Life itself is under attack. Babies declared unfit, or unwanted, are being destroyed, and now it's the government of the Democrats who argue that it's ok to kill a baby for any reason whatsoever and for the government to condone and even pay for the murder. And the elderly, too, are under attack. It's now ok to kill someone whose "quality of life" has slipped (the Death Panels will decide this -- each case 'on its own merits' in an Ad hoc manner).
Liberty is under attack. Nancy Pelosi has declared that it's "un-American" to want freedom from the nationalization of healthcare, or to voice opposition to the Democratic party's mandates. And she has said that those who speak out against the Democratic party are Nazis, when in fact she's the Nazi.
Health is under attack, and is no longer a personal prerogative, but something that must answer to the state.
Property is going to be increasingly "redistributed" as the Democratic president stated off the record to Joe the Plumber.
All four of Locke's God-given rights have been rescinded, and are being destroyed under the Democratic regime at present.
Against this we have what's left of the other party (we have only two, and it's foolish to think that any third party can compete in our winner take all system). Freedom of speech has never been under attack by the right, whereas the left has made the campus systems into a virtual Gulag in which only leftist speech and leftist professors may get jobs, publish, or receive tenure. The situation is even worse for students, who are frequently refused the right to gather as Christians, or to publish a newspaper whose thought doesn't coincide with the Democratic regime.
The Republicans want health care to be left as a personal decision, rather than something to be monitored by a gigantic state apparatus on an ad hoc basis by increasingly proliferating committees.
The Republicans want personal property to remain in the hands of those who have earned it. The Democrats want to redistribute property, seizing the wealth of the middle and upper classes, and redistributing it to the poor and to illegal aliens, in order to secure their votes. Voting is one remaining block to total power by the Democrats, but even that is under attack by groups such as Acorn, who are increasingly not only abided but condoned by Democratic party members.
The Republicans are still Lockean in nature. The Democrats are increasingly Marxian.
I was never loyal to one party or the other. I was loyal to Democratic pluralism, and remain loyal to that notion. I simply prefer Locke to Marx, because of the freedoms that Lockean systems enjoy, and because of a well-founded fear of the lack of freedoms that Marxians employ for everyone but the few at the top.
Socialism is slavery. It may present itself as benign. It may argue that your children will be better off protected by the state. It may argue that it's a good trade-off -- your freedoms for your life. But it's still slavery. Any chicken or pig can get a roof over its head and its life may be protected by the farmer. But the farmer doesn't really care in the long run about the chicken.
He's just using it, until such time as he wants to cut its head off.
Marxian thought resembles that of the benign farmer.
But we are human, and we are not chickens. We are individuals, and cannot live a truly human life unless we are allowed to be individuals in terms of our thought, our choice of career and mate, our choice of lifestyle, and what we value.
Let's not let the Democratic state and its institutions decide these things for us, even if they crow that its for our own good. Let's fight the encroaching powers of the totalitarian Democrats, and return to Locke, away from Marx and his minions in the Democratic Party.
164 comments:
Kirby—
Really? The R's push the PATRIOT Act, an illegal war of aggression in Iraq, warrantless domestic wiretaps, while the D's push universal health care, and the D's are acting like totalitarians? The R's threaten the "nuclear option" on the Alito confirmation, and it's the D's who don't get minority rights?
Clue: what characterizes totalitarian regimes is their use of violence, and their efforts to control the dissemination of information.
But these standards, neither the R's nor the D's fit the model, and I think we're to a point in the national discourse where demonization is unhelpful.
Is it time to simply invoke Godwin's law, and move on?
Peace
The 'Death Panels' are a lie, Kirby.
An out-and-out lie, a huge slippery-slope argument taken from the support for end-of-life counseling (on living wills and the like) from a portion of the proposal.
A Republican wanted to make these Mandatory, but that's no longer at play...
Providing optional counseling on end-of-life issues in no way equates to 'death panels.' In fact, there are specific prohibitions against this counseling having anything to do with euthanasia or assisted suicide.
And it's a lie that abortion will be funded by the government - there are clauses specifically stating it won't!
I think Democrats have a difficult time responding to a lot of these accusations because they seem so baseless and unreasonable that the Dems don't really know how to respond to it.
Barney Frank's "what planet are you on?" is just about the appropriate response to the whole Democrats = Nazis, end-of-life counseling = death panels approach.
But Democrats in general are too diplomatic and 'civilized' to engage in that sort of discourse, so they're left with nothing to say but uh...uh...really, that's not the way it is, i pwomise, i weally do.
And equating the 'public option' with a governmental takeover of healthcare is also a fallacy -
It merely puts another competitor into play (think public universities, public post office, public transportation) without destroying private companies -
And there's a huge difference between a public Financer of healthcare and publicly-run Provider of healthcare.
Health Care is a commodity. Health Insurance is not.
AND with all of your socialism = nazism, you still have to take into account your favorite places in the world, where they actually Are socialist (northern europe, for one).
Why people think taking a moderate step to the left on healthcare will turn point us toward Nazi Germany instead toward Canada or Finland is beyond me...
America has one of the worst health-care systems in the industrialized world, and we should be ashamed that such a great country has such a horrible system where the emergency room is the first and last resort of 40+million citizens. What a dumb, expensive way to do things...
"will point us toward Nazi Germany instead of toward..." silly typos!
Kirby:
Excellent post making excellent points in strong, clear, manly prose. Bonhoeffer is a genuine hero, a Lutheran to be sure, but a hero and example for those of all (or no) faiths. I recall, too, that ten percent of Auschwitz victims were Polish Catholics, including some number of priests who volunteered to die so that others might live at little longer.
Keeping track of the Obama administrations's touchy relationship with the military (most soldiers and ex-soldiers well know that the Obama administration will be their "winter of discontent"), I'm informed (by the Wall Street Journal that recently the VA has been redirected to push hard for the use of a 52-page pamphlet called "Your Life, Your Choices" in which "end of life decisions" figure prominently in the "choices" disabled and elderly ex-military personnel are expected to consider. This pamphlet appeared in 1997 during the Clinton administration and was abandoned as an option during the Bush administration. Imagine the effect of this "counseling" on vets whose family lives have been shattered, who are heavily medicated, who've lost limbs or are blind, who are feeble and weak.
I've admittedly some more investigating to do on this score, but I'm probably the only one of us (perhaps other than Wendy) who regularly associates with vets (in the Vets' hospitals, the VFW, the county Vets' office, and socially), and let me say that it's difficult to read of such outlandish stuff about the VA "counseling" services without clutching my throat in disgust.
Tomorrow Emmy and I are are serving at the Repub booth at the Ypsilanti Heritage Festival--we're carrying the crusade against "Obama-care," etc. right into what was once enemy territory. On les aura!
Brett:
Barney Frank is one of the most offensive, loud-mouthed, lying creepos in the House; for his role in the Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac meltdown alone he should be put on trial for his liberty. So where's your source for your assertions about the "lies" you allege about the Obama-care debacle, Brett?
Your remark about our health care system being the worst in the industrialised world is such extraordinary bs that it would take a dozen scoop-loaders to clear it away (just today I read about British Columbia--my one-time home--cancelling 6000 surgeries, including several thousand necessary neurological and vascular operations to save money. That's what "Obama-care" represents--severely rationed services.
So where's your source for your assertions about the "lies" you allege about the Obama-care debacle, Brett?
First Kirby of Jacques would have to make some assertions as to what he is lying about and why it is a debacle. I don't care what goes on in Canada since we are not living in Canada.
Kirby,
generally speaking, the attempts of Hitler to socialize his country is not usually the point of contention. Many Germans will point to many of his domestic and economic policies as quite good for the country, pulling them out of the depression. Critics tend to lambast his invasion of Europe and the subsequent genocide against the Jews.
The death panels are not true Kirby. If we enjoy freedom of speech then Pelosi is within her rights to say what she feels, right? What is your problem with extending affordable health care to the 50 million that do not have it? Between 2000-2008 publically traded insurance companies have experienced a 400% increase in profits. Is it about profits or about providing people with health care? So many people are on Medicare and Medicaid and do not speak ill of it. What do you think this is (medicaid/medicare)? Currently your health insurance adjuster comes between you and health care in many instances, denying and dropping you from your policy. Is this right in the Lockean world? Would God really smile on these practices? I'm really not being ironic either; in your world-view, would these actions be characterized as ethical? I would like some straight forward answers from you as these are honest questions.
PS The event that propelled Hindenburg to appoint Hitler chancellor was Hitler's meeting with German industrialists. At the time, you could not rule Germany without industry having its say, much like the USA now. Hitler promised to crack down on communists and labor leaders, breaking the unions and collective bargaining which was a huge issue to the industrialists of the time, Die Krupps etc... The act of destroying collective bargaining is not exactly a trademark of the socialists. This is found in Shirer's book, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."
Of course, saying that the U.S. has the Worst healthcare in the industrialized world was a Bit of hyperbole -but only a Bit - but we're still not very good, and the whole 'why mess with the best healthcare system in the world!' is a big piece of intellectual deviance considering that we're ranked somewhere 30-50, depending on what sort of scale you use.
Ranked 37 by the WHO. Our Life Expectancy is 50th.
In major cities, we have organizations designed for helping those in third-world countries setting up shop to give care to those whose insurance doesn't cover them.
And it was George Bush who said that the uninsured can always use emergency rooms...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_fact_check_health_poll
Above there's them facts about the lies, and them facts can be oh so inconvenient!
But Jacques, I do know that you are essentially a conspiracy theorist - you have your beliefs, and anything in discord with those beliefs you tie to being a part of the 'conspiracy' that keeps the apriori truths you espouse down.
And however much of a tool Mr. Frank may be, at least he's right to call those who equate a public option for healthcare with nazism "off on another planet," as well they should be labeled.
Of course, we all know that Kirby does so as a troll, so we know He's an earthling. At least for a while.
Sexy post--as Jacques said, excellent points in strong, manly style.
I'll take white male justice any day, if he's on Locke's side.
I want life, liberty, property, and the pursuit. I'm glad you've come to the right way of thinking on this. You're in good company.
Have you heard the story of Thanksgiving? It isn't often told in public schools, and you probably haven't heard it before.
The pilgrims, with all the good intentions in the world, thought that with their clean break from England they could rebuild society from the bottom up. They had found what they thought was a biblical mandate for what we would nowadays call communalism or socialism. For the good of the community, each household would farm its patch, produce its goods, which would then be contributed to a common store/warehouse for the free use of all.
Then came winter, and the generally hard-working, abstemious Puritans found that they had little more than subsistence. They almost starved. Then, the elders decided to take a new approach. Each man could keep what he had managed to produce for himself and sell the excess for a profit which he could then use to purchase other men's excess for the betterment of his own family.
Even the puritans weren't immune to the laziness inherent to socialism.
It wasn't the red Indians teaching Puritans how to farm corn that saved their settlement, but rather the Puritans' discovery of capitalism that allowed them to survive and thrive and eventually trade with the red Indians. Capitalism gave the Puritans the means to produce enough excess to throw a great feast, where the Indians were invited to dine with them in peace.
Not only were they well-fed and comfortable, but most importantly they remained free to worship God as they chose. There were those who saw their biblical communitarian experiment as a hurdle that couldn't be overcome, those who wanted to turn back to the land that had oppressed them. Thank God they didn't.
Prosperity brings generosity, peace, and goodwill. The moment those first settlers dropped the idealized vision they had of a communitarian utopia was the moment they gained their freedom.
Amen, Kirby, Amen.
PS--if one is interested in learning more about the Puritan experience and the communalist experiment one can consult the published diaries of the Puritan elders.
Brett:
The WHO statistics are deeply misleading. If you read the fine print, their rankings include deaths in combat overseas (our soldiers don't have access to the Mayo clinic while getting their asses shot off in Bagdad), and violent assaults which result in the patient being dead upon arrival at the hospital.
I think you'll agree, more of our citizens are killed overseas in violent conflicts than those, say, of France, or Switzerland, or Cuba.
The level of violence in our inner-cities is also vastly higher than that of the rest of the industrialized (and even parts of the un-industrialized) world. Bagdad is safer than Detroit. Of the top 10 most dangerous cities in the industrialized world, 9 of them are in the United States.
Of COURSE if you were to take violent death and death in combat into consideration, our ranking would be much lower.
Furthermore, infant mortality rate in Europe is tabulated only after an infant is two days old (I guess, like Obama, they prefer to see the inhabitants of the neo-natal unit as somewhat less than human), whereas we in the States include every death after the very second of birth in our statistics.
We do have the best medical system in the world. If you don't believe that, I hope you get on the next flight to Cuba when you need a knee replacement from 40 years of hiking with campers.
You know, the whole health care thing really just comes down to resources. Right now, the ER is the primary health care for something like 50 million American's without health insurance.
If this country took time to reform tort laws and made the occupation of becoming a doctor more attractive to young folks, then the services they provide could be reduced tremendously. More qualified doctors, lower the cost, cheaper for medical insurance.
This public option will just increase waiting times and ease of service for those who have insurance, and decrease it for those who don't.
BTW, thought you'd love this article about Lutherans moving towards becoming pro-gay.
http://www.365gay.com/news/lutherans-move-toward-more-open-view-on-gays/
Kyle—
Re: the Lutherans and gays thing.
That's the ELCA, the largest, and most liberal, of the many Lutheran bodies presently active in the USA. What they did amounts to making a tiny step forward, not so much as many of us would have hoped, but evidently too much for Kirby -- his congregation switched synods to the LCMS in anticipation of this some months ago.
We do have the best medical system in the world. If you don't believe that, I hope you get on the next flight to Cuba when you need a knee replacement from 40 years of hiking with campers
It's not a question of belief Emmy, we aren't talking about God.
Kirby are you actually calling Obama a Nazi?
I never said our healthcare system was worse than Cuba's - just that it's not the best in the world, and that there are a lot of countries w/better systems.
And, anyway, my hiking in the mountains with children will keep my lungs strong, my body-weight down, my muscles fit, and I won't be a drain on the system the way all the sit-in-the-desk-and-eat-my-sorrows-away folk will. Our bodies were meant to walk a lot - and so I shall!
We have the best Military in the world, but there are stats and data to back this up.
It just ain't so on the healthcare side!
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/opinion/12sun1.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
http://tinyurl.com/healthcarelutheran
just in case the other link don't work:
http://tinyurl.com/healthcareagain
I've been busy with relatives after dropping this little note into the internet early this afternoon, so forgive my tardy replies.
The number of uninsured in the country varies according to who you're talking with. Something called The Pacific Research Institute was quoted on CNN as saying that only 8% of Americans were uninsured. That would make about 24 million.
The 50 million may be an explosive estimate, but what is it based on? Does it include illegal aliens?
Tom asked me if I think that Obama is a Nazi. I have no idea what Obama is. He came out of nowhere, and I still don't know. I read Jerome Corsi's book Obama Nation, and I read Obama's own tome, Audacity of Hope. I still had no idea.
I sometimes wonder if he isn't a bot hatched out of some computer programming department at the U. of Chicago. He's perfect in many ways.
I don't know his character. There are his friendships with Ayres and his relationship with Reverend Wright. There is his speaking personality (quite good).
My hunch is that he's a product of our schools, many of which no longer lean on Locke but have moved toward continental theory which is in one way or another Marxian. His wife is also another product of those schools.
I don't think they really have thought about where those ideas lead. By one road, they go to Auschwitz. By another, to the Killing Fields. By yet another, to the Gulags.
That was the thrust of my post. The Democrats are leaning on Marx.
The Republicans are leaning on Locke.
As I think Marx is sand, I don't think we should build our house on his work.
I think we should build it on Locke's work. In fact, it was built on Locke's work.
We ought to keep the first amendment, and not trade it in for some crummy notions about who can say what, according to whatever Hegelian-Marxist German jerk.
The Germans are not just a bunch of jerks. Austrian Hayek at least seems fairly sharp. He himself is not arguing that Hitler came out of nowhere, but out of the enormous bureaucracies that the socialists were building.
Once those huge bureaucracies are built, they can easily be turned into death panels, death squads, or what have you.
I'm a Locke-step liberal pluralist.
That's the thrust of the post. None of those to the left or the right of me really seemed to grasp that part of the post. And perhaps it was because I added too many bananas and strawberries to the huge Sundae float I was building.
But underneath, it's LOCKE rather than MARX.
Anybody got any problems with THAT choice?
Brett -- unless you fall.
Also understand that a lot of mountain hiking can be bad for the knees. I didn't have bad knees (and had a pretty good BMI) until my junior year of college when I thought I would start taking the stairs "for my health." Within two months, my knees ached enough that I was forced to use the elevator. And I biked and walked everywhere back then.
But whatevs.
Hitler was an anti-communist for sure, but he was a democratic totalitarian just like Stalin and Mussolini (and nearly FDR) -- this meant that since his power came from the people (in all four cases members of the "party") he had to rely on thuggery and propaganda to hold power (because FDR's power wasn't absolute there was a far bit less of the thuggery part, though the propaganda was in full swing).
A lot of this thuggery and propaganda was accentuated by a restriction of freedom -- again in all four cases and to a smaller degree in the US.
Democratic totalitarians can only keep power through violence and coercion -- that is, by keeping people scared/enthralled enough to keep supporting them.
The "death panel" scare comes from direct experience. It may employ the slippery-slope fallacy -- but for good reason.
When Roe v Wade was decided, it affected first-trimester abortions only. Indeed, it's arguable that the Catholic church would not have viewed these as problematic at points in its history as it didn't view a woman as pregnant (or the fetus as a baby or something like that) until "the quickening" -- which would have been the first flutters of movement. But I digress.
Roe v Wade was supposed to have limited scope -- instead we have (or had) Doctors who had no problem murdering viable, term and near-term babies, as long as they had not yet been "born."
So it's not surprising that people see "end of life counseling" by the government and get a little worried. Similarly, I'm concerned about the bill's language with regards to home visits for families with children.
Though it may not pass debate class, the "camel's nose in the tent" analogy is frequently valid.
Correlation is not causation but it is frequently symptomatic and synergistic.
wrt the Nordic folk not being crazy communists,
I think the answer, as Kirby has stated, lies in Lutheranism. I think, also, it is deeper than that.
If you think of the Nordic myths and stories you have countless tales of people who work impossibly hard for little or no reward save glory.
Even in the end, the Norse tell us, a wolf will come and eat everything -- and so all will be for naught.
And yet they aren't nihilists. Why? At the risk of sounding all pre-holocaust/civil rights, perhaps there's something in the "Nordic Race" that selects against despair and for hard work.
Certainly there would need to be -- people in extreme climates either build a shelter against the snow or freeze to death. Being sad that it's all cold and junk only gets you killed.
Didn't finish my thought. Should be in bed.
Anyway, being of Nordic "stock" for 2000 years or so, you get pretty self-selected against laziness ('cause those folks die instead of breed).
Now we could go further and talk about how in tropical, lush environments full of food where the dangers are not climate-related but animal and human in nature, how being lazy wrt working for food or building shelters is okay but being slow is not, but then people start to get a little uncomfortable. . .
I have some guests here from Finland. They are young people, very political, and rather centrist. They are a relative of my wife's and his girlfriend.
The male told me about the dozens of parties in Finland, and how there is now a large party called TRUE FINLAND, which is a little bit like Le Pen's National Affront.
They just want to kick out the foreigners. There are now many Romanians clogging up Finnish towns begging. No Finn would ever beg. They'd rather die of hunger than beg.
But I don't think the Finns are either Marxian or Lockean. They have their own reference points.
They aren't well known outside of Finland.
Can we really re-organize our country around the intensely Lutheran background of the Nordic states without becoming actually Lutheran in practice?
(I don't mean Stu's Lutheranism, which is now all watered-down with empathy and Marxian communion-wine from the Minnesota steppes), but Lutheran Lutheranism, that is, the stuff they drink there -- Finlandia I think they call it.
Honestly, we don't know why the Lutheran countries of the Nordic climes are so well-off right now and the truth is that they are hurting just like we are. It's just that not much news comes out of there. 10% unemployment in Finland right now, and very very few small employers can afford to take on a single helper. They have to pay way too many taxes.
so you have some giant corporations, and then you have one-man operations like a plumber and his son, or something like that.
Every country has trouble, and you have to watch how people manipulate the statistics. What we think we know we don't really know.
If you spent a life studying the Finns, for instance, would you have a prescription for what ails the inner cities of America?
Would you be able to turn around Detroit?
I just think that Marx sucks, and Locke is a LOT better.
Let's stick with that for now.
Can we all agree on that one thing?
(LS moves forward in Locke-step fashion, ignoring and lambasting all Marxism henceforth, and trying to ferret it out of our prescriptions even if it's just a twinkling little iota of a notion in someone's reMARX?)
Locke functions.
Marx does not.
That's the essence of my disagreement with the Democrats.
Everyone from Sotomayor to Barack Obama just seems to bristle with Marxist concepts. I find that ooky and spooky.
Bush was a Lockean thinker. It's why I dug him.
He understood that the rationale for war was that the four freedoms had not been cottoned to. That's the central criteria of a Lockean thinker, and in my sense, Bush functioned.
Kerry was a commie-lover.
When I took Graduate Reading German as a grad student there were three of us in the class from the Graduate Program in English. We all had German surnames and a tendency to think in German patterns so I think we found it easier to translate German than some of the other students from the hard sciences for whom it really was a foreign language.
The other guy from the English program had been the editor of his college newspaper in West Virginia, where his parents owned a sort of Polish-German bakery. He was the second son in the family and felt slighted that his older brother was going to inherit the bakery, leaving him with the necessity of finding a means to support himself. I wasn't married at the time, that happened when my student loans came due, but I was involved in what was rapidly becoming a committed relationship with a woman who had two half time jobs, one at the university and the other in the community. Strangely enough, the wife of the baker's son from West Virginia had the perfect qualifications to take the other half of my soon to be significant other's two part time jobs. They were only in town for about a year and a half. He wrote a brilliant thesis on the weighty topic of Dagwood Bumstead and was promptly hired as a feature writer by a prominent magazine based in Birmingham, Alabama, where he still works to this day.
The woman from the Graduate Program in English in my Graduate Reading German course was from Minnesota. She did her undergrad in Wyoming and, like my classmate from West Virginia, finished the program in a little over a year and was promptly accepted into law school. Her father was a church architect who didn't speak any German. Her older brother was a pilot for United Airlines and I don't think German was a big issue for him either, but her mother and her grandmother both spoke German fluently. They'd immigrated to the U.S. shortly after WWII. She told me her grandmother was some kind of secretary who served on Heinrich Himmler's staff and so was frequently in attendance at lots of big state social functions. Apparently her grandmother kept a very meticulous diary of her experiences during the war. She told me that someday she hoped to spend some time translating those diaries, but she wasn't in a hurry to pursue that task as she was much more interested in corporate law.
On our last day of class our instructor, a young guy, West German, this was still three years before the wall came down, asked us if we had any questions, but not before stipulating that our questions had to be phrased in correct German. Nobody else had any questions they could phrase in German and the silence was starting to get deafening, so finally I raised my hand and asked, "Wo ist Konigsberg?" He extended his hands to the side, palms up, gave us a big smile and a shrug of the shoulders. Class dismissed.
Kirby:
I've a full day ahead of me, what with bringing me mum home, having me cataracts ogled at at the Vets' Hospital, and manning the Repub booth in Ypsilanti (along with Emmy and Mademoiselle L-----, with the doctorate in music, who was the despair of her far-left academic parents when she converted to her Jewish faith and to right-wing talk radio several yrs ago). But I digress before I've even begun.
Tom says: "I don't care what goes on in Canada since we are not living in Canada."
So this post is not for Tom's jaundiced eyes, not least (digression alert! Faites attention!) because I may occasionally slip (mea culpa) inadvertently into Latin or Greek, and this linguistic tic of mine seems instantly to double Tom's blood pressure; but yet, even if the venerable Greek-hater Cato the Elder could con that effeminate tongue in his 60s (for, as he said, he wasn't sure what language was spoken in Hades), then surely young ol' Tom has abundant time to crack a basic Wheelock Latin grammar for an hour a day for a year or so and thus to give his-say-ulf little cause to lament, as with Vergil in the "Aeneid," "O mihi praeteritos referat si Iuppiter annos!" ("O, if Jupiter would only give me back my past years!"). Then the doughty Man of the Left, Tom, might enter the arena armed with at least one classical language--with a glint in his eye promising that in future he'd "just say yes to Greek," so's he could reel off his six principal verb-parts someday with the best of Hellenists, intoning Plato with learned gravitas, "ou gar peri tou epitukhontos ho logos" ("for our discourse is about no trifling matter"). I've tutored no few keen learners gratis in Latin, Italian, French, and (less frequently) in Greek, so I'd do (the same) for Tom.
On Canadian medicine--who cares? Well, all but Tom, I do. And I HAVE lived in Canada (Vancouver, to be specific, AND with a work permit and social insurance card, which I still have, of course). And Emmy 'n' me are going to travel there again in a month or so (just got back from almost two months there--you recall the story about Emmy 'n' me an' gettin' the swine flu, an' the quack an' th' crooked pharmacist I've yet to haul up before the med an' pharma boards up there, respectively) as a prelim to our resettlement in St John's, Newfoundland next spring. But know that I'll still return me, Emmy, and me mum back here for medical treatment. And I'll let heaven, earth, and LS know when the Obama-run Vets' Hospital here in Ann Arbor requires us damaged vets to receive, ahem, "end of life couseling" in order to get my cataracts examined, blood pressure pills, or my service disability treated (excursus: come to think of it, my profuse apologies to Brett the Hiker, or, in the Inuit tongue, He of the "Salluit" ["skinny people"], for I think Tom was the culprit who accused me of being "on the dole" 'cause I sought treatment for a service-related disbility. Tom is wrong of course, 'cause med-care is part of the deal when one "takes the King's shilling," ut ita dicam" ("so to speak").
Well, as the mighty literary rightist T S Eliot has it, time to put out one's shoes and prepare for life. . . . "the last twist of the knife."
Psst--all but Tom!--since he doesn't care, don't tell him, OK?
Craig:
I liked your story.
Mit den besten Wuenschen bleibe ich stets,
JA
Kirby:
Before going off this morning let me indulge myself in a little "esprit d'escalier" when I agree with you that Locke, especially in his two treatises on civil government, is an important figure in the subsequent growth of representative government and respect for private property, for the latter helps secure one's political independence in a republic (one of my two long seminar papers in my defence for the MA in history was on his treatises--the other was on the Catalinarian conspiracy of 63 BC in Rome), whatever one thinks of Locke as pure philosopher (I happen not to think much of him, as of Hume, on that score).
Yet his great but deceased divine-right monarchist foe (especially treated in Locke's second book), Sir Robert Filmer (1588-1653), also ought to receive his due for his posthumously published masterwork, "Patriarcha" (1680), a development of monarchist political theory based on the analogy of the family and grounded (largely) in the Old Testament, or Jewish Bible (it should have to be memorised by feminists in Hell).
Kirby—
The number of uninsured in the country varies according to who you're talking with. Something called The Pacific Research Institute was quoted on CNN as saying that only 8% of Americans were uninsured. That would make about 24 million.
This is weak bullshit. Of course the number varies—there are participants in this debate who don't give a damn about the truth, and are perfectly happy to muddy the water with lies. And your observation is "Oh, the water's muddy. I guess there is no ground truth."
If you're going to participate in debates like this, you need to be able to make intelligent judgements about the quality of evidence that the various sides present. And indeed, as you well know, participants who produce bogus statistics like this deserve to have their other claims treated with skepticism, too.
Numbers in the range of 45-50M come from the Bush era census bureau, and predate this particular debate. The Congressional Budget Office lists 45M. Honest participants in the debate have numbers close to these.
The 50 million may be an explosive estimate, but what is it based on? Does it include illegal aliens?
A few quotes from the CBO (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9924/Chapter1.4.1.shtml)
"About 45 million people, or about 15 percent of the total U.S. population, will be uninsured at any given point in 2009, by CBO’s most recent estimates. Because the elderly have near-universal coverage from Medicare, many analyses of the uninsured focus on the nonelderly population, about 17 percent of which is expected to lack coverage in 2009. Those estimates for 2009 do not reflect the recent deterioration in economic conditions, which could result in a larger uninsured population."
"In many cases, people’s insurance status varies over the course of a year. For example, CBO’s analysis of survey data showed that between 57 million and 59 million people—or roughly one-fourth of the nonelderly n population—were uninsured at some point during 1998. The average number of people who were uninsured at a give point in 1998 was smaller—between 39 million and 44 million, of which 21 million to 31 million were uninsured for all of that year.19 CBO also found that for those who became uninsured at some point between July 1996 and June 1997, nearly half had spells of uninsurance lasting four months or less and about one in six had spells lasting two years or more."
"According to CBO’s projections, the average number of people who are uninsured at any one time will rise to about 54 million, or about 19 percent of the nonelderly population, by 2019. The number of uninsured individuals is expected to increase because health insurance premiums are likely to rise considerably faster than income, which will make insurance more difficult to afford."
The report goes on to note that being uninsured correlates strongly with income level (it's over 30% for those at 200% or less of the federal poverty level), age (for young adults the rate is 27%, this drops to 14% for those over 45 y.o.). The insurance rate for children is essentially the same as that for adults aged 18-34, no surprise, as they have most of the kids.
Kirby—
(I don't mean Stu's Lutheranism, which is now all watered-down with empathy and Marxian communion-wine from the Minnesota steppes), but Lutheran Lutheranism, that is, the stuff they drink there -- Finlandia I think they call it.
We use ruby port for communion. Your characterization of my Lutheranism as "watered-down" is as accurate as your characterization of the wine we use for communion.
I won't characterize your statements as lying, because that would give you credit for having bothered to inform yourself as to what the truth is, and I see little evidence of that. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to become quite a bit more serious in your relationship with the truth.
I recently came accross your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I dont know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.
Susan
http://3128proxy.com
Kirby:
(Waiting in the hall outside his mum's room for the removal of a lumbar drain). Questions for our expert statistician, stu.
What percentage of those uninsured are deemed able to pay for health insurance but choose not to buy it?
What percentage of those counted as uninsured are illegal aliens and thus have no right whatever to be in this country, let alone to any non-emergency medical services?
What percentage of those counted as uninsured are already receiving care through Medicaid?
For a start.
What percentage of the uninsured
Borden—
Great comment spam: a content-free but vacuous description of the content, and a statement that implies that you'll be a member of our little community. Then a link to a (probably compromised) proxy service.
If you guys want a giggle, follow her link to the profile, and check out her blog. One article, and it's a hoot.
stu:
(still waiting for Mum's procedure to finish) After a quick perusal of Borden's stuff, stu, I see what you mean--it's mostly sub-literate gibberish in desperate need of correction and instruction.
JA
JA—
Questions for our expert statistician, stu.
I'm not statistician, merely a logician, mathematician, and computer scientist.
What percentage of those uninsured are deemed able to pay for health insurance but choose not to buy it?
I didn't see this addressed explicitly in the CBO article, but it is a reasonable question. Looking at the tables, it seems to me that income is the big driver. Unfortunately, the data does not distinguish source of private insurance (specifically, is this a job benefit, or something that is purchased)? Such a breakdown would provide some sort of grist for analysis.
Having been in the situation of purchasing private health insurance for my daughter recently, I can tell you that it's quite expensive—we're paying $1500/year for catastrophic-only coverage for a 23 year old in perfect health. I expect that health insurance is all but unattainable if you have a pre-existing condition like diabetes.
What percentage of those counted as uninsured are illegal aliens and thus have no right whatever to be in this country, let alone to any non-emergency medical services?
Again, I didn't see this addressed in the CBO report. Indeed, estimating the size of the illegal immigrant population is difficult, and statistics vary considerably. Here's a Reuter's article that seems to have relatively sensible numbers, although I wish it said more about their provenance:
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE57G53I20090817
(Note here: Blogger seems to cut down long URLs, but you should be able to select them by click-dragging, even if they're not completely visible.)
It claims 6.8M illegal aliens out of 45.7M uninsured. The later number seems to come from the 2008 census report. The former is explicitly cited as coming from the Pew Hispanic Center, based on Census data. So we're talking 14%.
The relevance of this is that we're still talking 38.9M uninsured citizens. And a big part of the health care problem is that for these people (unlike the uninsured aliens, who try desperately to "stay under the radar") hospital emergency rooms (one of the most expensive sources of health care) are their principle source of medical services.
The question before us isn't whether or not we'll subsidize the health care costs for these people—we already are. It is whether or not we will continue the current system of extremely expensive, ad hoc care, or will we replace it with something that is cheaper, and will produce better results.
What percentage of those counted as uninsured are already receiving care through Medicaid?
That would be 0%. If they have Medicaid, they're already insured, and are counted as such. The CBO report is quite explicit about accounting for public insurance.
Quick correction, if I may. I said 38.9M uninsured citizens, but I just realized that I did not account for uninsured legal aliens. The Reuters article (op. cite.) says that 9.7M of the uninsured are not citizens. So this would include students, green-card holders, etc. Folks who still (under our laws) have a right to various services. But "only" 36M uninsured citizens.
I regret the error.
A further followup. Our spam-ish friend taught me something. You can imbed links in comments! That wasn't true a couple of weeks ago, but we can use this knowledge for good as well:
Reuter's article on healthcare statistics.
Thanks, spammy!
stu:
Thanks for the stats and link--wish I'd more time today--perhaps later,
JA
At the risk of continuing my naive strategy of attempting to inject facts into a Kirby-debate:
US Census Report—Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007 (Warning: PDF).
Congressional Budget Office—Key Issues in Analyzing Major Health Insurance Proposals
One more, too good to resist. "Susan Borden's" blog:
Car Rental Denver
Seeing is believing!
Here's another nice source:
Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, National Health Expenditure Data
This lists a total expenditure of $2.2 Trillion in 2007 for health care in the US, or $7421 per person, or 16.2% of the total US GDT, up from 16.0% the year before.
i'll contend
that all of the freedoms (rights) granted by locke are conditional and open to vast interpretation based on subjective experience
locke's views arise out of a sort of wierd idealization of the british state
he was drunk on the lessening power of the aristocracy
a RIGHT TO LIFE
if we take it from the fetus' point of view that might entail some conditions we will not face honestly
health
if there was such a thing as a right to health the medical profession would see it in terms of charitable acts and not in terms of professional economic advance...until catholic hospitals were more or less forced out of the new business ideals of medicine in the 60s and 70s health care for most people was essentially free in catholic hospitals...people payed if they could and sisters benefitted from local philanthropy but it was basically service to the sick based on gospel ethics
with abortion with capital punishment with euthanasia with war with rampant gun distribution life is more a chance game some make it to home some cash in others get squandered in the sewage of human decision making
RIGHT TO LIBERTY
the only absolute freedom is the freedom to think freely
every act is consequential
every decision to live in a certain way is also the acceptance of limitation
liberty cannot stand alone
liberty without moral and ethical formation is a joke it's a statue in the harbor it's britney spears live
property is the most excruciating trap it straps humans down it may offer safety it may be a cause for forcing people to slave in order to retain a corner of comfort in the world...people who own property that others pay for...now that's freedom...ask the native americans the indians about property...now they have casinos
to hell with locke great britain is locke country locke was great until india shrugged now he simply is the patron of a nation that knows no religious sentiment loves to be organized by powerful leaders hardly produces anyone who thinks for themselves except a few renegade rocknrollers and carries on this international tirade of presumptuous good manners...the people of england are essentially programmed to be passive and nearly asleep...o they're generally sweet but lost in the presuppositions of utilitarian preoccupations...it's no wonder marx set out on a different path he saw the ruthless exploitation of warlords and industrialists all working under the philosophy of john locke as if it was bestowed by god himself...marx is the only meaningful thing to appear in england since shakespear with the exception of alexander pope and gerard manley hopkins speaking of manly...and OK the rolling stones...the beatles were a spectacle the stones now they sang the blues
alexander pope has more to offer the world than locke
tillich tillich tillich man that guy - who has ever tried to hang in there and read his convoluted prose the contortions of meaning and words i've tried to read him and came up thinking this is about as good as the lutherans can do bonhoeffer at least was genuine he was writing for his life he had no luxury to be cerebral...tillich lacked the discipline offered by the magisterium and the critique of catholic principle...he did not write with thomas aquinas looking over his shoulder
i will grant tillich the occasional pithy statement
faith is the state of being ultimately concerned - pt
we will not be free until we give property away
we will not be free without sacrifice
we will not be free as long as women are killing in the womb
the whole argument for "reproductive rights" seems to me to stem from lockean notions
women argue
i am master of my own life
i am free to act as i see fit
"my" health dictates that abortion is a viable choice
and
i own my body i command that ship nobody not church or state can assume power over me...unless i commit a crime...so we just change the law
the rights of locke are not tenable in a society where individual freedom is held as the ideal...without a communal principle at work all social ideals are compromised
we are only free to be slaves
it merely depends upon how one wishes to attain to acceptance and happiness in that
Stu, the 8% quote was certainly a statistic, and it was from something called The Pacific Research Institute, quoted on CNN, of all places, which would be a nice neutral source (Not Fox, where I prefer to get my facts, as they are there always calculated to fly in the face of your facts).
But this number, I now recall, is based on those who CAN'T get insurance from any place. I forget what they were called. Irredemable louts, is how I translated it to myself.
At any rate, Stu, you condemned my congregation, so you started that.
We just want to follow the Bible as we understand it and not be pushed around by some office in Minnesota filled with crypto-Marxists who tell us what we have to think.
The progressives are such bullies. You're either with us or you're against us. There is no pluralism in the matter. If you're not with them, then you're an idiot.
I get tired of the holier than thou arrogance of it.
At any rate, if the president had simply wanted to concoct a program to cobble together protection for the uninsured, that would be fine with me. But I don't see why he wants to make everyone suffer for his colossally arrogant plan that he hasn't even bothered to explain. He just dumps a thousand page document on the public, which even the Congress hasn't read it, and says, pass it or else you're racists.
I get tired of the M.O. of the left. They're too often mindless bullies.
'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.' -Thomas Jefferson-
i agree to limited government
government is either a servant or a warlord
Kirby—
Stu, the 8% quote was certainly a statistic, and it was from something called The Pacific Research Institute, quoted on CNN, of all places, which would be a nice neutral source (Not Fox, where I prefer to get my facts, as they are there always calculated to fly in the face of your facts).
But this number, I now recall, is based on those who CAN'T get insurance from any place. I forget what they were called. Irredemable louts, is how I translated it to myself.
Hmm. I might call it "those with prior conditions." In any event, it seems to me that the 8% "statistic" isn't what you claimed. This leaves the 45M+ estimate for the uninsured as an agreed fact, right?
At any rate, Stu, you condemned my congregation, so you started that.
I did? Where?
What I wrote was this:
What they [ELCA, re: gay issues] did amounts to making a tiny step forward, not so much as many of us would have hoped, but evidently too much for Kirby -- his congregation switched synods to the LCMS in anticipation of this some months ago.
I intended no condemnation, there or elsewhere. There are matters we (you/I, as well as ELCA/LCMS disagree on). Saying so does not imply condemnation, it is an acknowledgement of the reality of separation and its causes. Is my statement in any way at variance with the facts?
The progressives are such bullies. You're either with us or you're against us. There is no pluralism in the matter. If you're not with them, then you're an idiot.
I get tired of the holier than thou arrogance of it.
I don't buy this, not at all. If you want to have a fact based argument, the let's have a fact based argument. If so, we should start with facts, and that's what I'm trying to do. If you think these facts are wrong, say so, and provide alternate citations. But don't whine if I point out that the citations are from biased sources, or that they don't mean what you claimed they mean.
At any rate, if the president had simply wanted to concoct a program to cobble together protection for the uninsured, that would be fine with me. But I don't see why he wants to make everyone suffer for his colossally arrogant plan that he hasn't even bothered to explain. He just dumps a thousand page document on the public, which even the Congress hasn't read it, and says, pass it or else you're racists.
The President did not write this plan. He gave broad outlines to congress, and asked them to write the plan. What we have reflects the efforts of several congressional committees, and is pretty much par for the course.
And there has been time, not only for congress to digest and discuss this legislation, but for them to "take it on the road," and it's still a work in progress. It is not clear, e.g., whether we'll end up with a public option or a co-op. The house favors the former, the senate (evidently) the later.
As it is, your description sounds like the administration's handling of the PATRIOT act—which was passed a mere 6 weeks after 9/11. "Vote for this, or you're with the terrorists."
Please provide a citation to the President accusing those who do not vote for the plan as racists. This is an extraordinary claim, and should be documented or withdrawn.
hey Stew (sic)
why muddy-the-waters
with
facts?
facts are manufactured
to justify actions....as needed and situations demand.
shifting all the money to these bogus wars (Iraq/Afganastan, etc is reason that Medicare and Health Care is "down the drain"
especially when everybody knows we should have "woped out" Libya
as them 9-11 guys were all (but one) from Libya!
Ed—
why muddy-the-waters
with
facts?
I like to think that arguments based on correct premises will produce better results. Call me an idealist.
facts are manufactured
to justify actions....as needed and situations
demand.
Sadly, it is often the case that "facts" are manufactured, but I believe that reality exists, and that facts (without scare quotes) exist, and with some diligence are accessible.
shifting all the money to these bogus wars (Iraq/Afganastan, etc is reason that Medicare and Health Care is "down the drain"
It doesn't help, but is not the cause. The CBO cites the total cost of war funding in FY2009 as $149B. This is less than 7% of what we're spending on health care.
especially when everybody knows we should have "woped out" Libya
as them 9-11 guys were all (but one) from Libya!
If, by Libya, you mean Saudi Arabia. But going to war with Saudi Arabia really wouldn't have made sense—the Saudi's who were involved would have liked to overthrow the existing Saudi government in favor of the Caliphate, an Islamic fundamentalist government under the control of bin Ladin. So we'd have been doing half the job for them.
Stu:
Right, it isn't the "President's plan" because he didn't write it, and he (still!) hasn't read it? Admitted as much yesterday. But we do have audio of him as far back as four years ago vaunting a single-payer (government) system.
I feel safe in asserting that the "plan", insofar as it is being pushed by the White House and being pimped by the President, is the "President's Plan."
Obviously the executive cannot write legislative bills--never has had that honor, but you'd never know it to hear liberals yammering on about Bush's tax cuts, Bush's no child left behind, Bush's military budget, blah blah blah.
Obviously, national government-provided healthcare is what the current President is hoping for. Whether or not he actually put pen to paper and sealed the envelope and sent a 1,000+ page document to congress for rubber-stamping is an immaterial point.
National government-provided healthcare was a cornerstone of his campaign, and he seems to think "affordable" healthcare is a right. It isn't, in my opinion.
It is kinda like little children who get "free" candy and toys from their parents. Generally, it isn't advisable to let children go on thinking these things fall from trees, so when parents give children too many "free" toys or maybe they have too many kids to give "free" toys to and they run out of money, they might have to explain why the funds just aren't there for the "free" goodies.
So the parents either have to make more money to go on paying for the kids toys, especially if every day they wake up and find five more children in the house who heard about the "free" goodies and crossed the creek behind the house to get in on the action, or they have to cut back (ration, if you will) the giving of toys.
It is so obvious. Massive debt, rationed care, and an increasingly burdened middle class. Delightful! Why didn't we get this bill signed into law like yesterday!
Something interesting--
From 1992-2002, the number of people making $25,000 a year or less who DON'T have some kind of health insurance DROPPED 17%.
During the same time period, those making $75,000+ a year, the numbers of the uninsured ROSE
114%.
Healthcare is urgently needed for the RICH!
According to research by the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association, approximately 14 million uninsured adults and children are currently eligible for government coverage, such as Medicaid or the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), but have not bothered to enroll.
I'm one of those 14 million. Jim and I live in blissfully happy poverty. I don't see this as being a bad thing.
The parents of more than five million eligible children have not enrolled them. And nine million nonelderly adults qualify for Medicaid but are not enrolled.
30% of the uninsured people of my age (18-24) CHOOSE (and aren't we pro-choice?) not to purchase health insurance because they have other plans for their money.
Of adults who are uninsured and NOT by choice, 74.7% of them will have another form of private insurance within a year.
Factor in the millions of illegal aliens who are counted as "uninsured," and I think one has effectively diminished that 45 million number that Stu insists everyone agree on.
I've got a new tack for Obama to take--health care for the rich, the young, and the healthy.
Emmy—
Right, it isn't the "President's plan" because he didn't write it, and he (still!) hasn't read it? Admitted as much yesterday. But we do have audio of him as far back as four years ago vaunting a single-payer (government) system.
Not much point reading 1000 page drafts, unless you're part of the legislative process. And I think there's no doubt that if Obama was Czar, we'd be going single-payer. But he's not, and he's playing the old game of politics as "the art of the possible."
I feel safe in asserting that the "plan", insofar as it is being pushed by the White House and being pimped by the President, is the "President's Plan."
"Pimped" is not neutral, appropriate, or even particularly descriptive word. He's pushed some pretty broad outlines: (near) universal coverage, cost containment, etc. That's Mr. Obama's plan. What we're seeing in Congress is their effort to implement it, with legal specificity.
Obviously the executive cannot write legislative bills--never has had that honor, but you'd never know it to hear liberals yammering on about Bush's tax cuts, Bush's no child left behind, Bush's military budget, blah blah blah.
Actually, the executive often provides draft bills, and gets a member of the legislature to sponsor their language. This happened, e.g., in the Clinton administration's attempt to pass universal health care, and also, I believe, with the PATRIOT act.
And yes, I think it is fair to arguing that Congress during the Bush years bore responsibility for the legislation it passed. Certainly, though, the tax cuts, no child left behind, etc., originated with the Bush administration (he was certainly more than eager to take credit for them!). So characterizing them as "Bush's" seems reasonable, if a bit inexact. I have no problem with the right's characterization of the current health proposals as Obama's, as long as it is willing to acknowledge that involves an important bit of shorthand.
Obviously, national government-provided healthcare is what the current President is hoping for. Whether or not he actually put pen to paper and sealed the envelope and sent a 1,000+ page document to congress for rubber-stamping is an immaterial point.
True. But he's not going to get it. Instead, he's going to get something that can get through Congress, and this is going to involve maintaining the role for current private insurers (who, except for the confines of this debate, are about as well-loved as cell-phone companies). Doesn't the fact that he's willing to live with this give the lie to Kirby's arguments about central rule, totalitarianism, etc.?
And doesn't the current process rather give lie to the notion of "rubber stamping?"
National government-provided healthcare was a cornerstone of his campaign, and he seems to think "affordable" healthcare is a right. It isn't, in my opinion.
Opinions can differ. Ours do. No problem there—we have elections to figure out how to handle such matters.
Yeah You are Absolutely correct them 9-11 guys came in from Saudi Arabia
I got my fax wrong... again... they weren't from
Libya them other Nasties were out of Libya
that is why we toppled the Afgan Government AFTER 9-11
we just mistook Afghanistan for Saudi Arabia...
next time I'll google my facts and sight my sources and spell my words korrectly!
then
run them facts up the flag-pole and take pictures of who doesn't SALUTE (properly);
Oh, and Stu,
I don't speak in neutrals. I don't speak in beige and ecru and ivory and grey. In a spirited debate, one expects things to get spirited, does one not? Also, it's a lot more fun than being a passive aggressive whiney-woo.
And quite frankly, your analysis of the "appropriateness" of my choice of verb is, itself, inappropriate and unwelcome. I will also argue that "pimped" is a very descriptive word--the connotations being, of course, that the plan is cheap tawdry pandering slag and it needs to be tarted up so the people will be eager to compromise their first (and foundational) principles to have a go. That's what a pimp does. We've never been a socialist nation at heart, and he's trying to sell us a socialist pox-ridden wench of a health care plan. That descriptive enough for you?
I thought I could approach you on equal terms. Drop the schoolmarm schtick.
Emmy—
Interesting post.
From 1992-2002, the number of people making $25,000 a year or less who DON'T have some kind of health insurance DROPPED 17%.
During the same time period, those making $75,000+ a year, the numbers of the uninsured ROSE
114%.
SCHIP was passed in '97. Maybe that explains the 17% drop. As for the $75+K crowd, I have three thoughts here. (1) $75K in '92 was more money than $75K in '02 -- are we really talking comparable populations? (2) if the change was from 0.5% uninsured to 1.07% uninsured, that doesn't really change much, (3) the interval cited coincides with the dot-com boom, and a lot of high-pay, no-benefits jobs.
Interesting statistics, though. What do you think they mean?
According to research by the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association, approximately 14 million uninsured adults and children are currently eligible for government coverage, such as Medicaid or the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), but have not bothered to enroll.
Interesting. Do you have a link? What are the causes? If they did enroll, how would it affect things?
I'm one of those 14 million. Jim and I live in blissfully happy poverty. I don't see this as being a bad thing.
Are you familar with the notion of adverse selection? In effect, that's what's happening under the status quo.
You are insured, whether you say so or not, and whether you enrolled or not, by existing laws which require hospitals to provide services to all comers. If you have a heart attack, the EMTs aren't going to let you die on the sidewalk, instead, you're going to get taken to the emergency room, treated, surgery will be performed if necessary to preserve life, etc. If this happened, you'd be ruined—but it wouldn't come near to covering your expenses. So you're basically cheating the system, right?
Of adults who are uninsured and NOT by choice, 74.7% of them will have another form of private insurance within a year.
There's a consistency problem here. The CBO report (chapter 1, just above figure 1.1) cites that 21-31M of the 45M uninsured were uninsured for the whole year. So this suggests that any statistic on acquisition of insurance by the uninsured is valid to less than one place. But ignoring that, let's work the numbers, o.k.?
Let me bias my analysis in your favor entirely, but working from CBO numbers. We have an uninsured alien population of 9.7M. Let's assume that they were uninsured for the entire year, and round to 10M, as this is computationally convenient, and favors your position. Moreover, let's assume that this entire population stays uninsured for the entire year (as this assumption, again, tends to maximize the estimate of insurance acquisition among citizens).
So the CBO numbers, adjusted accordingly, would be that somewhere between 11-21M of 36M uninsured citizens were uninsured for the entire year. So this means that as many as 70% of the uninsured citizens obtained insurance (under the most favorable 11M for the whole year scenario), or as little as 42% did (under the 21M scenario). So even if I make a sequence of assumptions biased in favor of the 74.7% statistic, I can't get there.
So something is not right here.
Factor in the millions of illegal aliens who are counted as "uninsured," and I think one has effectively diminished that 45 million number that Stu insists everyone agree on.
That's accounted for: 6.8M per Pew Hispanic Center, and 36M uninsured citizens.
Can we agree to these numbers, too?
Emmy—
I don't speak in neutrals. I don't speak in beige and ecru and ivory and grey. In a spirited debate, one expects things to get spirited, does one not? Also, it's a lot more fun than being a passive aggressive whiney-woo.
And quite frankly, your analysis of the "appropriateness" of my choice of verb is, itself, inappropriate and unwelcome. I will also argue that "pimped" is a very descriptive word--the connotations being, of course, that the plan is cheap tawdry pandering slag and it needs to be tarted up so the people will be eager to compromise their first (and foundational) principles to have a go. That's what a pimp does. We've never been a socialist nation at heart, and he's trying to sell us a socialist pox-ridden wench of a health care plan. That descriptive enough for you?
"Pimped" is that it is typically reserved for the sale of prostitution. If you want to argue that there's an analogy between what is happening in the health care debate and the sale of prostitution, go ahead. That's certainly spirited, although probably not well calculated to convince the undecided. It certainly affects how I evaluate you as a participant in the discussion.
My argument is that you're devaluing the language when you do so, if you feel that's your right, knock yourself out.
As for the description you propose, it is colorful, but seems rather at variance with the facts. Your arguments will doubtless be taken more seriously by people who are swayed by colorful language. I hope that my arguments will be taken more seriously by people who are concerned about the truth.
Stu--I'm running very short on time, I have to run the conservative booth at a neighbouring town's fair, but this is something I'd like to address:
"You are insured, whether you say so or not, and whether you enrolled or not, by existing laws which require hospitals to provide services to all comers. If you have a heart attack, the EMTs aren't going to let you die on the sidewalk, instead, you're going to get taken to the emergency room, treated, surgery will be performed if necessary to preserve life, etc. If this happened, you'd be ruined—but it wouldn't come near to covering your expenses. So you're basically cheating the system, right?"
The difference is between forcing YOU to pay my insurance bill through a government program and forcing the hospital to pick up the tab. I have no right, whatsoever, to the contents of your paycheck. If the legislature wants to pass laws that say that every person must be given surgery in an emergency situation, then that's their issue. I don't believe we've given the federal government the constitutional authority to legislate on such matters, but that's another discussion.
And hospitals don't have to serve all comers at all times for all purposes in the emergency room, do they? A hang-nail that's causing discomfort in my big toe isn't going to get me free emergency room care, is it? If it does, our legislators haven't really thought this one through thoroughly enough.
If a person's life is threatened, they are required to stabilize the patient. Their obligation ends there, as far as I know. Jacques can testify to that, I think, or correct my misunderstanding if I am, in fact, in error, having worked in a hospital setting for years.
Also, dear, I've had just about enough of your condescension. One needn't be boring and bland and so bloody mathematical about the way one presents information, opinion, and facts.
Yes, Obama is pimping socialist healthcare.
The English language will survive with or without my metaphorical language, thankyouverymuch. More later...
JH makes some good points here -- dancing across the social divide -- against abortion -- and yet for British rocknroll, which even in the case of the leader of the Stones, has probably caused more than a few.
Democrats have more or less championed abortion as central to their ideals. Abortion is already to kill the child in the manger. After that, how can you have anything but brutal materialistic viewpoints?
I AM surprised that the Democrats still have any Christians on their side (whatever else I think about Stu, I do think he is a Christian -- and it's a powerful thing to be able to appeal to that side in him. I cannot for the life of me understand how he can belong to a party in which the centerpiece is the right to kill children.)
I think the Democratic symbol is not the Cross. It's something else. Maybe it's not the Swastika itself, but I think it's race and gender POWER above all else, which is something quite more like the Swastika than it is like the Cross.
As for the healthcare bill and its details -- there was a version online about a month ago -- but this version is now being scrambled and pureed, and no one really knows what it now contains. The version a month ago did make it legal for the state to pay for abortions.
If we have any reverence for human life, it ought to begin with babies.
The Republicans aren't on the right side of everything all the time. But with Lincoln they started a campaign for the equality of human life, and I think in abortion we see an issue in which that strong concern continues.
I see the Democrats by contrast as pushing for racial paganism -- flying the colors as meaning -- let's promote the literature of this group, and that group, by race and by gender. Those flags are all over campuses now.
Whereas in many colleges and universities Christians are forbidden to gather, or to discuss their faith, or to publish them in newspapers. Every week FIRE publishes another article about this outrage against the first freedom: that of the ability to speak, and to enroll in whatever faith one finds most compelling.
I don't know the numbers of the uninsured. I don't see how anyone can make a good count since a great number of these are not legal residents. It's hard to quantify those who AREN'T added to any insurance roll.
But I can sense the tendency of the two parties from their viewpoint on babies, and whether or not they can be killed.
One says yes, power makes it necessary to jettison our children, so as to advance up the economic ladder, and so as to better fight the sexual revolution. For this same reason you must also fund all the diseases we create in the sexual revolution, whether they are born in toilets or out in nature, you must pay for us, because that is the flag that we fly.
The other side is somehow more truly under the Cross -- that slaves and that babies are equal even if not in strength, and that there is something human and holy about the ability to think for oneself, and speak freely, deciding for ourselves, rather than letting the state decide for us our fate.
In Protestantism, each individual decides for their conscience. Even if the whole world is against me, I still have my conscience. And if it cannot abide abortion, for example, then even if the state legalizes this that and the other thing, I still don't have to accept that it's God's plan for us.
Whoa. This place has esploded! Can't keep up - only have a few minutes (off to destroy my knees on another fourteener, and w/ a pretty girl no less! )
So good luck to you all, especially Stu, whose views seem similar to mine, except he's smarter, more detail-oriented, and more diligent. (and who, in the words of the Maha-Jacqui [or is it el-Jacqbo], seems to be 'whipping' you, and not even using antiquated rhetorical flourishes to do so!).
Kirby's theory is socialism leads necessarily to evil.
Not so in many countries.
So his theory is wrong.
Just remember that the Nordic countries are not one-party states, Brett.
The colleges and universities are already one-party states amongst the faculty, and children from another persuasion are not entitled to speak or assemble.
This is an indication of what would happen if the Democrats could have their way in other arenas.
Finland has dozens of parties. And right now Finland is tending back toward the center-right, as is France.
But if a one-party state becomes a reality for our government, as it has in most of the avenues of higher education, we're toast.
Just nuancing your argument.
And if the hospitals are already becoming deathcamps for the unborn, what will they become for others too weak to defend themselves against their doctors, and who are counted off as "unwanted"?
Emmy—
The difference is between forcing YOU to pay my insurance bill through a government program and forcing the hospital to pick up the tab. I have no right, whatsoever, to the contents of your paycheck.
Actually, the general notion of income tax argues against this. Certainly you have no personal right to my paycheck, just I have no personal right to yours. But the government taxes and spends, and these two behaviors must be in long-term balance. And we've decided as a society to permit governments which we elect to tax us. The question of the government's role in health care is kind of like the question of the government's role in bridges and roads. Do we believe we are better served by allocating a given expense to us as individuals, or to us collectively as a people?
We make collective decisions to support our military, local police and fire departments, mosquito abatement districts, libraries, etc. And our system of elections is the ultimate check on whether the decisions that are being made reflect our collective will. At the last election, the people spoke. If you look at polls specifically on the question of health care, you'll see substantial support for reform of the current system. Whether or not this is socialism, it is clearly what the people want, and while they are often fickle in such matters, they've made it pretty clear what they don't want too.
I don't believe we've given the federal government the constitutional authority to legislate on such matters, but that's another discussion.
Take this up with SCOTUS. But bills that have made far more dramatic changes to the relationship between the government and the people have been evaluated for constitutionality, and passed there.
And hospitals don't have to serve all comers at all times for all purposes in the emergency room, do they? A hang-nail that's causing discomfort in my big toe isn't going to get me free emergency room care, is it? If it does, our legislators haven't really thought this one through thoroughly enough.
If a person's life is threatened, they are required to stabilize the patient. Their obligation ends there, as far as I know. Jacques can testify to that, I think, or correct my misunderstanding if I am, in fact, in error, having worked in a hospital setting for years.
This is exactly right. Hospitals are required to stabilize a patient, and no more. A hangnail isn't going to get you any attention. A heart attack, or a gun shot wound, will, insurance or no. If stablization requires surgery, then surgery is a legal obligation.
Also, dear, I've had just about enough of your condescension. One needn't be boring and bland and so bloody mathematical about the way one presents information, opinion, and facts.
No condenscension intended. As for being mathematical about how I present, I am a mathematician. The gutter is a fine place to argue, but I prefer it up here, thanks just the same. You see, I like arguments that have a definite beginning, middle, and end. But once you climb down into the gutter, there is no end.
Yes, Obama is pimping socialist healthcare.
I guess that's why you're moving to Canada. They only have virtuous, monogamous, socialized healthcare there.
The English language will survive with or without my metaphorical language, thankyouverymuch.
Actually, it won't. Maybe their will be a language called "English," but it surely won't be what we speak, any more than we speak the language of Chaucer. Most likely, only folks like Jacques will know or care about the language we speak it in another 2000 years. At least we know that there will still be someone who cares.
Kirby—
Democrats have more or less championed abortion as central to their ideals.
No more than Republicans champion the right to foreclose on widows and orphans is central to their ideas. Yes, Democrats are usually pro-choice, but not always, and Republicans are pro-life, but not always. I'd like to set this aside though, because it seems to me that you're caricaturizing the pro-choice position, and I think we're better off with one fight per thread.
I cannot for the life of me understand how he can belong to a party in which the centerpiece is the right to kill children.
It's not the centerpiece, and characterizing the pro-choice position as "the right to kill children" certainly isn't how we look at it, and describing it this way isn't going to change minds.
I think the Democratic symbol is not the Cross.
No, it's not. And it's not the Republican symbol either. That, I think, would be the almighty dollar. If there was a symbol for the Democratic party, it would probably be a ballot. [And no, not a butterfly ballot with holes for Buchanan lined up opposite Al Gore's name...]
Whereas in many colleges and universities Christians are forbidden to gather, or to discuss their faith, or to publish them in newspapers.
It should not be the case in any public college or university that Christians' right to assembly, etc., is different from any other group. Privates are a different matter, but if we exempt specifically religious colleges, then they should be on essentially the same footing as the publics. Does this get screwed up? Of course. But I don't think that such screwups are the norm. I will say this though, they get a lot of publicity.
I don't know the numbers of the uninsured. I don't see how anyone can make a good count since a great number of these are not legal residents.
There are uncertainties in the count of illegal aliens, but they can be accounted for. A perfect count is unattainable. The counts we have seem good enough for this debate, though. Does it really matter if we're off by a couple of million illegals (this would be a 30% error)? Not so much. It is possible to carry out a quantificational argument in the presence of uncertainty.
As for the Republicans and slavery, I am an abolitionist, even down to the present day. But the abolitionist spirit died in the Republican party a long time ago. I just think that the Republicans lost their moral compass in the 60s, and haven't gotten it back yet. You characterize the Republicans as being pro-life, but I surely don't see it that way. Certainly, the half of the Republican party that is based in Evangelical or Catholic Christianity is. But that old Establishment half goes along only to for the Evangelical and Catholic votes. When the time actually comes to pay them back with policy, they do nothing. The R's controlled the legislature and the executive, but made no fundamental move on abortion. Does that not strike you as odd?
If a one-party state becomes a reality for our government, as it has in most of the avenues of higher education, we're toast.
We're not closer to that now than we were eight years ago. We've seen very profound shifts in the government over my lifetime: Eisenhower to Kennedy, Johnson to Nixon, Carter to Reagan, Clinton to GW Bush, and now GW Bush to Obama. But in each case, the power transfer occurred. [Yes, there are and will doubtless continue to be questions about the legitimacy of very close elections: 1960, 2000, 2004. Or 2008 in Minnesota's Senate race. This is a separate issue, which has to do with the difficulty of exact counting of large numbers of people, as well as instabilities in the electoral college.]
Let me emphasize that again -- the power transfer occurred. It seems to me that the American people will recoil from a party that grows too strong, and too proud. As it has before. And this is our check against a one-party system.
So long as we have that check, I'm ok with it.
With your statistical skills, could you please find for higher education across the board -- which is to say all departments -- a breakdown by party?
It might exist somewhere. I'll take a look.
I know that for Humanities departments in the top colleges it's almost a one-party lock.
Let's all see if we can find that kind of statistic. Because I think that as the colleges go, so goes the country, since the colleges get a four-year chance at the minds of people just when they hit adult life, which is a powerful advantage. I think Obama himself is a creature of our higher education system. And I think it's the main reason he was voted in. More power to neglected races... (and down with anything unifying like Christian thought).
Who can find this statistic first? I'm specifically intreested in how many college faculty in all of our higher education establishments (all 6000, including the private colleges) and then a breakdown by party, and by religion.
On your Marx...
"...as the colleges go, so goes the country..."
NOOOO NOOOO NOOOO NO!
it is
"as goes General Motors, so goes the country"
... and we ALL know where GM is/went..
80 % of them traded in "clinkers" ate Detroit products... 90 % of the purchases are foreign autos/and little trucks..
and
as far as the numbers go this next census will "pin the numbers down"
especially since Acorn is doing the data-collection should be absolutely accurate!
With your statistical skills, could you please find for higher education across the board -- which is to say all departments -- a breakdown by party?
This isn't a statistical question -- unless we're going to count noses ourselves. I've done a bit of googling. This article appears to be sane:
Leaning to the Left
They cite an '01 survey which claims "5.3 percent of faculty members were far left, 42.3 percent were liberal, 34.3 percent were middle of the road, 17.7 percent were conservative, and 0.3 percent were far right."
Chicago is definitely to the right of these statistics.
This article also cites a contemporaneous "Forum" article which claimed "72 percent identified as liberal while only 15 percent identified as conservative," and this seems generally consistent with the earlier numbers, modulo some leftward drift under the Bush years, and greater "push" (i.e., forcing the middle of the road folks to chose sides) with the earlier number, although the results certainly sound worse for your side.
They also gave disciplinary breakdowns:
"humanities faculty members were the most likely (81 percent) to be liberal. The liberal percentage was at its highest in English literature (88 percent), followed by performing arts and psychology (both 84 percent), fine arts (83 percent), political science (81 percent)."
"Other fields have more balance. The liberal-conservative split is 61-29 in education, 55-39 in economics, 53-47 in nursing, 51-19 in engineering, and 49-39 in business."
The numbers in econ, engineering(!) and business(!!) seem off. Did they just interview Berkeley?
i've long thought that the abortion thing is so politically screwed up
by their rhetoric i think the feminists are more republican they want the same rights as big business and the pro-gun lobby they want to be free to be out from under constraints in the business of their lives and they want to be able to kill if they feel threatened whereas the prolife agenda seems to me to be closer rhetorically to the language and ideals of the civil rights movement -- and that is exactly the way alan keyes states his thesis -- so i think there should be a trade-off --- the prochoicers should go over to the repubs the dems should take in all the prolife folks -- abortion is big business after all and that doesn't go very well with democrat ideas which are by and large about the actual needs of real people whereas the repubs just seem to want to battle with ideas and make things free for freewheeling money making and laundering if possible--- why are all the loudmouthed pundits republicans??? and the dems just do public tv and radio
i think most repubicans are cynical about abortion they just use it as a political tool to get conservative votes
whereas obama at notre dame was really quite eloquent and evenminded he did not dismiss the passion of the protesters as irrelevant he said to them your ideas are important and it looks very certain that he has moved away from his campaign promises to the reproductive rights crowd...i think he is actually listening to theodore hesburgh
yes mick jagger probably would not win any catholic good behaviour awards it's true...and the beatles actually wrote songs with catholic themes LET IT BE ELEANOR RIGBY
i simply like the blues based music of the stones over the popadelic excursions of the beatles
we're fighting for health fairness
if compassion is not part of the mix it's all an excercise in empty signification
why not have some free hospitals where the staff is paid a set salary and given some govt granted benefits....and within those hospitals could be places of training in basic human care based on charity and compassion and nothing else from there the eager professional minded folks can go on to the professional stars and get their authority and big paychecks if they want
it occurs to me that what obama is not saying is
"this is not about money"
"this discussion should not be about maintaining a system where doctors nurses and technicians and big business insurance and pharmeceuticals can be assured of a healthy income"
that's all less than secondary
this is an argument about investing in the health of people
and to the extent that a government can do that it should --
they do it in northern europe -- in all of europe actually...the wealthy in this country need to be reminded once again that it is in their best interests to finance the good health of the work force
call it philanthropy
amen
jh—
i've long thought that the abortion thing is so politically screwed up
the prolife agenda seems to me to be closer rhetorically to the language and ideals of the civil rights movement
The problem here, as I see it, is that both the pro-life position (as represented by the Catholic Church, and conservative Evangelical Churches) and the pro-choice position (as represented by thoughtful proponents, e.g., planned parenthood) are ultimately based on very similar moral arguments. This would be easy if it were not so.
And it seems to me that this is a much more finely balanced question than slavery. Slavery, after all, pitted property rights against human rights. Today's Republicans rarely choose human rights over property rights. For all that the Republicans did for the slaves, and for all they did positively in the early days of the civil rights movement, it's too clear where they stand now on such questions.
Abortion, tragically, puts human rights against human rights. This makes it possible for either side to adapt the rhetoric of the civil rights movement. I don't expect Mr. Obama to try to expand or contract abortion rights. I do expect him to act in ways that will tend to reduce the abortion rate, e.g., better sex education (including contraception), but also a consistent emphasis on personal responsibility (as we've seen at the NAACP speech), and community support for people who chose to act responsibly (whether this means delaying sexual activity, constraining it to marriage, or taking responsibility for children conceived outside of marriage). Economic opportunity matters too—father's can't take responsibility for their children if there are no jobs to be had.
Where I think the culture wars arguments of the right have some traction is in how community values have changed in the face of a culture which increasing celebrates materialism and sexuality as ultimate ends. The right blames this on Hollywood, not entirely without cause. But I think Madison Avenue is as much or more to blame: it sells an even more insistent vision of youth, sex, and consumption. And Madison Avenue is as Republican a street as you'll find in the nation—even more so than Wall Street.
Part of what infuriates the right about Mr. Obama is that he talks this talk, which they see as somehow characteristically "their talk," conveniently forgetting about the Peace Corp, and similar service oriented initiatives that derive from Democratic administrations, and express Democratic values. And they think he must be saying these things hypocritically. But he's not. He's walked the walk as a community organizer, a service they like to mock.
I don't see how to square the circle on the abortion debate. I don't see how to eliminate the differences in our positions. But I think there are changes we can make in our society that reduce the demand for abortion, and which tend to increase the dignity of human life for all. Putting health care on a more rational basis is such a step.
Stu, those numbers help a lot. English is by far the worst. I thought we were the way the whole higher education thing has trended.
The problem when people all get off to one side is that they start to compete to being more and more kookier and leftist than the last one, and it gets ever weirder.
Geez, there's actually 12% of the people in this profession that aren't communists?
This must be somewhere in the midwest or in the deep south or something.
Aside from Jacques and a couple here on this campus, I have never met anyone who wasn't to the left of the Roosevelts.
Glad JH heard my account of the Stones' bad behavior. But I prefer the blues, too, and the stronger the blues the better. I really loved T. Rex back in the day.
I even liked the comment about General Motors from Ed.
Whatever happened to the Volkswagon. Hitler invented it, or designed a rough sketch, and it was THE vehicle of the 60s. Do they still make cars?
You never hear about them any more.
I assume the unions in Germany wiped them out.
Do you also oppose Medicare and Medicaid? Do you feel Social Security was a bad idea too?
I think your view here is a little too overreaching and simple.
Please note there is no Single Payer plan on the table. The idea is to provide healthcare for those who do not have it. In other words, to add a choice. Too many Republicans think Obama is eliminating the private sector and replacing it with a governmental one.
But Republicans thought the same thing when LBJ passed Medicare. And guess what? The private doctors still stayed in business. All LBJ did was add a choice for Seniors who typically have large costs and much needed care at the end of their lives. That was an amazing piece of legistlation.
This current plan is attempting to expand that for people who cannot afford insurance.
But to take this to a Marxist or Nazi level is really really off the charts.
Now, if you want to make an argument about cost then we can have that argument. Because it will be expensive.
We don't know what the plan is yet. It's being rewritten as we speak, and the thing is they haven't presented a comprehensive bullet-point version of it. They are simply trying to fly under the radar of the American people without having a real conversation about it. They are out in townhalls, but there has been no good information out.
And now we know also that we really can't trust any newspaper aside from perhaps the Wall Street Journal. Every other newspaper is in Obama's pocket.
He said something very weird about how everybody is getting all "wee-wee'd" in Washington about the proposal.
I think he said this to infantilize his opposition.
In the evening paper out of Oneonta theyhad an article in which Obama claims to not being insuring illegals, and to not be funding abortions, and to not be doing a few other things.
Exactly what he is doing is still unclear.
He needs to go on TV and talk about exactly what he is doing, and he shouldn't lie. He's not used to doing that. So far he's only had to speak in huge global phrases and say things like "Change," and everyone has loved him.
But inside the bailout was billions of dollars of pork.
And I don't think he's going to be able to get another Trojan horse inside the Belt.
The whole country smells that something is up with this, and we don't know what it is, and his trust level has slipped below 50%. I think that will continue to slip.
I think Obama is a sneaky guy.
Please note: I don't think that Obama is very aware of his politics, or what he thinks. I don't think he ever questioned what Reverend Wright told him for one day. The first clue he had that he should be concerned is when the population rose against him.
I don't think he has any clue what he's doing.
I don't think he knows that big government can easily go bad.
I think he thinks he's doing the right thing, as the movie title goes.
I just don't think he's a deep thinker, or that he's capable of thinking seriously on any topic at all.
He isn't capable of that.
Most politicians aren't. So they get their ideas from the loudmouths around them -- be they Wright, or Ayres, or Rahm Emmanuel.
And those guys aren't thinking either.
It's almost impossible to think well. I don't really want to have to think about his 1017 page bill. I don't want to have to read it.
Or to have it snuck through the Legislature before we've had at least two years to read it, and to go through it, point by point by point, and talk exactly about what it means for us.
His Cash for Clunkers program was incredibly good in some ways. It ran out of money immediately, got thousands of dealers tied up in red tape which will probably sink a lot of them, and which ended up mostly benefitting the Japanese.
He's new at this game, and he is a big mess as a result. The least we can do is try to get the Boy Wonder to slow down. He's like Icarus, or something.
We don't want to be burned.
This guy could single-handedly destroy America. Any president could. But I think he's going to end up being at least as hated as Bush, if not more so.
Bush at least had a father who could help him.
Obama hasn't got any relatives with any political experience, or deep savvy. He's in way over his head. That much is obvious.
The whole country should be terribly concerned.
Kirby
Actually we do know the plan in its basic form. We also know what it is not. It is not a single payer plan. It has gone through 4 Senate committees and is now in the finance committee. Once it gets out of there it will be up for votes in the House and Senate.
But there is NO single payer plan on the table. In fact, the next best thing - the Public Option - is wavering and Co-ops seem to be closer to a reality. We know this because Republicans are writing the legislation with Democrats. These bills do not get written by one party in secret. Also neither side would dare put out something that had a Single payer plan at this point. If they did it would have to go back into committee and hold off a vote until next year. No one wants this to go into next year.
I think we will get a Public Option. But this is in no way a bad thing. Extending health care benefits to people who cannot afford [or cannot now get insurance] is a big plus.
It really is time to bring costs down and stop insurance companies and the medical profession from profiting on the American people when they are sick.
Anyway, I just really hate the tactics that the right uses to scare Americans. Reagan did the same thing in the 1960's when Medicare was passed. He said we would become a socialist country. Reagan was wrong. We did not become a socialist country. We actually elected him a few years later. And surprise surprise he did not try to reverse Medicare.
But despite him we did become a country that had healthier Seniors who could actually use their savings to live life rather than cling to it. You can thank Democrats for that.
And if this legislation passes I guarantee a lot of the folks in the town halls will use the public option and be darn glad the option exists. And meanwhile the insurance companies and the medical industry will be just fine.
Matt, can you tell me who you are, so I can evaluate the information you are providing?
Do you think that malpractice lawsuits are a big part of the phenomenal price of medical insurance?
One of the things that keeps Finnish medical care affordable is that there is a 25 thousand dollar cap on lawsuits of any kind.
The police shoot your husband by mistake?
You will get twenty five grand after ten years of lawsuits.
They take off your husband's right leg instead of his left arm?
25 grand.
It's just a little glimpse at the Nordic socialist system for Brett and others.
Our system is totally unlike theirs, and our people are totally unlike theirs.
Here, everybody lies. It's the norm, almost.
In Finland, almost nobody talks, but if they do, they back it with their life (which is why they don't talk much).
It's a totally different mental world.
Here, we do have pimps.
Such things do not exist in Finland. There are no Finnish prostitutes. It's not thinkable.
(There are a few Asian women there who serve the international businessmen, but there are no Finnish women who would do that.)
Their whole world is different. When I was there in the last 90s there were only 60 cases of AIDS in the 6 million people.
Comparative percentages, anyone?
We really can't compare our populations?
Here is one of the emails that has been circulating. I checked some of this against the actual document and it checked, but it's hard to say. The language of the bill is almost Orwellian in its opacity.
Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Government will audit books of all employers that self insure.
Pg 30 Sec 123 - There will be a government committee that decides treatments/ benefits.
Pg 29 lines 4-16 - Rationing??
Pg 42 - The Health Choices Commissioner with choose your benefits for you.
Pg 50 - Health care will be provided to all, including illegal immigrants from citizen's taxes.
Pg 58 - Government will have real-time access to individual finances and National ID Healthcard will be
issued.
Pg 59 lines 21-24 - Government will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
Pg 65 section 164 - Subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions and community organizations
(sounds like pay-off to unions and organizations like ACORN)
Pg 72 lines 8-14 - Creation of health care exchange to bring private plans under government control
Pg 84 section 203 - mandates all benefit packages for private plans in the exchange
Pg 85 line 7 - specifies benefit levels for all plans, leading to probability of rationing, especially for seniors
Pg 91 lines 4-7 - mandates linguistic appropriate services, which would include for illegals
Pg 95 lines 8-18 - will use groups such as ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals
Pg 102 lines 12-18 - Medicaid Eligible will be automatically enrolled without any choice
Pg. 124 lines 24-25 - no company can sue government on price fixing; no "judicial review" on government
monopoly
Pg 145 lines 15-17 - employer must enroll new employees into public option plan, no choice to employer or
employee (gradual destruction of private plans)
Pg 149 lines 16-24 - any employer with payroll of 400k and above who does not provide the public option
will pay 8% tax on total payroll
Pg 150 lines 9-13 - employer with payroll between 250k and 400k who doesn't provide the public option
plan will pay 2-6% on total payroll
Pg 167 lines 18-23 - any individual who doesn't have acceptable plan according to the government will be
taxed 2.5% of income (in addition to tax already paid to SS)
Pg 170 lines 1-3 - any alien is exempt from individual taxes
Pg. 195 - officers and employees of government health care will have access to all citizens financial and
personal records
Pg 203 lines 14-15 - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax."
(Therefore the administration can claim they haven't imposed taxes for this.)
Pg. 239 lines 14-24 - physician services will be reduced for Medicaid.
Pg 241 lines 6-8 - no matter the speciality, doctors will be paid the same
Pg 253 lines 10-18 - government will set value of doctor's time, professional judgement, etc
THAT WAS JUST A FEW SNIPPETS FROM A LONGER EMAIL THAT WAS SENT ALONG WITH A LINK TO THE GOVERNMENT DOCUMENT.
Kirby—
Excellent post, with specificity. I believe this is the bill that is referred to:
To provide affordable, quality health care (Warning: 1.7MB PDF).
To work, to work.
Stu--
"The question of the government's role in health care is kind of like the question of the government's role in bridges and roads."
No, it is NOT "kind of like." Tell me where you see in Article 1 Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, or hell, since I'm feeling generous, ANYWHERE else in the Constitution any mention of the words health or medicine.
You WILL find, however, a mention of Congress's authority to legislate as regards the construction and maintenance of postal roads.
Stu, you don't seem to see the danger in allowing Congress to overstep its bounds so consistently and blatantly. Perhaps healthcare is a cause you think is right and just so this doesn't bother you. Perhaps you think that universal coverage ought to be provided regardless of the cost, by any means necessary--but imagine one day if Congress took for itself powers to legislate on an issue you disagreed with profoundly. Say, for example, the eldest son of every household is to be taken away in the night because there have been rumors out of the desert of a Son of the house of David. I am taking the safe route in advocating for the “enumerated powers” of Article 1 Section 8—your way is subjective, that is, our liberty is assured only to the extent to which a politically-charged congress does not one day decide to seize those liberties from us with their legislation. This is dangerous. Oh, yes, it is all well and good to want Congress to seize power to legislate on things you LIKE, but power corrupts and in time you might find they’ve turned on YOU and YOUR principles.
This is why we have the amendment process. It is a difficult, long process, but it is meant to protect us from government abuses and breaches of power. All matters regarding health care of US citizens are the responsibility of the individual states, or the responsibility of each individual herself.
And my God, they haven’t even read the bill! Would you ever sign anything legally binding without reading it first? If you answered yes, you’d be a bloody fool. If I told you you were also signing on behalf of 300 million others, two-thirds of whom want absolutely nothing to be done on the matter, you wouldn’t only be a bloody fool, you’d also be an unbelievably arrogant, reckless, and a traitor to the people who chose you to represent them. What if I told you page 689 said “compassionate euthanasia of all those who would rebel against the state, and entertain counter-revolutionary ideas.” You could sign that and you’d never know.
Furthermore, I have no plan to take part in socialized healthcare here or in Canada.
If you cared to know, I am moving because I love the United States, but I'd love to live in Canada more. Newfoundland is safe, clean, the people are friendly, and at the university one gets treated like a human being rather than a fleshy object with a checkbook.
And Stu, perhaps you haven’t quite grasped the meaning of condescension. I’m not one of your students, and I don’t need lectures on rhetorical and argumentative style. Neither do I need you educating me, someone who’s taken a degree in Honours English and Linguistics, on the changeable nature of language.
You lecture me on linguistics, my husband on translation, Kirby on the disposition of his own congregation! One is inclined to believe that you might be disposed to lecture Jesus on the Trinity. Seemingly there is no topic of conversation or any field of study which has not been touched by your profound mind and endless wisdom!
You like to think you’re a jack-of-all-trades. I think you’re a master of very few. Your "incandescent pride" is blinding, only to be topped, in the end, by your limitless arrogance.
Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Government will audit books of all employers that self insure.
This is Sec 113 (b)(1)(C-D). This requires that the Health Choices Commissioner (cf., page 8, line 8), in coordination with the Secretaries of HHS and Labor, conduct a study of large group insured and self-insured employer markets. The study is required to assess "the financial solvency and capital reserve levels of employers that self-insure by employer size" and "the risk of self-insured employers not being able to pay obligations or otherwise becoming financially insolvent."
In other words, if you want to act as an insurance company (self-insuring), you will need to meet reasonable standards for solvency and ability to pay that are common to insurance companies.
Pg 30 Sec 123 - There will be a government committee that decides treatments/ benefits.
Section 123(a)(1): "IN GENERAL.—There is established a private-public advisory committee which shall be a panel of medical and other experts to be known as the Health Benefits Advisory Committee to recommend covered benefits and essential, enhanced, and premium plans."
This occurs in the context of Subtitle C (pg. 25). Basically, rather than stipulating precisely what is covered (do you really want the legislature debating this??), this establishes a committee to establish standards for various plans.
The law seems to imagine marketing of tiered levels of service, and that the committee exists to set standards for each tier. For example, let's suppose you wanted to sell "Kirby's premium health insurance plan." Your use of the word "premium" requires that you meet the standards established by this "private-public advisory committee" for premium plans. Presumably, this makes it relatively easy for consumers to compare policies.
emmy history shows the policy wonks in washington and everywhere else in this fair land have leaned heavily on ideas which ring of socialism...public education...welfare reform (at least the democratic party versions)...medicaid...most of fdr's reconstruction agenda had the character of socialist leaning putting people to work paying them living wages gauranteeing them health care etc....the agendas of the workers unions leaned heavily on socialist doctrine because the alternative was kissing the asses of the rich and powerful for ever
i'm with you stu on the expectation that obama will work to reduce abortion...that is his position...and if health care reform can help there i say all well and good...i hold that all birth and pre and post natal care should be without expense it shouldn't cost anyone anything to have a baby...most women claim financial reasons for having abortions
what i resist is dropping the ball on this...letting women off the hook...women will have to say "the responsibility is ours" and it is they who must be courageous and let the boys know this is no light matter that can be undone in a hospital with calipers and suction hoses...the moral weight for the whole matter is on the shoulders of women...my sense is they don't have the courage to carry it...they're too pampered now...they've been given too much freedom..and they're ridiculously self righteous about it all
nobody should be getting rich off health care
fdr once said something like --
i belong to no political party i'm a democrat
and stu
i'm with you on the critique of madison avenue
i've said as much on this blog
i resent that street because of the abhorrent desecration of the christmas message
maybe if bush would have taken it to the people when going to war we'd be in a different place in iraq and iran and afghanistan
obama is barely into his first go-around and people like oreilly and hannity are saying he's doomed he's offended the american people ( by letting them speak up on the issues)
by the way
the new ambassador to the VATICAN is a theology professor from our college
miguel diaz ( a cubano )
i'm sure everyone waz on pinz and needlz waiting for that bit of newz
at some level there should be health care for anyone who needs it no questions asked...who the hell do we think we are refusing health care to anyone...if the need is there the care should be there...that's the right thing to do...if it's not then i echo the words of rev wright gdm amrca
j
Pg 29 lines 4-16 - Rationing??
Look back to page 28 -- the context is requirements related to cost sharing, which I believe is a fairly standard deal, e.g., the 80-20 structure common to standard plans, where insurance covers 80% of the costs of a covered charge, and you pay the other 20%.
This is all a bit technical, and I hope others will read along too. Under (2)(A), it appears that each insurance level has to limit out-of-pocket expenses to the individual on an annual basis. (B) sets this level at $5K for an individual, and $10K for a family, and provides for future indexing based on the CPI. (C) indicates a preference for co-pays rather than co-insurance.
This doesn't seem to be about rationing at all, but rather about limiting expense to individuals covered under the "essential plan" (cf. Sec 122, page 26).
Pg 42 - The Health Choices Commissioner with choose your benefits for you.
Almost. This is Sec 142. Duties and Authority of Commissioner.
(a)(1) He has to establish qualified health plan standards, and is given the authority to enforce them through State regulators and the Secretaries of Labor and the Treasury (why Treasury?!).
Basically, this seems to mean that you can't set up "Kirby's health plan," with no benefits, and no premiums, and use it is a vehicle for meeting the mandatory coverage requirement. There are standards that have to be met. I don't see this as preventing you from offering additional coverages, but it does mean that there are common minimums.
Pg 50 - Health care will be provided to all, including illegal immigrants from citizen's taxes.
This appears to refer to Sec 152. Prohibiting Discrimination in Health Care.
Basically, this (short) section requires that all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health) be provided without regard to "personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high-quality health care or related services."
I think the authors of your list have a point here -- this section could be interpreted as providing coverage to illegal aliens. I don't believe that's the intended purpose, which seems to be to prevent discrimination based on race, ethnicity, etc., but the language does seem to be remarkably broad.
However, Section 246 (page 143) seems about as clear as possible: "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."
What I think this means is that illegal aliens will be legally required to have insurance, and will be required to have access to various insurance pools, but that they won't be supported by tax dollars.
So the risk, it seems to me, would be that some court would rule Section 246 unconstitutional while upholding Section 152. This seems pretty unlikely.
Pg 58 - Government will have real-time access to individual finances and National ID Healthcard will be
issued.
This is within Section 163, which introduces Section 1173A into the Social Security Act.
This is about electronic record keeping. I think the objection is to (D), which enables the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual's financial responsibility at the point of service...
It seems to me that this is all about being able to tell you what you'll owe (i.e., financial responsibility), rather than about access to your financial records (i.e., your financial capacity).
I like to know what the bill is going to be before I accept a service. As all of us know, this is the exception rather than the rule w.r.t. health care in the US today.
And yes, the plan does admit the possibility that you'll have to provide a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification code in order to receive this service. I don't see a mandate for a national ID card, but presumably your plan card would have to provide information that makes it possible for this (near) real-time financial system to make the appropriate determination as to what your cost will be.
Pg 59 lines 21-24 - Government will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
This refers to (C): "enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with the
related health care payment and remittance advice;"
"Enable" is quite different from "require." Basically, this means that the health care information system has to be able to deal with standard EFTs. If you want to pay cash, pay cash. If you want to give Uncle Sam your routing number (as you might already to expedite processing of tax refunds), then he'll be able to nick your account (for this charge, at your convenience) directly.
Pg 65 section 164 - Subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions and community organizations
(sounds like pay-off to unions and organizations like ACORN)
This is an interesting section, but I believe that the "target" is the auto industry, not ACORN.
This section deals with the problem of dealing with existing early-retirees. Folks who have defined benefits that include health insurance (including possibly dependent health insurance), but who are too young to qualify for Medicaid.
This reinsurance scheme is credited with $10B (our tax dollars at work).
As I say, this looks like an auto-company bailout provision to me. Who else does 30 and out?!
Pg 72 lines 8-14 - Creation of health care exchange to bring private plans under government control
This section establishes the office of the Health Choices Administrator. The language is pretty generic here, but gets fleshed out elsewhere, e.g., in Section 142 on page 42, already discussed.
This much seems to be true: the Administrator is responsible for setting minimal standards for various levels of coverage, and in making sure that anyone who offers such coverage is capable of meeting the obligations that they've undertaken. This seems pretty much stock-in-trade for an insurance commissioner.
The operational difference here is that individuals and corporations will have obligation to obtain certain levels of coverage (rather like Auto insurance).
Kirby—
I don't think that list is doing so well, do you? How many of these should I do before you're willing to grant that the letter willfully misrepresents the content of the bill?
it would seem that you are more or less obligated to take this comment stream beyond 100
the new dialectic cyberdialectix -- never prove a point
j
Kirby (I just arrived from a Repub function and read through the posts--a quick post and I'm off to bed):
I understand that stu is a fellow Lutheran, just as jh is for Emmy and me a fellow Catholic, so it's difficult to come down too hard on one of one's similar confession, though there are fundamental and salient differences in one's social, political, and ethical outlooks. And too, both stu and jh are distinct assets to this blogsite, though (not due to religious affinity) I find jh to be the more cosmopolitan and much richer in imagination and verve.
I was tempted to say to stu after reading his risible finger-wagging chastisement of Emmy for using the (apparently) outre participle "pimping": "What's the diff between the rhetorical violence of using "pimping" and that of first characterising an opponent's view on health care as "weak bullshit," Stuey Boy? You're claims to keep to "facts," delivered on high (as from the Sibylline oracle) these days are wearing pretty thinly, despite your proclamations of your own (priggishly self-delusional invincibility and rhetorical impeccability) cardboard rectitude.
President Obama, as I've said before, is a dangerous combination (for this country) of arrogance and incompetence imbued with Marxist ressentiment. The pamphlet from the VA I was seeking about "End-of-Life Decesions," (obtained by me at my Vets' Hospital today), issued in 1997 during the Clinton administration and suppressed by the Bush administration, is outrageous in its pandering (know the origin of this one, stu?--but a quick google check solves all!) to what amounts to a soft-core appeal to wounded, disabled, and feeble vets to rid the world of their noisome presence. It's disgusting and perverse! But Obama is, in spite of stu's leftist bleatings, a prince of the "culture of death"--abortion, late term abortion, infantacide, and euthanasia.
Kirby
Do you think that malpractice lawsuits are a big part of the phenomenal price of medical insurance?
Yes. But that alone will not fix the problem.
Also I have to say I have no idea why you are talking about Finland's system.
Emmy—
No, it is NOT "kind of like." Tell me where you see in Article 1 Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, or hell, since I'm feeling generous, ANYWHERE else in the Constitution any mention of the words health or medicine.
Undoubtedly the justification rests on the commerce clause, the interpretation of which is quite broad, and has been for a long, long time. I was quite serious about my SCOTUS remark. Medicare and medicaid are settled law, and constitutionality issues were raised (and dealt with) regarding them. The present plan does not differ in its constitutional implications.
You won't find anything in the constitution either about regulating drugs or providing air traffic control. The constitution is mute on the internet, and the tax implications thereof. I get that you're a strict constructionalist, but the reality of the modern world is that both parties have routinely presented and passed legislation that would fail your strict constructionalist test. You act as if there is some sort of unique power grab here. I don't see it. For better or worse, this is consistent with US practice since 1860.
And the majority of the justices on the current SCOTUS have been appointed by Republican presidents. And I think you have maybe one vote (Scalia) who'd go along with a construction as narrow as yours. Maybe.
And my God, they haven’t even read the bill! Would you ever sign anything legally binding without reading it first?
I assume that the representatives and senators, and their staffs, who are on the committees responsible for this legislation are reading the bill. I expect that all of the representatives and senators and their staffs will be given adequate time to read and understand it before they vote on it. I expect that some (but sadly, not all) will.
Yes, this is 1000 pages, but it looks like only about 140 words/page. This is comparable with the amount of text in a typical novel. OK, maybe "Emma." :-).
But it can be read, digested, and argued over. No one is suggesting that it not be.
Conservotarian
There is nothing in the bill that talks about a national takeover of health care.
If you read Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution it says Congress has the power to “lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises” and to “provide for...the general welfare of the United States.”
Rather than listing specific things, [such as health care], which Congress is allowed to spend money on, the framers chose instead to give Congress a broad mandate to spend money in ways that promote the “general welfare.”
Link to a court case.
Many Conservatives said Income Tax, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid were Unconstitutional. They were wrong. The Constitution says nothing about federal education spending or Veteran's benefits either. But we have them.
Congress has the authority to pass laws on such matters.
jh—
by the way
the new ambassador to the VATICAN is a theology professor from our college
miguel diaz ( a cubano )
i'm sure everyone waz on pinz and needlz waiting for that bit of newz
Excellent! Here's a nice article:
Theology professor Miguel DÃaz sworn in...
He sounds like an impressive man. Best wishes to him on a difficult, but important, assignment.
Matt--
This is the way I explain my view: The best way to avoid tyranny is to set limits and the ideal secular way to set limits is via the democratic process. Agreed? Agreed.
The founders knew this.
They set limits. The federal government is constricted by the powers we have vested in them. This is a matter of democratic sovereignty and bears directly on our rights as a free people.
The "general welfare" clause, to me, is simply a matter of the establishment of federalism. Why do we have a federalist system but to protect the general welfare of the population of the United States? We learned our lesson with the Articles of Confederation. The idea that what is good for our nation as a whole was also by extension was good for the states and citizens individually was a unique concept at the time.
General welfare, at the time of the Consitution, pertained to the building of postal roads for the benefit of all citizens, the keeping of a standing army, the right to levy taxes (not income tax--that was a far later innovation), and the right to engage in treaties with foreign nations.
It would not be practical for each state to have its own standing army, each under its own commander in chief. Neither would it be practical or in the interest of the General Welfare of the United States for North Carolina to make private treaty with France.
This is the context in which "general welfare" was conceived. For what purpose do we have a federal government but for those purposes which are impossible or impractical for individual states or individual persons to take care of on their own?
It is not impossible for states to adopt socialist healthcare. In fact, it would be entirely constitutional for a state, under the guidance of the voting populace within their borders, to go completely communist. Constitutionally, the federal government could have nothing to say about it.
If, say, Oregon chose to confiscate and redistribute 95% of its citizens' wealth and income, the federal government could have nothing to say about it.
It is not out of the question for individual states to try to adopt socialized healthcare. Oregon is one example. Massachusetts. My own current abode, Michigan. In each of these states, the public option is a disaster. Even so, it is these individual states' rights to determine that for themselves.
In giving states and individuals the opportunity to decide their fate on a more local level, their government becomes more responsible to them and they do not find themselves dependent on some bureaucrat in D.C. to decide whether or not they get their hip replacement or cancer treatment.
Finally, "general welfare" does not mean welfare for all. Never did the founding fathers think for a moment that we would foster a society in which the federal government paid for everything a human being might need from cradle to the grave--from food to subsidized housing to medicine and doctors to education to counseling to abortions to monthly checks to cash for clunkers.
Stu--
Any legislation which happens outside of the parameters set in the Constitution is by definition Unconstitutional.
Matt:
The building of postal roads clause in the Constitution ensured that lines of communication in the event of invasion of US territory would remain open. It no longer serves this purpose, and so privatising can be considered long overdue for this wasteful and inefficient bureaucracy (a six billion dollar loss last yr). The Department of Education should have been abolished long ago--ditto for all state departments of ed as well. Other departments should also be studied for possible large-scale reductions in size and scope. On a smaller scale, all taxpayer subsidies to NPR and PBS should end, for they've long abused their claims on the public purse.
It's well known that statists' and socialists' appeals to the "commerce clause" and the "general welfare" reference in the Constitution inevitably are trotted out as justifications for the next unwarranted federal power grab, but this interpretation more or less obviates the need for enumerated powers to begin with.
In spite of stu's lamentable snow-job on "Obamacare" (though he defends the ignorance of the President and Congressional leaders about the bill's specifics) the precipitate haste with which Obama and his minions are proceeding (as with the bailout follies) have aroused public opinion--some in favour of more scrutiny of the legislation's provisions, many against both the precept and example of what amounts to a government takeover of the health industry. Despite desperate and unconvincing attempts to interpret specific sections of the proposed legistation in the President's favour, many cannot forget that the current administration's expectations the legislation would pass without demur on Obama's nod is an affront to sound legislative practise and to citizens at large, which is why Obama's approval ratings have and will tank further, though it seems unlikely they'll reach the levels of the current voter distrust and contempt of Congress.
Kirby:
There is a very good article on the proposed health care reform by Frank S Rosenbloom MD in "The American Thinker" here:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/obamacarepoint_and_counterpoin.html
The comment by Wesley Clark MD is also worth reading, including this list:
"Medicare - 2735% increase in costs, nearly bankrupt.
Medicaid - Limited services, limited access, increasing costs,
VA Healthcare - long delays, limited services, poor safety record.
Indian Healthcare - an abomination.
Amtrak - billions in subsidies so Joe Biden can get a ride home.
US Postal Service - $7 billion deficit, cutting services, long lines.
Fannie Mae - financial disaster
Freddie Mac - financial disaster
Stimulus Bill - it didn’t
SEC - Madoff fiasco"
For Dr Clark's full commentary:
http://comments.americanthinker.com/read/42323/400163.html
just take them lobbyist's yearly $$$$ spent buying" votes to protect their profits
and I betcha that
that money ($14.3 billion a year ,,, CNN's figure)
would buy a lot of health-care !
Ed:
Yes, and among those lobby groups, you mean, of course, to include labour unions, teachers' unions, colleges and universities, environmental groups, urban city gov'ts like the infamously corrupt Chicago and Detroit, etc., badly-run taxpayer-backed corporate cash cows for rich Demos and their political tools (Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, John Kerry, Barack Obama, etc.) like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, pro-abortion groups, AARP, thuggish and corrupt pressure groups that specialise in voter fraud like ACORN, etc. Right, Ed?
YEAH J A theyr are all corrupt and corrupted by The Money!
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!
i think the republican argument in this whole thing is one of revenge they have all become and i lump every republican writing on this blog in that group they have all become bitter because of the loss of power and i empathize somewhat i mean dems were miserable for 8 yrs
well actually ever since reagan with the utter mismanagment of govt so these irrational arguments grow up and even with the stating of the facts nobody seems to get it
the rhetoric presumes that health care reform is inessential perhaps we should just focus on the war against terrorists and leave everyone else alone
people are making judgements that go as deep as fox news blather
if brain surgery is needed
anyone should be able to get it
if heart surgery is needed anyone should have access...there needs be no economic class presumption in this matter
no questions need be asked about who is eligible if a person needs health attention no matter who they are or where they are from or whose flag they salute they should have health care
people speak as if the dems are looking at the american experiment with rosy glasses and ignoring the hardwork principle that is fostered in protestant atmospheres
arbeit macht frei
that sort of thing
while ignoring all the time that there are ridiculous injustices we buy into this neonobility mindset that the rich are preferred customers in everything from housing to health care and they get to dictate what everyone else can or cannot have
can someone tell me when health issues became news worthy
i mean i watch the nbc news and ineveitably there's some inane health report that is somehow deemed NEWS and i ask why is this news?? what the phuq are people thinking why are we being bamboozled like this force fed this agenda of health "news" which in my mind is a way of sustaining the dependency that the medical industry has built up ask your doctor about cialis ask your doctor about birth control ask your doctor about this and that ask your doctor...america has become like a nervous daycare center and the healthcare industry is there watching over the mayhem saying we'll get you this we'll get you that please pay and ask your doctor
i've been to hospitals a few times in recent months and i am astounded with what looks like personell overkill there are "women" prancing dancing serious minded women all over the place in control o yeah doing their business holding their jobs being health care people and i have observed that for the most part they are doing nothing they are nervously attending to a daycare center and the people are idiots but they go along with everything and the women are in control the doctors just do the high risk stuff and leave the rest to the underlings who are by and large women
so i think the problem is about women
it is not about health care it is about the presumption of having so many women prancing and dancing around the employment world thinking that having a job in health care is somehow important more important that raising children at home..the women have bought into the general ignornce of the country and they are right in there with it all being ignorant and calling it health care employment ask your doctor blah blah blah
people are pretty healthy by and large
the whole health care world should step out of the public forum they should retreat no more advertising no more smiling proposals of care no more commercials
get the women out of the hospitals except as nurses send them home to "homes" of which there are precious few anymore there are millions of houses sitting empty all day long which are not homes but real estate commodities and little else sold as HOMES and a perpetual financing scheme is put in place and nobody owns anything they work the banks and the banks screw them with a smile
the democrats arent' barking up a tree they have identified one thing that is cruelly unjust in the system of govt providing for its people...they are simply saying nobody should have to worry about health care nobody should lose their retirement due to health care nobody should have to wait on anyone for health care
doctors and nurses should be forced into making house calls
they are servants and we've made them into the hyped-up quasiprofessional princes and princesses in scrubs
they are janitors and that's how they should see themsleves cleaning up the detritus of human nature the plumbing gone wrong the wiring gone haywire
they are servants and nothing else
and no more worthy of high pay than teachers in fact the word doctor implies teaching they should teach us how to live healthy lives and not expect huge compensation for that they are servants and that is all
we do not need any sort of health insurance it is superfluous to the argument down with health insurance up with basic provisions for everyone health care that is there without worry if we can finance war machinery then we should be able to finance health care i mean those bombs just wreck shit and we pay for them it's a form of socialism we pay for the military to wreck shit
and then they tell us we are somehow obliged to be patriotic about it all
i'm not buying it
health care should be all but invisible until a person needs it
that it now occupies a huge place on the landscape suggests we are ignorant of it's place there is no humility in it
health care and health providers are not about money and business it is all about people who need health care and nobody should get the rights to advertise that
capitalism is a curse in this matter
obama has hit a nerve and he knows it the country is squirming we've been made this helpless land of needy health care recipients we're getting phuqqed by pharmeceutical companies and insurance companies and we seem to like that because well who wouldn't
bring back the nuns
bring back the humble servants of hospital care bring back the immediate availability of health care and get all the other shit out of here
nobody should have to drive to get health care every neighborhood every small town every rural region should have health care down with the centralized big operations
there's enough health care knowledge in this land so that everyone can tap into it whereever they are
and i also believe
more people should be allowed to die
enough of the heroics
and get the goddam lawyers out of here too
there i fell much better
thank you doctor
for the cannabinol
2 a day
for the next week
OK i can live with that
no i won't drink any alcohol
j
Kirby:
Oh yes, sorry about last night's typos--my day started at 3 AM and it doesn't take but one or two drinks to put me down for the count--until 3 or 4 AM next morning. The Ypsilanti festival Repub booth drew quite a few friendly visitors--a number of whom had bought Obama's vague pie-in-the-sky campaign promises and now are suffering emptor's remorse--as well a solid contingent of African-American volunteers.
As I said earlier, I obtained a pamphlet from my VA hospital called "End-of-Life Decisions," an odious piece of "death-wish" propaganda done by Channing Bete, Inc. out of (surprise, surprise) Massachusetts, in which there appear a number of "solutions" to debilitating conditions for veterans--unable to afford the kind of "end-of-life" private care presently lavished upon Sen Kennedy (whose disgraceful personal and political careers of course didn't include risking his life in combat, as did his elder brother Jack and we vets). Published for the VA during the Clinton admin (1997) and suppressed during the Bush admin, it is relentlessly being pushed by the Obama gang through the VA. Every time I go for appointments at the VA I encounter and talk with other vets over a smoke, and often when I meet more debilitated, elderly, and terminal patients I'll remember what the Obama admin has in store for them, for those who carried out the first duty of our constitutional mandate, which is to defend our country and its citizens (something alien to pampered pretty-boys like President Obama who plays the PIMP (that's "leno, lenonis" [Lat], stu; the term actually is used by my 17th c. translation theorist, Bishop Pierre-Daniel Huet (1630-1721) on p 81 of my 2nd book, so you may skip that page when and if you obtain my book from the U of Chicago library, so as not to offend your tender eyes).
Standing against the Obamatron "culture of death" is the admirable Sarah Palin:
"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil."
The whole short tribute to Palin by Patrick Buchanan is here:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=33232
Yeah Holy Cross Hospital, here, used to be GREAT when the nurses were nuns and nunettes
now, since The Doctors who used to work there bought the Hospital and made it "their own",
the hospital service now sucks and the prices are out-uve-sight!
I think that the gov't guaranteed the loan to the doctors.. and the county (me) floated the loan to remodel and expand things.
I am gonna check out Walmart for my new bifocals/perscription
next week
so far I got 2 prices using my own frames: one place wants $225-$395 depending on various things
and #2 wants under $200 both including the exam
my old Doc still wants $450 (minus what Medicare pays... which isn't much
a fine OP-ED in the NY times today
"a public option that works"
- providing means of access to something so basic
chew on that for awhile
j
has anyone here read earnest beckers' great work
THE DENIAL OF DEATH
??
j
jh:
Interesting but mostly misguided rant. And in your rant (especially against women) who's the bitter one, jh? We conservative Repubs are these days quite energised and optimistic, don't you know!
Note that during my yrs of employment at Sacred Heart General Hospital, run by the Sisters of St Joseph of Mercy in Eugene, OR
(1972-80), a financial officer there (and former nun) informed me that the hospital held nearly 400 mortgages on homes of patients who were allowed to keep them till they died, but after their deaths the hospital would acquire their homes and property.
The growing Repub populism aims to REDUCE gov't power and interference in citizens' lives, not increase it, as the Obamatrons demand. Spreading poverty is what comes of nefarious class-war spread-the-wealth schemes like the demagogic Demos promote. Maybe I'll admire them more after the richest in Congress, like moneybags heirs like Kennedy, Kerry, and Pelosi give theirs away first (after all, this is what that "robber-baron" hated by the Left, Andrew Carnegie did; also, Peter Schweitzer of the Hoover Institute has anatomies of such disgraceful lying politicians and other flaming uncharitable hypocrites like Michael Moore and Noam Chomsky in his book "Do as I Say").
Obama and Biden were conspicuous in the niggardliness toward charities until just a few yrs before their successful presidential runs. Fact is, many of the Demos are only "charitable" with OTHER people's, i.e., taxpayers and corporations', money. By squandering public money on their mascot-charges (Thomas Sowell's term), the Demos hope to "build a greater constituency" among those masses on the gov't "take," including illegal aliens and convicted felons.
stu's claim that anyone who goes without health insurance is "cheating," is a boldface lie and an insult. We recently paid an expensive lab work bill for Emmy on the spot, and for this we received a 40% discount. Most of my life I hadn't health insurance, and when I needed medical svcs I did the same--paid in cash. As I said, I paid cash PRIOR to being granted an audience by a Canadian quack who didn't even take any vitals (if he had he might have detected the swine flu with which I then Em were afflicted) before issuing a prescription for blood pressure pills. This is how quacks game the socialised med care system--they do seedy black-market-type operations, as was the case in all of those socialist "paradises" in Eastern Europe and Cuba lib-left types slaver over.
RE: "What are we fighting for?" In a word, equality.
And BTW, no matter how hard the Republicans try, no one can make another person stop acting like Christian. Gathering together doesn't make one Christian.
To quote a cliche, "Actions [DO] speak louder than words."
Matt, you asked why did I bring up Finland.
It's because Brett swanson (buried deep in the thread) said that the Nordic countries are part of my idealization (I lived in Finland for five years and have a Finnish wife).
I'm fascinated by Finland. It does have universal health care.
It has almost no wealthy citizens. It's a bit like Sparta.
Their situation is quite different. They have to worry about the Russians, with whom they have fought 52 wars. They tied a few, lost most.
Finland lost a quarter of its population fighting Russia in WWII.
So they fought for what they have.
People flooding in here have no idea what it took to build this country from scratch.
they think it was built on the oppression of Africans and South Americans and Asians.
I think it was built onthe Protestant work ethic.
Protestantism is crumbling in every sphere and being replaced with a Unitarian secularism with just a hint of a candlelight service.
This last week the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has finally allowed gay priests to be ordained and to serve in parishes.
My synod is separate from Stu's (he's ELCA).
Mine is Missouri Synod. My friend Paul calls it Misery Synod. We don't even allow women to be ordained, and are much like the Catholics in that regard.
But for some reason we don't have all the chil molester priests. I think it's because our pastors can get married.
The ELCA will probably allow cows to be ordained next. All rise, and say, MOO.
That's just before the congregation is milked to send its money to popular social causes, like finding a cure for AIDS, and Hepatitus A to Z.
As for the big health bill, the language has a lot of wiggle room in it. It's Orwellian in its opacity.
All the lines that we used to have for clarity to guide us as a people are being erased in the name of tolerance.
But I'm keeping to all the old lines. Marriage as the only superlapsarian order is first and most important.
Then the separation of church and state (another line that Obama seems to want to erase).
The cherry on top of this week's cake, is the young man who is pretending to be a woman in the races.
Everything's willy nilly. I think Lewis Carroll would love our time.
I know that I love it! Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Stuck in the middle with you.
Stu -- your look at the different provisions seems to me to be very unspecific, and not convincing.
Oh God, so much work to do, and as soon as we understand one provision, they will rewrite it, make it even more obscure, and then steamroll us with another 1017 page document on something else.
Oy vey.
Emmy brings up interesting questions of the constitutionality of the whole commercial regulation of the health care industry. Is it constitutional for the Congress to regulate a whole industry?
Couldn't SCOTUS scuttle this whole issue?
Mandating a purchase seems unconstitutional.
The government does mandate car insurance, but you don't HAVE to drive a car.
Congress is mandating a purchase, which I don't think it is in their power to do?
I found this over at centrist lawyer Ann althouse's blog (I go there very day and twice on Saturdays).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082103033.html
Maybe Scotus will block Potus?
we need cheaper plumbers... I need to fix my toilet.. it' full of dreck and the thingy won't engage! It gets soooo tiresome that all of our
"thingies"
no longer work. Them replacement parts from Mexico used to work; but, the ones from China don't.
besides, my water bill now costs more than my monthly mortgage did!
to say nothing of the other utilities' charges..
PLUS THE TAXES ON...and on....and on..
health care reform (an oxyMORON?) and it ain't even here yet!
I think I'll pass on this bogus swine-flew shot... tested for 12 days and it's "safe" for children and pregnant women? jeeze...
I think I'll move to Finland. or Sweden. or. Norway. or Roumania....
where everybodhi is happy and ice skates with Sonia Henny
do any of these places have cable tv?
"We conservative Repubs are these days quite energised and optimistic, don't you know!"
No, I don't know.
What I observe most of the time is no matter how bitter, pessimistic, back-biting and below the belt conservative Repubs may be, they do not allow themselves to be characterized as such.
They see themselves as energized and optimisitic when they are only shrill and hysterical.
So,Sarah Palin quits being governor mid-term, but not because she's a quitter or negative or spineless or any of that.
So, Sarah Palin decries "politics of destruction" but her first statements after quitting are about "death panels" which don't exist.
So, Kirby, apparently on the edge of hysteria, compares the Democrats to Nazis, but that's manly.
"Is it constitutional for the Congress to regulate a whole industry?"
It certainly is constitutional for the Congress to regulate a whole industry. Are we really so far gone as to have some of us not knowing Congress has the Constitutional power to legislate?
"Couldn't SCOTUS scuttle this whole issue?"
Nope.
"Mandating a purchase seems unconstitutional."
It's interesting you mention this Kirby, because even though I disagree with you about 99% of what you've written in this post, and I abhorr the tone you've taken, it may be we completely agree about mandated health insurance coverage being a terrible idea. I don't think it is unconstitutional, it's just a bad idea.
Part of the terrible tragedy of American politics is we've allowed it to shape itself into a kind of Punch and Judy show. Not only do we make caricatures of the other guy's arguments, we even make caricatures of our own.
There are terrible things about this healthcare reform bill and at this point I don't even want it to pass though I am adamant we need healthcare reform. One of the things I object to in this bill is the mandated purchase which I see as an enormous windfall for the health insurance companies. But this potential common ground gets totally covered over in the melee of Hitler comparisons, etc.
I see this as far simpler than one side being bad, and one side being good.
The two sides are starting with a different foundation, and there's a major differend.
It's the controversy between Pelagius and Augustine all over again.
The Democrats are Pelagian.
The Republicans are Augustinian.
I think that unless we discuss the basic framework, we can't even begin to understand the differences between the two camps.
I don't think the Democrats can talk about foundations, though, because they aren't aware that they have one.
by quitting half-way through her term, Sarah Palin can say that she is/was
not responsible for the financial hole that
Alaska is in that will surface when the next election comes around
she can say "well, THIS didn't happen when I was governor, so, vote for me for president."
I've read Ernest Becker's book "Denial of Death." If you brought up the book as a way to hint that the hysterical response to the end-of-life voluntary counseling is due to the fundamental repression of knowledge and acknowledgement of our human mortality, I think you are on to something.
The limits on the legislation of commerce are not very clearly spelled out in the Constitution. I think that's part of the issue.
There is a commerce clause, which we could Wikipedia.
It has to do with the regulation of INTERSTATE commerce.
I'm not at all certain that Congress can mandate an individual purchase based on the INTERSTATE COMMERCE CLAUSE.
There are always ways to finesse things, though, and who knows. The current SCOTUS is fairly even, and no two of them will see it as I might.
Also, Yusef, you might be reading TOO quickly my post. I'm not saying that OBAMA himself is a Nazi. I'm only saying that SOCIALISM can LEAD to Nazism, especially if it becomes a one-party state.
Right now, that's not the issue.
You are a latecomer to this discussion and probably haven't read through the comments (who would -- it would take you all day).
But still we've already talked about these issues.
Part of my wish to make the Nazi comparison is that Pelosi started it.
I wanted to put the shoe on the other foot. Also, I had to read Bush as Hitler for 8 years.
Now it seems only fair to imply that Obama's positions are similar to some of Hitler's positions.
I do want to make Marxists quite uncomfortable with their thinking.
But I would doubt if any true communists are still reading my blog. I know that Carl Sachs gave up on me, and my blog, a while back.
Using him as a litmus test, I think I've lost that market share.
I agree with you, Ed Baker. Palin is the most cowardly, least responsible politician I've ever seen and this needs to be recognized before she succeeds in being in a position to lead the USA down the sort of rathole she's led Alaskans.
"I wanted to put the shoe on the other foot. Also, I had to read Bush as Hitler for 8 years."
Oh yes, the old "two wrongs make a right" strategy.
"Now it seems only fair to imply that Obama's positions are similar to some of Hitler's positions."
Yes, but Obama's positions are also similar to Bush's positions. So it's only fair to imply Bush's positions are similar to some of Hitler's positions.
"I do want to make Marxists quite uncomfortable with their thinking."
What makes me uncomfortable is the extreme difficulty of knowing what you are trying to say.
perhaps it would be helpful to the argument to refer to healthcare in america as a surrogate religion complete with doctrines and rituals
who are the high priests?
who are the acolytes?
what are the doctrines?
what are the promises?
who conducts the rituals?
who manages the "indoctrination"?
people want healing and redemption and freedom to feel good good god
welcome to the church of american healthcare
please genuflect or bow with head to the floor
the simplicity you refer to kirby is
the dems are saying it's about human beings?
the repubs are saying
what about the money and the jobs and the wealth?..what about the pursuit of happiness --
translate
greed and opulence
stu made an observation in the first comment about violence and the dissemination of information
almost everything the bush administration pulled off was sanctioned by a close door policy
they made a deal with the big 6 media greed machines --- there was almost no coverage of the events of war and there was a lock down with major news reporting as to what could and could not be stated
we saw a strange form of totalitarian fascism creep into our playground
obama seems to be saying by his willingness to be with the people
"i am with you"
bush and cheney seemed to be saying
"we know what is good for you" "we will decide" "the representative aspects of government are basically a nuisance"
my sense is that people are just now realizing the heinous aspects of the previous administration and they're blaming it on the present one
JA i've talked with canadians about health care and while they have some issues they seem to have very few complaints
my good friend in calgary now married to a canadian says while he had to wait for a few things he felt that the quality of care was superior to anything he had in USA
it may be a little different for a foreigner travelling in the land
he described an emergency visit once and said he was impressed by the fact that nobody asked him about his insurance...it was all about the medical problem at hand
my coments about the women are not to be read as antifeminist so much as an observation of the evidence facts in hospitals...i think it is all just to damn much and people are emphasizing things that are not important people are saying having a job is more important than having a family...and they all want authority...for instance i was not allowed to wheel the wheelchair 100 ft to the emergency entrance..someone getting paid and who actually knew more about wheeling the wheelchair than i obviously did or did not know
one doctor one nurse on call for every neighborhood male or female i don't care...they should take to the street girls can be doctors sure but then they should be teachers like the word implies
i come from a medical family
even my father will say now
that the whole scene is grotesquely mismanaged and overburdened with administration details...he tends to think that doctors should be open to giving free health care at a moments notice and leave it at that
i applaud the rise of alternative health care
i've learned more about my body and my health from an accupuncturist and from homeopathy than i've ever learned from western medical science
we should fund the alternatives
always a pleasure to read helen losses views someone who actually appears to think instead of simply react...her blog is full of henri nouwen quotes and thomas merton references and really fine poetry people should go there and read...thanks helen dead mule
j
congress regulated the building of the railroads congress regulated the the growth of the airline industry congress regulated the hiway construction industry congress si there to make sure that there are regulations so the irregularities don't control everything
what if if obama succeeds in bringing back the railroads maybe then they should move all healthcare onto railroads and give people free rides while staying on moving railcar hospitals...just a thought
reform of the railroads and healthcare could be one big operation
j
Railroads would fit into the interstate commerce notion, too, JH. Nice.
All you have to do is go across a state line and you'd get a free abortion.
Euthenasia performed gratis depending on party affiliation (throw momma from the train).
i guess there could be abortion trains...maybe there already are
i guess my inspiration for that comment about trains comes from a panel discussion before the 1986 election
eugene mccarthy was on the panel and the question was asked about legislating prayer in schools
and he said he tended to think of it along the same lines as bussing and that maybe the answer would be for kids to be allowed pray on the busses
sort of surrealist response
crashing two completely different images or ideas together
whao conductor
trainwreeeeeeeeck!
j
It was fun.
Of course, Hitler had other ideas about trains, and deporting people on them, so maybe it's not the best symbol, but it's interesting that it comes up.
It would be fun if Obama cuold kill two birds with one stone. Bring back the trains, and do whatever else he wants to do on them, at the same time.
The hoboes would be back in business, and with them, a resurgence of volk musik.
Jim/Emmy,
Not to hijack this thread, but I'm researching tomorrow's sermon.
JADL,
your thoughts on the flop between phagein & trogo at the end of John 6? Eat v Munch -- what was the 1st century usage?
Thanks,
M
also you can email me strong dot verse at gmail
If we let the hoboes be the doctors, and the illegals be the nurses, and let the trains wander about the cities we could improve the economy, cheapen health care, and solve unemployment all at the same time.
GM, somehow work the sound of a train going choo-choo into your sermon, and then work around that! It would keep the congregation awake.
Do you take turns being pastor in your congregation?
That's one of the things that's happened to the ELCA. The voting group consists largely of laymen.
Those who've been through seminary are I think never more than 50%. Not quite sure of the numbers.
Just anybody's driving the train and ministering to souls.
A lot of groups just let everybody do the heavy-lifting.
I think we should leave it to the pastors.
Kirby,
We're "between" pastors right now (and we're really too small to afford one anyway). I feel a strong calling to lead worship and so the licensed minister of the congregation and I are trading off Sundays for now (except he's moving to Hawaii for a year starting in September).
We'll see how it goes.
"Palin, Aug. 7: The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care."
"Olson Aug. 20:Life itself is under attack. Babies declared unfit, or unwanted, are being destroyed, and now it's the government of the Democrats who argue that it's ok to kill a baby for any reason whatsoever and for the government to condone and even pay for the murder. And the elderly, too, are under attack. It's now ok to kill someone whose "quality of life" has slipped (the Death Panels will decide this -- each case 'on its own merits' in an Ad hoc manner)."
"But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, and their fighting comrades, the Marxists, to impute responsibility for the downfall precisely to the man who alone had shown a superhuman will and energy in his effort to prevent the catastrophe which he had foreseen and to save the nation from that hour of complete overthrow and shame. By placing responsibility for the loss of the world war on the shoulders of Ludendorff they took away the weapon of moral right from the only adversary dangerous enough to be likely to succeed in bringing the betrayers of the Fatherland to Justice.
All this was inspired by the principle--which is quite true in itself--that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.
—Adolf Hitler , Mein Kampf, vol. I, ch. X[1]"
Joe --
I'm pretty sure in my post near the 50-mark I clearly covered why folks are engaging in the slippery-slope fallacy with regards to the "death panels."
Folks have been right before, even when they're all slippery slopey and fallacious (see abortion or religion or standards of behavior or violence) so they have every expectation that "end-of-life" counseling will result in "death panels."
Indeed, just talk to any of a large percentage of OB/GYNs who recommend abortions for children with disabilities -- like Down Syndrome.
Or to doctors who recommend killing yourself because you're in pain, or old, or tired.
Folks assume (which makes an ass out of you and me, I know) that with the force of Government behind the doctors their suggestions will take on more weight. Certainly a reasonable assumption.
But since it was popularized through the mouth of "that stupid bitch who shops at Wal*Mart" it can't be a belief that's taken seriously now can it?
"Folks have been right before, even when they're all slippery slopey and fallacious (see abortion or religion or standards of behavior or violence) so they have every expectation that "end-of-life" counseling will result in "death panels." "
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”
Joseph Goebbels
"But since it was popularized through the mouth of "that stupid bitch who shops at Wal*Mart" it can't be a belief that's taken seriously now can it?"
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap.”
Napoleon Bonaparte
Yusef Asabiyah:
. . . if that is your name. You said:
"They see themselves as energized and optimisitic when they are only shrill and hysterical.
So,Sarah Palin quits being governor mid-term, but not because she's a quitter or negative or spineless or any of that.
So, Sarah Palin decries 'politics of destruction' but her first statements after quitting are about 'death panels' which don't exist."
Your subsequent posts show your obvious relish for quoting totalitarians who will brook no opposition (Hitler, Goebbels, Napoleon Bonaparte). Qui bono, Yusef? Tell us a little about yourself--apart from the leftist gibberish you try to write.
Sarah Palin has sacrificed much for her convictions, what have you, pray tell? Yusef?
Sarah Palin is as self serving as a person can be and if you haven't noticed that yet, God help you.
Yusef:
If she serves herself by serving her family (her disabled baby, e.g., or her eldest daughter and her child), her husband, her state and country (public svc and offering to serve as vice-president, or her public commentary, say, on the 'Death panels' issue), and her God (her faith and practise of it), then could we say self-svc is righteous?
Then, sir, since you seem to have emerged as a doughty commentator on this blogsite full-blown, like Athene from Zeus's head, can you tell us something about yourself other than that you seem to have a penchant for extruding baseless assertions about Sarah Palin, a truly admirable person?
Yusef lives in Alaska. I can't remember anything else. He's quite hateful, and gets increasingly belligerent and close-minded quite easily.
I don't know anything else about him. I've run into him on a couple of boards. He will start out being somewhat normal, and then shortly, he shortcircuits, and just goes insane.
I got me a Living Will, and a DNR
does that make me a member of Palin's fictitious "Death Panel"?
I think that maybe Ysef may be the sane one
and just gets frustrated by all of y'alls' ego-centric/know-it-all non-sense!
etc
pee est (a poem that I sent to CC in 1978:
what if suddenly
you discovered that
I was the sane one?
I can give credit to DeLater for listing some of the qualities by which she decides to judge Palin and perhaps other politicians as "truly admirable."
For example, she says, "she serves herself by serving her family (her disabled baby, e.g., or her eldest daughter and her child), her husband, her state and country (public svc and offering to serve as vice-president, or her public commentary, say, on the 'Death panels' issue), and her God (her faith and practise of it)..."
The gullibility and superficiality DeLater exposes here does frustrate me.
Why anyone would include Palin's comments on "death panels" as evidence of the "truly admirable" when Palin's comments on "death panels" are easily exposed as blatant lies, is something I cannot fathom.
During the period of time when it could have made a practical difference to the outcome of history, in other words during the time of his ascent to dictatorial power, we could have compiled a surprisingly similar list of qualities for Adolph Hitler.
By nearly every account Adolph Hitler was an outstanding soldier-- he fought courageously for Germany in WWI and was severely injured. He "offered" to be a public servant.(He "offered" to be chancellor of Germany.) He was a rousing public speaker. He was shrewd. He "exposed" the dark machinations of the enemies of the German state (e.g. the jews and the Marxists.)He had some undeniable policy successes(which by the way Palin does not have.) He was portrayed, through the German media, as a man of the highest moral principle, and devout. He wished to "save" the German people during a time of great crisis for the German people.
It seems to me so basic to any notion of intelligence, sanity or political maturity that any person claiming to any of these to be willing to carefully test political appearances--to see if what appears to be, is.
Again about the "death panels": we can,with a click on our computer, call up sec1233 of HR 3200 to look for ourselves with our own eyes to see whether they are there and we could see they are not. Because there are slippery slopes in politics, we would do well while we are at it to see if there's a convincing slippery slope to "death panels" in sec1233. We can see there is not.
BUT-it just doesn't seem to matter any more when a lie is exposed as a lie. Even a lie this easily exposed.(NOTE-this happens to be consistent with Hitler's observations on the Big Lie. Hitler was, as a matter of fact, surprisingly frank and honest on the art of lying.) It is frustrating as hell and frightening as hell, too. I think it is frightening as hell when what I say is construed as leftist because as far as I am concerned what I am pointing to above applies (almost) as much to Obama as Palin, (but Palin is clearly one of the most extreme cases we've ever had in the US.)
Hi, Yusef; Ho Joe; or better, Hey, YA!:
I suppose the point of your laughable comparison of Hitler and Sarah Palin is to traduce or denigrate that fine, intelligent lady and patriotic American. You seem to have read two or three lines of the "Wikipedia" blurb on Hitler, fixed on your space beanie, and blasted off with rhetorical rocket fuel. And what a hoot you ARE!
Actually, YA! if you had read what I wrote earlier about the VA pamphlet, "End-of-Life Decisions," taking care to keep the place with your finger and sounding each word out slowly and carefully, you might (I say, I say, might) detect some faint Neanderthal glimmer of the cynical cheapness of the Obama admin's plans for us war vets when we can no longer fight for our fearless leader. Well, perhaps, says he (affecting for once a belief in true Scottish economies--the most heart-warming of them all), you can die for me, can't you?
Superficiality? Hey, YA!? How 'bout your risible and hallucinatory "bases" for your absurd comparisons to begin with? The fall of the German Empire and exile of Kaiser Wilhelm II, the communist risings and perpetual threats to the state, the defeat--along with the rightful retaking of Alsace-Lorraine by the French, the loss of the colonies, a new and untested constitution, the war reparations, the weakness of the Weimar Republic, revanchist ressentiment, the inflation, the moral licentiousness among so many of the young in a very conservative country, the myth of the "stab in the back" or that Germany had not really lost the war militarily but by conspiracy against it, the promise of a new empire uniting all German-speaking peoples, the bellicose militarism, the myth of the international Jewish conspiracy, etc. (yes bozo, there are a few slight differences in the political climate in Germany before Hitler's ascension to power and that of the US before the 2008 election, in case you hadn't noticed), and all you could come with is a few vague and utterly bogus points to compare the two.
But I DO apologise profusely for calling your hallucinations "leftist," for that amounts to a slap on the face to our doughty and occasionally insightful blogsite lib-leftists like jh, stu, Tom, and Brett. Your groundless delusions aren't "leftist," they're puerilely idiotic--and the very quintessence of the dregs of puerile conspiracy theories phantasised about during a vigorous wipe with the torchcul.
And jes' see how you've stirred up a harmless old half-coherent bohemian nutter like Ed! An' I jes' got him to talk some occasional sense, and you go an' spoil it all. . . .
If you want to cease posting rubbish on this blogsite, YA, I won't have to offer you the closing salutation of "Maladetto e distrutto sia da Dio lo primo punto ch'io incontrai di quel' cretino! ("May God curse and destroy the first moment I met this cretin!").
(Kirby, you've met this conspicuous moron before--is he worth the trouble to wind up a bit more? For I just got started on this strutting dude's case. . . .)
The point wasn't to compare Palin to Hitler...I agree with whoever it was who earlier in the conversation mentioned how tiresome, predictable, and worthless such comparisons are.
The point was that your way of judging, your criteria for judgment, isn't sufficient because it doesn't allow you to make real distinctions.
I see you are a miseducated idiot with an extreme overestimation of your own intelligence and ability. You don't need to worry about whether or not to wind me up--I'm out of here.
Hey, YA!: Just to give your sorry a-- a kick out the door, here's a commentary sampler for you on sec 1233 of HR 3200--I jes' hope the words with over two syllables won't overly "frustrate" you to the point of utterly vanquishing your obviously miniscule vocab resources:
Does anyone imagine that Barack Obama has sat down with HR 3200 and studied Section 1233 which concerns advanced care planning consultations? Has he seriously considered the implications of the language? Has he, or any supporters of his reforms, even attempted to refute these concerns by referring to the text of the provisions in question? He’s a brilliant Harvard lawyer [sic] and U of C law professor [sic]. Why doesn’t he go through the troubling language and show us why we shouldn’t be concerned? This is right up his alley. Instead we get this:
"The rumor that’s been circulating a lot lately is this idea that somehow the House of Representatives voted for “death panels” that will basically pull the plug on grandma because we’ve decided that we don’t — it’s too expensive to let her live anymore. (Laughter.) And there are various —there are some variations on this theme."
He goes on to speculate about the intentions of the writers of the provisions and the sources of the “rumors.” None of this addresses the language of the bill.
The following people, some of them liberals, have studied or at least read the provisions and are unable to dismiss them in the manner of Obama and company. And their concerns are based on what is written in HR 3200. Among them:
Charles Lane: "Though not mandatory, as some on the right have claimed, the consultations envisioned in Section 1233 aren’t quite “purely voluntary,” as Rep. Sander M. Levin (D-Mich.) asserts. To me, “purely voluntary” means “not unless the patient requests one.” Section 1233, however, lets doctors initiate the chat and gives them an incentive — money — to do so. Indeed, that’s an incentive to insist. Wesley Smith, who has studied the language closely and offered revisions that would absolutely rule out a mandatory interpretation. The section was revised but the ambiguity remains. Mr. Smith has written extensively on section 1233 and is the source for factual information and analysis on this subject."
(to be continued)
(continued)
Eugene Robinson: "If the government says it has to control health-care costs and then offers to pay doctors to give advice about hospice care, citizens are not delusional to conclude that the goal is to reduce end-of-life spending."
Charles Grassley: “In the House bill, there is counseling for end of life,” Grassley said. “You have every right to fear. You shouldn’t have counseling at the end of life, you should have done that 20 years before. Should not have a government run plan to decide when to pull the plug on grandma.”
Sandy Szwarc: "More importantly, it is clearly an effort to coerce seniors to sign such an order. There are multiple loopholes that open doors for its misuse, and abuse of the elderly, while also including no protections for these patients."
Betsy McCaughey: “In so many words, it is [mandatory] — because although it is presented in the bill as a Medicare service, when a doctor or a nurse approaches an elderly person who is in poor health, facing a decline in health, and raises these issues, it is not offering a service. It is pressuring them,” McCaughey said Monday. “I would not want that to occur when I am not at my parents’ bedside.”
Lee Siegel: "This reeks of the Big Brother nightmare of oppressive government that the shrewd propagandists on the right are always blathering on about. Except that this time, they could not be more right."
Herbert London: "Although it does not make reference to euthanasia, it is easy to draw the conclusion that counseling by someone, who is not necessarily equipped to make medical decisions, could be interpreted as euthanasia guidance. Suppose someone of 80 has cancer, a condition that may require aggressive and expensive treatment. What will a counselor suggest? My guess is he will point out that the treatment is discomforting and is unlikely to extend life expectancy significantly. Perhaps the best thing to do is let nature take its course. Is this euthanasia? That depends on perspective, but that conclusion cannot be ruled out.
(continued)
Armstrong Williams: "You can’t control costs without telling someone they will have to either wait or go without. There’s no getting around that fact. Look to European countries and how they’re assigning “value” to human life and procedures. As morbid as it sounds, how else can you quantify access and enumerate costs? Obama and his staff started this. Democrats just codified it in language that offers Medicare coverage for doctors who want to counsel seniors on end-of-life decisions. Has it been blown out of proportion? Yes, but they’re very real concerns. Conservatives shouldn’t get the blame for what frightens constituents, particularly senior citizens."
Tom McClusky: "The biggest question mark comes from who wrote Section 1233 of the House health care overhaul bill. The original language was written by assisted suicide supporter Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.) alongside a group that once was called the Hemlock Society – the nation’s biggest advocates of euthanasia and assisted suicide. The Hemlock Society helped draft Oregon’s assisted suicide law – legislation that has led some afflicted people in Oregon getting letters “consulting” them that, while the state run plan would not pay for their cancer treatments, the state would be happy to pay for assisted suicide if they choose that option.
Additionally, Section 1401 establishes the Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research. A similar center was established in the economic stimulus bill passed in February. The report issued by the House Appropriations Committee at that time explained what they hoped to accomplish with this “research.”:
“By knowing what works best and presenting this information more broadly to patients and healthcare professionals, those items, procedures and interventions that are most effective to prevent, control and treat health conditions will be utilized¸ while those that are found to be less effective and in some cases, more expensive, will no longer be prescribed. (Emphasis added).”
Five times in various committees there were attempts to ensure that “comparative effectiveness research” is not used for rationing purposes. Each time the Democrats on the committees voted the amendments down.
Additionally, the Obama plan relies heavily on cuts to Medicare to pay for the new benefits. Despite these cuts he fails to address the solvency issue of Medicare, inevitably leading to reduction of benefits to participants.
Couple these with public comments of supporters of the leading bills in Congress, like President Obama and Senator Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.), that the federal government would be making decisions that usually are left up to patients and doctors the onus should be on supporters of the bill to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that their legislation would not lead to rationing of care.
And Sarah Palin. She quotes Charles Lane and Eugene Robinson, and the bill, in her FB follow-up to Obama’s dismissal of this issue in Portsmouth on Tuesday: "With all due respect, it’s misleading for the President to describe this section as an entirely voluntary provision that simply increases the information offered to Medicare recipients. The issue is the context in which that information is provided and the coercive effect these consultations will have in that context. Section 1233 authorizes advanced care planning consultations for senior citizens on Medicare every five years, and more often “if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual … or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility… or a hospice program.” [3] During those consultations, practitioners must explain “the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice,” and the government benefits available to pay for such services. [4]
Now put this in context. These consultations are authorized whenever a Medicare recipient’s health changes significantly or when they enter a nursing home, and they are part of a bill whose stated purpose is “to reduce the growth in health care spending.” [5] Is it any wonder that senior citizens might view such consultations as attempts to convince them to help reduce health care costs by accepting minimal end-of-life care? As Charles Lane notes in the Washington Post, Section 1233 “addresses compassionate goals in disconcerting proximity to fiscal ones. . . . If it’s all about alleviating suffering, emotional or physical, what’s it doing in a measure to “bend the curve” on health-care costs?” [6]
Read the rest. For a wild-eyed trailer-trash hillbilly breeder, she sure makes a lot of sense.
Al Hitler is Franken.
Jacques, that's Yusef's M.O. He starts a vigorous debate, decides his ideas are decisive, and then he leaves in a huff when nobody immediately switches sides.
So don't get a big head that you chased him out. Any of us could have done it, too.
He doesn't have any emotional stability and can't brook a difference of opinion.
Thank goodness we all differ in our opinions or else how could we ever have any kind of a conversation?
Aww, don't ruin Jacques' fun, Kirby. And he was so proud ;)
JH:
I meant to respond yesterday to your misogynist crap.
Quite frankly, I'd love nothing more than to never have to work a day in my life, sit on my tuffet, eat bonbons, maybe do a little dissertation on the side, and pump out kids every 9 months. I think that'd be fantastic! Seriously! I'd have a bakers' dozen of the little buggers if I could!
The idea of having nothing to do all day after my house drudgery is over is very appealing. Then there's always the allure of vacuuming in my pearls and heels (which I do from time to time,) and greeting my tired and sore husband at the door with bended knees and a great big wet lipstick surprise.
Very hot.
Unfortunately for me, bonbon-eating and husband-greeting of the manner described above is not an option.
Unfortunately for me, I also have a mind. And I'm cursed with the nagging feeling that I might have something to contribute to the field of English literature.
But with God's help, I might be able to rise above these shabby aspirations and foolish female pretensions to wisdom and knowledge. With God's help, I'll be able to leave these silly woman's notions behind and live the life He intended for me--sitting on my duff, doing dishes, and living off my husband's social security.
Can I get an Amen?
JH:
Actually, though, I think it is a shame that in today's world little girls can't aspire to be mothers and wives. It has become a courageous decision to do what women have been doing since the dawn of time--cook, clean up, and make babies. I think it says something rather nasty about society today that in our pro-choice world a woman cannot feel free to choose to be a mother and wife.
But that's what it should be, a choice. Nobody ought to be "sent home" for being a female. That's rather Saudi Arabian.
Kirby:
On Yusef the Magnificent I've no such boastful pretensions as you suggest. Just had to have my "invective fix" and collect my rewards from Em.
JA
emmy
my generalized rant was meant to expose some recent experiences i've had in the health care world
i credit a very interesting women with basically teaching me how to write (she'd be horrified with my lack of punctuation here) and introducing me to the writings of william blake
she was unable to concieve children but she adopted and i think she must've been a pretty good mother alongside being a superb english professor
when she died i was the abbey cemetery sexton and i took it upon myself to actually dig her grave by hand and procure a headstone for her
it was done as and act of honor
actually i'm in favor of any woman learning and developing the mind and working out an intelligent vocation
one of my favorite recent discoveries in the world of philosophy is elizabeth anscombe she was brilliant
sally over on an earthling wonders is a brilliant geologist theologian and singer a great friend
i was referring to the experience in the hospital of being faced with dozens of women swirling about in a contained mayhem of health care it all just seemed crazy to me...i did the math 3 patients in the ER area and over 40 workers...what are all these people doing i thought...and the overwhelming majority were women 95% i'd say
part of it is the economy which seems to necessitate two incomes now in every family
i think we've made work into being a raison d'etre in this country and women are by and large more energetic when it comes to work so whammo get the girls out there energized to work and make money and then yes go shopping and spend money that's what we want isn't it more money more shopping more independence
it just all seems crazy to me
another good friend married catholic with six children has confided that in some circumstances she is made to feel like a less than adequate person because she has simply chosen to be a mother...she's done the old fashioned thing of capitulating to her professsional husband forsaking her identity in favor of his yadda yadda yadda...but she understands herself well and sees the future of her children requires her sacrifice...her rather profound prayer life sometimes leaves me embarrassed
i'm really quite a bum
i'd like to be more spiritual
but i'm a bum with a guitar
something of a deadbeat
sorry
who knows what would befall me were i out in the world trying to put together something that looks like a life
we most likely agree on the negative fallout due to rampant feminism...it's just that i take it as a guy looking at it from a safe distance but am still amazed
everything about the modern agenda more or less disturbs me
i honestly don't think i could negotiate any of it very well
my overall critique is that women have dropped the ball in the area of wisdom...wisdom that they should be imparting to the next generations of women...i'm sure some of it is out there...i'm reading some annie dillard this summer - she's great
but the ersatz wisdom is coming from people like oprah and suzi orman...and i can see it in the girls coming to college here they are ditssy to beat the band but they all have career goals yadda yadda yadda...they are being force fed this notion that what their biological clocks are telling them is wrong and they have to have a career
nobody has to have a career
i think everyone is being brainwashed
very few women i know even catholic women show any sort of interest other than to react and resist to the teaching of the holy father...as if it were beneathe them to listen to someone like that
i'll admit my frustration with it all
in fact i'm pondering writing a blogpost on this very topic soon
thanks for taking me on
slapping me a little
yes i will tend to take things to absurd extremes
as a way of contending with perceived absurdity
i admire your spunk here
jacques is it would seem fortunate
hang in there with us
this blog needs the insights and the wise words of women
otherwise numbskulls like me take over
j
Yes, I miss WW's viewpoint, too. And now Helen has increasingly absented herself.
I confess that the whole thing about the ELCA really turned my world upside down. But I don't think I want the world to be run by white men who have a lock on all power, either.
It's just we seem to have either one or the other. In the words of Rodney King, "why can't we all just get along?"
Can we blame it on Satan in the Garden? If it's not one group slyly practicing or promoting genocide, it's another.
People tend to form into power blocs, and set about to destroy anything that isn't like them.
If that's the way of the world, then so be it.
In that instance, which Madison thought it was, we should at least allow various factions a place on the playing field.
(I'm thinking of electric football games with scrums of players throbbing electrically over the table, as used to happen in my house after every Christmas, -- as they all ended up in some mess on the sidelines totally marginalized, and without direction but still somehow bumping up against one another, and trying to get somewhere until I would finally get disgusted and put the game away until the following Christmas.)
JH:
As always, we have more points of concord than we have of disagreement. Sometimes you wouldn't know it, though, judging by to our initial reactions to one another's comments.
I admire women who put their family first, but only when they approach it as joyful task. Nothing ticks me off more than women who “slave away” in "misery" and then demand to be thought of as martyrs. There are too many of these kinds of women--my own mother, for example. She was given every advantage in staying home. My father hired help to aid her in housekeeping, and offered to go to law school at night so he could stay home with me during the day so mum could finish her degree. She was 10 credits from her degree, but chose not to complete the course. She never let me forget what a "sacrifice" (unnecessary as it was) she made for me.
I hate feminism. I really do. Chivalry is dead (in all but a few primo men like my husband,) and women are treated like sex slaves or slaves to their own sex drives. There's this Sex and the City notion that what's (stereotypically) good for men is just as good for women--anonymous promiscuity, love 'em and leave 'em, sex without consequences, without love, commitment, or covenant.
The thing is, this sort of behavior tears at our souls. Especially womens' souls. Wonder why so many American women are taking anti-depressants? I sometimes think it is because our degraded souls are crying out to God. My most unhappy friends have the least stable love lives, flitting from partner to partner trying to find in another person that which is missing in their own soul. It is a futile effort, and I wish they’d realize it.
I think joy can be found in living in a way according to our natures, the natures we've been given by God, by living in Godly dignity in our corruptible bodies. Current culture is an assault against women's Godly dignity. I lead a married life of thrilling monogamy in accord with God’s wishes for me, and my life is joyful.
I can’t wait to be a mother someday. I also can’t wait to contribute to my field whether it is in the writing of fiction or whether it is through my research in Irish epic verse. I plan on staying home with my future daughter as much as I can, but I am in the position where someday I will have to be the sole working provider for the family. She will have a stay-at-home father who will also be a fantastic tutor and playmate for her. I think girls need strong, moral fathers to help them set standards for themselves as to what is desirable and acceptable behavior in the opposite sex.
There are so many girls without fathers in this country, and I think we're seeing the consequences.
Emmy --
research in Epic Irish poetry? We really do need to talk off blog (I can't imagine too many of these folks want to get into the esoteric and arcane qualities of epic verse. . .)
M
I saw a beautiful country song on Huckabee last night about girls and fathers and it was about dancing with the father. It made me cry really really hard it was so good. It hit a spot that rock music NEVER hits. I can't remember what it was called. There were three or four young women (not raving beauties, but not elephantwomen, either), and I think one guy on a guitar.
Dear Lutheran Surrealist,
You wrote:
"Yes, I miss WW's viewpoint, too. And now Helen has increasingly absented herself."
You miss my viewpoint?? I'm touched.
Seriously though, these commentaries are getting long, complicated and off topic. I just don't have time to follow the threads. I mean....the post about the ELCA allowing gay ministers to openly have a committed relationship devolved into comments about Maxine Waters, and then conservative vs liberal viewpoints regarding law enforcement. Criminy!
And right now you have professors debating themselves. Other people commenting don't get much attention. That's ok. Stu is a nice balance to Jacques Albert. I used to like your debates with Carl Sachs.
Still, when I take my time to comment about the ELCA issues, all I get is inflammatory, illogical comments from GM, who strikes me as more of a misogynist than JH strikes Emmy Bee. So be it. The topics head off in directions I don't have time to keep up with.
So I'm still checking in. My lack of comments is not due to being fed up, as it appears Helen is.
WW
ooooh! p.s. I meant to comment earlier, but I headed out to vacation. Kyle thinks I'm hot???!! Cool! Especially since I'm 46. Thanks Kyle!
I
"strike you as a misogynist."
That's punny.
Wendy—
As one of those contentious professors, let me send some love your way. [Yes, I've chosen that particular coloquialism for "pay attention to" because it has the collateral benefit of tweaking Kirby :-).] I didn't respond to your notes on the gay ordination thread because I didn't have anything to add but mere agreement. Your input is interesting, and distinctive.
It is funny how these threads have a life of their own. To the extent that we can avoid having each thread become just another venue for rehashing a standing argument, we do well. But some of us don't always do well.
Peace
They are acting like Nazis?
You and Glen Beck Kirb. I hate to say it but you've degenerated into a hackneyed nearly ready to fight in the right wing militia cry baby.
Please don't confuse socialism with Nazis Kirb. It's idiotic.
Nice late tack-on to this thread, Meg, that is, for a deranged jihadi mouthpiece. . . . Have a bracing glass of sand on me. . . .
WW, thanks for stopping in. I missed your spin through, and am sorry to have done so.
It's true, the comments fly fast and furious, and sometimes I myself don't know all the figures. Maxine Waters?
I try to keep track of folks, and details. I spent a half hour tracking down whatever happened to Tommy James of the Shondells yesterday. It's summer for about another half a week, and then, wham, all my time will go out the window, and I'll have to stay much more focused on school.
Tommy James, who had the hit Mony Mony in about 1965, had an on-stage heart attack in 1970, which slowed up his appearances. However, forty years later he's still touring.
Crystal Blue Persuasion, Hanky Panky, and a few other hits under his belt, he can still sing. He's about 65, I think.
I don't know -- it was the first pop music I ever bought. I still remember bringing the 45 home (his records always had orange labels).
And listening to them over and over. I loved the driving rhythm in the background.
Shake it down
Turn around
Come on pony!
The record probably wouldn't seem all that revolutionary today, but imagine it playing Afghanistan under the Taliban.
Yeah Wendy - you are kinda hot ;-) Needless to say I had an image in my head of what someone who writes a blog in the guise of her cat would look like/be like, and it wasn't the Everest-climbing studette that came to the for.
And guys like to get into pissing matches -fruitless and juvenile at times, but also the basis for a lot of advancement, invention, sound argument, and good ol' fashioned fun. My understanding of the health care debate comes mostly through this blog (no TV, no radio, sparse internet time) and for that I'm glad - folks here are more intelligent, and have more space, and are more open than what you'd find on the TVision.
AND we don't actually know each other, so we won't be like ending friendships with our fights.
And it's true that sometimes when we're trying to see who can pee furthest into the forest we get excited by the grass we just started and move our targets. And these guys are profs who have a lot of urine in them, so they are like sprinklers, spinning around and just goin' all over the place...(apologies for the bad extended metaphor)
We hit these periods of explosions in the comments boxes - right now, we've got Stu and jacques, both of whom have a lot of knowledge, unflexible opinions, and they often like to respond to each and every point. AND they have completely different approaches to argument, so it takes a while to sift things down and come to a place of understanding.
Brett:
I noticed on your bio that you've made films. I'm curious; what kind of films do you make? Docu-dramas? "Glamour" films, you know, like, um, "Stewardesses in Heat"? Or . . . ?
A couple on months ago I met a documentary filmmaker of the unlikely name of Bart Simpson (we were both doing laundry downtown)--I guess (Em says) that's the name of a character in some animated TV entertainment (like you, we haven't TV, but we do watch DVDs that are mostly obtained at our public library here in Ann Arbor; we also listen to right-wing [and occasionally left-wing] talk radio, just for fun--Mark Levin's rants against libs are precious). Bart'd made a movie called "Corporation" and was flying next day to LA for the premiere at UCLA of his movie on big bad corporate capos who are supposedly screwing over Costa Rican banana pickers (he said the corporate baddies were trying to block the showing of the film). Any info on this or other movies like it?
I've seen a number of documentaries from the Left, like Al Gore's imperiously self-indulgent "An Inconvenient Truth" (Em and I sat pretty much alone, so's we could have a good yuk--which we did--while the sidewalk lotus-cum-latte crowd gasped in horror at Gore's apocalyptic hallucinations as he rode up and down, his waxy-fruit man-tan beading up with sweat as he rode up and down on his groaning High-Low platform--here, Manhattan under water, there most of Florida inundated, there again, polar bears in full swimming panic at the supposedly evanescent Arctic ice pack (not true of course) . . . . They played this bomb for weeks in Ann Arbor to even more evanescent, single-digit crowds.
Michael Moore's festering propaganda compost heaps we couldn't bear to pay to see, so we just waited till the ol' flamin' hypocrite with the thirty-pound neck goiter's docu-phony flicks appeared at the public library. They made great sport of this self-touting buffoon in "An American Carol," a patriotic comedy with Jon Voight.
Michael Moore's a douche, and I ain't seen an Inconvenient truth.
I'm mostly a writer - an accidental producer, sometimes helping to raise money, pick up film from the airport, find a cool-looking leaf etc. ...
I work with a good friend of mine from highschool (we write together, he directs)...all short films so far, though we are at the beginning stages of working on a feature-length script that we'll probably actually possibly make (having written two that will go unmade, well, one might be made in 'ze future if we happen to actually get somewhere with any of this.
(for the record, we've made 4-6 films depending how you count things, and have written at least a half-dozen more).
My bud's going to grad. school at USC for film-making - he was a PLS major at Notre Dame...his biggest influences are Emerson, Malick and on top of that all the ol' shit just like you Jacqueso! My biggest influences are the people I meet (and study as part of my job), my detailed daydreams, folky-yet-literary musicians, and Kirby...
I provide the punch, pizzaz, and volume, he provides the precision, direction, and success-driven-personality. In general we balance each other out - I write too fast, he writes too slow, he takes himself a tad too seriously, I don't take myself seriously enough, etc., but we share a similar basic worldview and love of exploring the struggle between our divinity and our baseness and the yearning to hold onto those rare 'moments' when the two seem to, temporarily, become one...
Our themes generally have to do with things like finding eternity in the transient and the relationship between memory/experience/faith. That sorta stuff. His filmmaking style can be a bit slow and introspective (a la Malick, but somewhat more informal in some ways) so I think we're learning that the best stuff comes when we're working with 'intense' material (like Malick in a war, or chilling w/a murderer).
Brett:
Where can one view the results of your collaboration with your movie-making friend? Do you have showings at "indedependent" film festivals, or . . . ? "You-Tube," perhaps?
Do you think that "film" is an art analogous to painting, music, sculpture, poetry, etc.? Do you think of yourself and your buddy as "artists"? Do you think that film-making is a legitimate subject in college and intellectually comparable to "all the ol' shit just like you Jacqueso"?
BTW, your buddy is to be commended for in such short time having apparently acquired (as you say) all the elements of history (to the MA level), philosophy, natural science (undergrad geology, mineralogy, microbiology, anatomy and physiology, chemistry, meteorology, physiological psychology, and physics), mathematics (alas though in my case, only a yr of calculus), art and music history, all major social "sciences" (political economy, anthropology, etc. to the upper division levels) literature (to the PhD level), Latin, Greek, French, Italian (all to the grad level), and German (only a yr and a half, though I do read it to keep it active) that took me so long to learn and then only some to cultivate.
Do you think that what you refer to as "the leaf" (that apparently you share with your vastly accomplished buddy) increases exponentially the rate at which you both acquire deep knowledge of an intellectually-challenging discipline, or, under its influence, does it just make you feel that it does?
"independent" (typo)
PS, Brett, another question or two:
What role do you think the "leaf" has in your and your buddy's astonishing abilities to absorb intellectually-subtle knowledge and comment so sagely on life's great existential questions without benefit of reading and study?
Does use of the "leaf" tend to make you and your buddy impatient with those of us who do opt to read books and study in order to learn things?
Do you recommend "the way of the leaf" to others seeking knowledge, wisdom, justice, love, and morality in this world?
Jacques - calm down!
I literally meant Leaf - as in, say, something that comes off of an oak tree. This one time, a shot needed a leaf in it, and I went to find one that was beautiful and fit the production designer's color scheme...
And yes, filmmaking can be an art.
I don't really see a reason you need to go on and on about your academic accomplishments - I was blithely referring to things like Dante, Virgil, Homer, etc. when I said 'ol' shit' - PLS is a great books program, J A, that focuses on Western and Catholic tradition.
I thought this would be the sort of program you would be positive about. I was trying to point out areas of agreement...
One of our films used to be available online - I'd have to check to see if it still is - but I'm not inclined to give you the password, given your dismissive attitude. Otherwise, they've played at a few small festivals (or are now in the submission process).
And yea, Jacques, I do read and study (less in the summer and fall, of course), I just don't like to brag about it, and it's not what I 'bring to the table' in our creative relationship.
Post a Comment