
I'm often amused by words. Lukewarm makes me laugh. Where does "luke" come from? The etymology isn't clear.
Pants and shorts are always plural, presumably because of the two legs. But shirt is never plural, even though it has two arms.
I love to listen to the way people talk. Shirley Sherrod said she didn't want to help a white farmer because she thought of all the black farmers who needed help. So she took the white farmer to a white lawyer, and the white lawyer wouldn't help. This surprised her. She thought all white people took care of all white people. She thought that was their job. It dawned on her that money is the real problem, not race. The lawyer wouldn't help the white farmer because he didn't have any money to pay for the lawyer's help, so she decided that it is class, and not race, that determines who will help whom.
Beck and Limbaugh have said Sherrod thinks like a Marxist, like a Maoist. She shifted her thinking from race as the root of all evil to class as the root of all evil. Beck and Limbaugh got it right, but they didn't go far enough.
In fact, it was her job to help the farmer. It wasn't the lawyer's job. Every person has a task that is assigned to them in the description of their position. They have to do that job. They don't have to do another job.
A lawyer gets paid to help people who have legal problems.
The farmer's problem wasn't legal.
Exactly what his problem was is never defined in the video.
At first Sherrod thinks it's a problem she shouldn't have to solve because she had made a pact with God that she would help only black people.
Then she makes a new pact or covenant that she should only help poor people.
She shifts from race to class. She considers herself a moral genius for making this paradigm shift, and attempts to share it with the NAACP group before whom she is speaking.
And because the lightbulb has come back on (class, not race) she is welcomed back into the Obama Administration with open arms. Obama sees the problems of America as basically one of redistribution of wealth. If he can achieve this, he can achieve justice. Sherrod is now on the same page as Obama, so she can continue in her job.
I think that Sherrod's task should have been to help all farmers (what exactly is her job description, and if it says, help all POOR farmers, irregardless of race, then how is POOR defined?). At first she said she would only help black farmers. Then it dawned on her that she should help all poor farmers. Is that correct? Wasn't it her job to help all farmers irregardless of race or class?
What exactly was her job description? It's odd that no one has tracked that down and presented it on the news.
Descriptions of what people are supposed to do often amaze me. I once worked at a college where the top administrator told me that as a professor I should be like a parent to every one of my students. I thought about the unworkability of this description. I suddenly had 150 children. I presumably had to wake them up, make sure they were fed, make sure they ate their breakfast, (would you like butter on your toast?), help them get dressed, pay for their textbooks, and help them with their homework, listen to their heartaches, and be a personal butler to each and every one. Isn't that what a parent does?
I perhaps have too strong a definition for fatherhood. A father is a personal valet to each of his children. Some people describe fathering a child as merely siring a child. So in a sense every child has a father. But I see a father as a kind of mentor-valet-coach. I teach language arts, math (ok, I do what I can in this area, and am increasingly stressed as my kids go toward middle school), and of course I am also a nutritionist. On weekends I hit baseballs to my kids, and play soccer with them, and take them swimming. I talk with them, and joke with them, and try to keep their spirits up.
I am supposed to do all this with 150 college students suddenly? Is that possible?
Meanwhile, the immigration law is going before a federal judge today (Susan Bolton). She is going to decide whether in lieu of the Obama Administration's total lack of support for tracking down illegal immigrants, whether the state of Arizona can do the job that the Federal government won't.
One side says it is "racist" to go after illegal immigrants. Therefore, illegal is legal, or at least better than being "racist."
The other side says this shows disregard for the "law" which makes the Feds criminals in that they are helping illegals to resist their own law.
What is the law supposed to do? What are the people who carry out the law supposed to do?
What is the job of the Federal Government? Can anyone provide a clear explanation?
From the smallest words like pants and shirt to bigger words, words that resolve questions of law and order, we depend on documents such as the U.S. Constitution and on the American Heritage dictionary. Words help us to understand our role, and define and delimit our actions.
I often wish people could be more clear. When I listen to BO, I never get any sense of clarity from him. I read his autobiography and just felt he was a genius at obfuscation. I read the letters he sends to my wife (who is a big fan of BO), and wonder at the language. The only thing I understand is that he wants our money, and that she sends it to him.
My wife believes in Obama!
I think he's a Marxist, who thinks through the race, gender, and class lens. He can't do anything else. He sat in Reverend Wright's church for twenty years. What else could he possibly know but what he learned there? Wright is a liberation theologist, which is heavily dependent on Marxism. However, Marxism never defined clear universal laws. They outlawed wealth. They tracked down and destroyed private wealth, and gobbled it up with the intent of redistributing it. In most cases they redistributed the wealth to themselves. Kim Jong-Il owns North Korea at this point. No one else owns anything.
Without the ability to articulate clear universal laws that protect private property, our nation is at risk of constantly going before lawyers and judges who will use the triumph of the will to define boundaries and to arrogate all wealth to themselves and theirs. Few judges believe any longer in a transcendent or universal truth or the notion of universal human rights. Now "will to power" is left to make decisions. If I'm on one side, and not the other, like Shirley Sherrod, I help my side, and neglect the other. A Democratic judge is a partisan now, many of whom do not apply the law, but want to make new precedents, and set the law, as Shirley Sherrod not only wanted to do her job, but do it with a twist, helping those she perceived as her in-group, throwing the others to white lawyers who she presumed would help them but who were in fact sharks waiting in the water to make a killing.
We need people who can think clearly and without bias when it comes to doing their job whether it's teacher or judge. We need people who can think clearly about Arizona's immigration law SB1070 which will be decided today in the Sandra Day O'Connor Federal Courthouse in Phoenix. We need to reinvent the term "American," and think about what it means, and who it will contain. Some think it contains anyone who wants to be an American. I don't think this can possibly be so.
Do we really want the whole world to move into America, simply because we have (had) good laws that protect human rights such as private property, life, liberty, and health? I don't, and I am aghast at the idiots who do.
I want tighter definitions. I still don't know why I am wearing "shorts," and a "shirt" but I hope to find out.
In what way are legs multiple, and arms singular? When we walk, legs move automatically as one. When we use our arms, perhaps, the arms have a much greater sense of autonomy -- I can do separate things with my arms, and with my hands, such as the typing I am doing now can operate the two hands not as one, but as two independent entities, as fingers reach asymmetrically for letters -- 120 words a minute.
Some Lutherans think our job is to help everyone, all day long, while others have a "focus on the family," and believe that our primary responsibility is at home. I'm always for the tighter definition. The tighter the definition the more functional. Loose definitions or overbroad definitions aren't functional, and so are almost worse than no definition.
87 comments:
I guess this is why your being a Lutheran confuses me: does Jesus advocate that our primary responsibility is our family? What did he walk this earth to preach?
I don't know much about Lutheranism, but I will tell you what is clear from the standpoint of Catholics and Evangelicals: to follow the instruction of Christ, who told us to treat the least among us no differently than we would treat one of our own.
Jesus did not say our primary responsibility is to our own family members. He said it was to the poor, to the oppressed, to the meek, to the ones that do not have a voice of their own.
In fact, He so strongly advocates for the least of us to be treated with compassion and assistance that this is what will decide the wicked from the saved on the day of the Final Judgment (Matthew 25:31-46).
I don't know if your view represents all Lutherans, but I will assume for at least a good percentage agree with you. I reserve benefit of the doubt to most Lutherans as they are closely associated with Presbyterians, and Presbyterians feel so strongly about Jesus' edict for compassion that the Presbyterian Churches of America voted to establish a wide resolution to refrain from any official engagement with Arizona, as well as encouraging followers of the faith to boycott the state. In that respect, Presbyterian leaders stand with Catholic and Evangelical leaders to live by the teachings of Christ above all else.
Cassie,
I would say that Luther himself separated law and gospel, and said that they are not identical.
He also said that we are not saints, and cannot be expected to be saints.
But a lot of this has been lost. Lots and lots of Lutherans are more like Calvinists now and would probably be on the same page with your Presbyterians (Calvin was a one-kingdom thinker, like Marx, while Luther was a two-kingdom thinker).
Even on this blog, I am probably the only two-kingdom thinker.
The rest are with you in some way or another.
We have all kinds of Christians here.
Most of them believe that the law should be identical with the gospel.
This is totally wrong in my estimation, but this is the basis of my disagreement with almost all of my readers.
I think law has to be followed. I believe that law keeps people from acting like pigs.
When one group acts like pigs, and another group acts like saints, the saints are patsies, and have their lives ruined by the pigs.
But like criminals and police, deciding who is a pig is always up for questioning.
The hippies (who to my mind were pigs in every respect, even living in Mud at Woodstock) thought the police were the pigs!
It's incredible!
I think the people of Arizona deserve to have law and order respected and restored. They shouldn't have to live with kidnappings, and having their tax dollars stolen, or misused by people who aren't legally in residence.
It's insane.
I hope today the judge will have a brain and rule for law and order.
If you mix the two kingdoms you have absolute chaos.
We are not saints, and so we cannot live with the gospel as our law.
That's Luther, at least as I understand him.
But then you probably think of me as a pig!
I'm not ordained, and am not speaking as an official spokesperson for the Lutheran church. I grew up Lutheran, but sit in the front, and do try to listen.
do you really believe that law and gospel are identical?
Are you ordained with this Presbyterian outfit that you name?
Kirby:
It's good to be as precise as possible (with words as with laws)without resorting to obfuscating legalistic quibbles. I've noticed lately the slovenly journalistic and blog-site practice of blurring the distinction between "disinterested" and "uninterested." A judge presiding over a given case must be disinterested, but by no means uninterested.
And it's also good to take adequate time to analyse and query evidence before grasping at conclusions. That's why the give-and-take of your blog site's exchanges at best help clarify and refine issues. In the Sherrod case the Obama administration (as well as the NAACP, one of whose spokesman smeared, then partially retracted, accusations of racism against Tea Party participants) yet again has showed hair-trigger precipitation in her firing on the basis of a internet-circulated short excerpt of a recorded speech given before an NAACP event. While like you I find what I know of her views thoroughly repugnant, I think her case merits administration and NAACP apologies. And that's not to exculpate conservative activist Andrew Breitbart altogether in the matter, even though he claims both that he'd not received the full tape at first and that his purpose was to show the NAACP audience not to be free from the charge of "racism" their organisation was pleased to inveigh against the Tea parties. I think too often this administration (like others, to be sure) wants to show they're adequately informed about an issue before they actually are to avoid charges of incompetency.
I read today an amusing and instructive piece entitled "Top Ten Racist Incidents of the Week" (subtitled "The Week in Racism") suggesting that it be "a standard category in the 24-hour news cycle": e.g., "Politics • Sports • Business • Accusations of Racism • Weather" (http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2010/07/22/top-ten-racist-incidents-of-the-week/). It's worth a read.
James, this is marvelous: and now, for the news in racism accusations.
First, the left charges the right.
Then, the right charges the left.
Finally, the center charges both, and both charge the center.
Cassie & Kirby,
Let me suggest that Kirby's particular take on Lutheranism is neither normative nor extreme. I too am a Lutheran, albeit one with a very different understanding of our faith. I think it is fair to say that my particular take on Lutheranism too is neither normative nor extreme.
Cassie asks how we are to treat the least among us. Kirby's reply is based on Luther's theory of vocation, which held that a Christian who lives an honorable Christian life of work and family is no less a Christian than a priest or monk. Luther was writing in opposition to medieval Catholic claims to the contrary. Let me add parenthetically that a dear, but absent, contributor to this blog is a Bendictine monk, whose faith and insight is deeply missed, especially on questions like this. My take is that Kirby hasn't really engaged your question. We have one faith, one Lord, one baptism. We are called to unity in Christ, not unity in denomination. And it is God's will that we reach out to all people, and that we care for all of his creation, including one another. Kirby's take that we may properly as Christians harden our hearts against the injustices and misfortunes of those outside of the immediate circle of family and congregation takes Luther to a place I do not believe he would have willing gone. Being of the Kingdom of God means being constantly vulnerable, constantly seeking justice, constantly centered in God, always in prayer. I'll note to Kirby that there is law in this, and Scripture could not be clearer.
And Kirby, of course as a Lutheran I acknowledge the distinction between law and gospel, but I do thing you've gotten a fundamental issue confused. The law has several purposes. It instructs us as to how God wants us to live. It condemns us for our inevitable failings, because we are creatures mired in sin. And to the extent that we live in communities of people who follow the law, we will ourselves benefit, and live long and well on the good earth that God has provided for us. But the law does not consist merely of the 10 commandments, although they are certainly part of the law. And (here is where you are confused) the law is neither necessary nor sufficient for our salvation. It is merely useful, and its blessings and condemnations are shared equally by the saved and the damned.
We are saved by faith through grace. This is the gospel, the good news that Jesus brought us. The Kingdom of God is at hand! Our challenge is whether we will be subjects of God's kingdom, or man's kingdom. Certainly Jesus did not come to abolish the law, as he himself said. Indeed, he was even more demanding. He modeled and demanded that we internalize the foundation upon which the law was erected: to love the Lord our God with all our hearts and souls and strength, and to love one another as we love ourselves.
So at the judgment, the question is not whether or not we followed the law, but whether or not we loved. Loved God. Loved one another. As ourselves.
Well, Stu, I disagree. I think we have to love the law more than we enable individuals who break the law.
I think mollycoddling criminals allows them to go on, and it only produces more lawlessness.
Luther saw that we are fallen, and that without the law, all would be lost.
He was an Augustinian, and saw that there are two kingdoms.
It is wrong to not separate them clearly and fully, but I can see how they could easily be confused, and how some sects could make them into a single whole.
Luther, however, said that it was lawful to serve as a hangman.
It is lawful to serve as a soldier.
It is lawless to allow the lawless to run amok.
Our sympathy should be for Arizonans who have called again and again for law and order to be restored, only to have the anointed one argue that the law of love of neighbor is the only law he would allow, and to have his vice president actually applaud the leader of an invading country.
Democrats are on the side of mounting chaos because they cannot distinguish between law and love.
Republicans can do this.
The governor of Arizona can do it. I'm hoping Judge bolton is capable of doing it.
Charity begins at home. We ought to rescue our fellow citizens of Arizona. They are being overrun.
If you want to let a bunch of illegal people into your house and enable them to hurt your children and steal your resources, fine, but you shouldn't wish it on your neighbors in Arizona.
It's shameless, it's confusing, and it's wrong.
Luther allowed the Anabaptists to be slaughtered because they were breeding similar kinds of lawlessness which was just going to get everyone killed.
Without the ten commandments nothing will survive.
You guys are nuts and should get a clue.
The kingdom of God is infinite.
This kingdom is finite, and our resources in it are finite. Law is a gift -- like marriage, and like government -- it is something that God gave us to help us after the collapse of the Fall.
You people think you're still in paradise.
And if you think that, the world will become hell. It already is for Arizonans.
Insist on the law. Insist on finitude and decency.
I wish Picklesworth or JEP or some actual Lutheran pastor would weigh in.
These are enormous issues, and they go right to the heart of not only theological mistakes, and political mistakes, which if left to run rampant will ruin our country, but they will also destroy us personally, and leave our cities in enormous pain.
Without the gift of law, beginning with the norm of a single, monogamous, marriage between man and woman, and continuing from there to the clarity of a government that can acknowledge its finitude, we can't continue to even have communities.
Everything will be lost.
Kirby,
There is far to much in this note to respond to. Sherrod is a deeply decent human being, who overcame prejudice (her father was murdered by white racists). You, who cite family as our primary responsibility, should appreciate as much as anyone what this involves.
But let me take up a simpler, yet more fundamental and more central question.
What is the job of the Federal Government? Can anyone provide a clear explanation?
There is an answer. You should know this.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Point of fact: HCR serves to establish justice, and to promote the general welfare. If it lives up to its promises, it will indeed secure blessings of liberty upon us and our posterity. (My daughter will again be eligible for coverage under my group plan, alleluia!)
Your serve, sir.
Stu, having someone killed could skew your perspective. And perhaps it has skewed the perspective of Arizonans to see their friends and neighbors killed and kidnapped, and to see the cartels take over Tuscon.
How bad is it down there?
However, in spite of everything, there is law. Law is finally all there is. Sherrod should be deeply ashamed she didn't follow the law.
Glenn Beck apparently forgave her this evening.
My dad was cut up in a mugging in a train station in Philadelphia in the 1960s. Two hoods (black). But he was also sewn back together by a black doctor at Temple.
You have to try to see the good, too. To her credit, in the video that we see, Sherrod struggles with this problem. She says that there are good white lawyers, and bad black ones who nickle and dime you to death, as she put it.
She's struggling, as we all are.
The people of Arizona are also struggling.
The people of Mexico who are here illegally are struggling.
But to simply talk about grace and such is poppycock. You have to talk about law.
Grace doesn't draw lines or give us any realistic sense of what should be done. Grace is infinite, and doesn't even countenance finitude.
Arizona is non-functional.
The real world cannot function in the face of the infinite.
We have to realize that our feet touch the ground.
Sherrod did not understand her job. Obama doesn't understand his job.
They should both be out of office.
We need functional people in government who understand how to protect us, and how to think within rules, and how to put the rule of law above personal prejudices, or biased power grabs, of whatever kind.
If people can't do this, they ought to resign.
Law isn't everything. It's necessary, even if it isn't sufficient. Without it, there is nothing that can bind a community together.
Religion can't do this. It used to be able to do it, but now there are too many communists and crypto-communists among us who want to tear down all understanding of religion, in order to let all hell loose.
They are only enabled by enablers who will not stand up for law, as hard and as difficult and as painful as it is to do that.
I won't write more tonight, but I will try to let comments through once more around midnight.
Kirby,
Well, Stu, I disagree. I think we have to love the law more than we enable individuals who break the law.
Let me suggest, in love and charity, that you are a pre-Bonhoeffer Lutheran. And I am a post-Bonhoeffer Lutheran. The two lived in radically different times. In Luther's era, the state was his sole hope and protector in a era of excess by the (RC) church. In Bonhoeffer's era, the church as his sole hope and protector in an era of excess by the state.
You claim to be a two-kingdoms thinker, but it seems to me that you're really not. You put too much, much too much, emphasis on the kingdom of the sword. If you're going to talk about the distinction between law and gospel, you can't as a Lutheran in good faith conclude your discussion with the law absent gospel. I've acknowledged that the law is useful, and that God intends it for our benefit. Tell me, Kirby, what is the gospel, and what is its purpose?
Kirby,
Sherrod. OK.
Andrew Brietbart. I think it has been well established at this time that Brietbart edited a video of Sherrod that portrayed her as something that she wasn't. In short, Brietbart is lying, manipulative scum, which was already well established in the ACORN incidents, and FOX was more informed by its prejudices than its experience in trusting in the integrity of his videos.
Will you denounce Brietbart for his blatant manipulations, which twist the truth into lies?
And perhaps it has skewed the perspective of Arizonans to see their friends and neighbors killed and kidnapped, and to see the cartels take over Tuscon.
Well, it would if this was what was actually happening. The truth is more elusive, and certainly not so simple. As it turns out, the primary suspect in the murder of the Arizona rancher whose dead spurred the the law may well have been an American.
Sherrod should be deeply ashamed she didn't follow the law.
How so? Her responsibility was to ensure that the farmer had legal representation. She was not herself a lawyer, her role was more as broker. She make an initial, and plausible, connection. But it didn't work out. Once she realized this, she made another connection, which did. It is incidental that the initial connection was to a white lawyer, who didn't give a damn, and that the the subsequent, and successful, connection, was to a black lawyer who did. She did her job! She followed the law, and indeed went the extra mile. Would it kill you to acknowledge this? Even Beck acknowledges this -- there was no forgiveness, but rather an acknowledgement of an active virtue. Get a clue!
There is much more video by now of Sherrod. She expresses dismay that a white man bought a black man's land. She has this perspective that it's a football game. I realize I am myself being gamed to some extent. The media outfits all have an agenda, and as James pointed out, it's all about throwing grenades at this point. The biggest grenade is race.
Sherrod has been turned into a grenade.
But Breitbart only did it in response to the constant race-baiting of the BO administration.
We will have a lot more of this in the years ahead. I think at some point it will become a bromide (James suggest it become a regular news segment).
As for law, I think that that is all that there is that we can count on.
The gospel, as I see it, is about the world to come. None of it, and nothing in it, is about this world.
It's a promise, that gives us hope.
But we have to be extremely patient. Americans, in general, aren't terribly patient.
Bonhoeffer? I'm not sure what he accomplished. His organization got 12 Jews out of Germany.
They failed to snuff Hitler.
I don't see how Germany, however, applies to the US.
Germany is another whole ball of wax, and one that I for one do not well understand. Kafka was a German writer in the Sudetenland, and later in Berlin. The picture he painted of his era is one in which the law had been abandoned.
We have to remember that there are two great gifts that God gave us. One is the ten commandments that tell us how to live in this world. God handed that gift to Moses.
The other gift was Christ Himself.
Remember, while the commandments WERE for ruling ourselves in this world, Christ explicitly said, "My kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD."
We have to be patient, and meanwhile, follow the rules of the commandments which are still the basis of American laws in spite of all the communists, the crypto-communists, and the courts packed with secularists who want to get rid of the ten commandments and who have been in the ascendancy since poor Roosevelt and his twisted mind got in and started to turn America into a kommunist kountry that knows no God.
Kirby,
The gospel, as I see it, is about the world to come. None of it, and nothing in it, is about this world.
So, you are by your own admission not a two kingdoms thinker. The Kingdom of God is at hand! No merely in the here-after, but in the here-and-now...
Bonhoeffer? I'm not sure what he accomplished.
Quite a lot, actually. You should read what he's written. His "Ethics" isn't easy, but then what of real value is? I commend it, to you of all people. I'm a fan of "Life Together." Many say that his best work is "Discipleship," which I've not yet read. But I will. As it is, I'm starting from the beginning. Sanctorum Communio.
They failed to snuff Hitler.
But they tried. And with ordinary luck, they'd have succeeded. Twice. cf., Metaxas, please. I really do recommend it.
I don't see how Germany, however, applies to the US.
It's been said, "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." You do. Indeed, your entire presentation here assumes that BHO represents a quasi-Hitlerian take over of a democratic republic. You are wrong, but it would do you some good to consider what might be required of you if you are right.
We have to remember that there are two great gifts that God gave us. One is the ten commandments that tell us how to live in this world. God handed that gift to Moses.
The other gift was Christ Himself.
I can only agree. Law and Gospel. But it seem to me that your understanding of gospel is deficient, and a concomitant of this deficiency is an overreliance on the letter of the law, and a failure to understand its foundations.
Remember, while the commandments WERE for ruling ourselves in this world, Christ explicitly said, "My kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD."
True. But he did not say that is it is not IN this world. Indeed, he said, "it is near." Clearly in this, referring to himself. In the world. The Kingdom of God is of God, not of man, and so not of this world. But it is in this world, and I reiterate, the question for us is will we be subjects of God, or of man? If you answer God, where then is his kingdom? Obviously, you're in it, but neither of us are in heaven yet.
We have to be patient, and meanwhile, follow the rules of the commandments which are still the basis of American laws in spite of all the communists, the crypto-communists, and the courts packed with secularists who want to get rid of the ten commandments and who have been in the ascendancy since poor Roosevelt and his twisted mind got in and started to turn America into a kommunist kountry that knows no God.
Remember, the Roosevelt I cited in the earlier thread, and so the Roosevelt of context, was Teddy, not Franklin. You know, the Roosevelt who wanted univeral health care.
I'm a two-kingdom thinker. :)
Concerning this discussion:
Go back to the Small Catechism: "As the head of the household is to teach his family."
Remember the Biblically consistent pattern: God works with individuals, then with their families, then expands it out from there to larger groups. Even in Acts 2 this pattern is repeated: "This promise is for *you* and for *your children* and for *those who are far off.*
Also, St Paul makes it clear that one who does not care for his own immediate family is worse than an unbeliever.
The responsibility of the state in scripture is to bear the sword. As one of the founding fathers said, "Government is force." As such, it must be carefully used and restrained.
Interesting "pre-post" discussion. Don't care. Seriously. As the newly elected LCMS president said in a recent interview: "to the scirptures, to the scriptures, to the scriptures we must go."
Individual. Family. Spread out from there (church/state).
Government's duty is to bear the sword.
Additionally, when the church is involved in mercy, certain stipulations were to apply: St Paul noted that younger widows should remarry rather than taking money from the church and also told the Thessalonians that the lazy didn't qualify for "church food stamps"---again, knowing when to apply law and when to apply gospel. However, these examples apply to one of those larger groups, the "called out assembly" of the church, and not to the state.
Randy Keyes
stu, I do think the muckraking conservative Andrew Breitbart erred in not anticipating what might befall Shirley Sherrod as a result of his very partial airing (not “editing”) of Sherrod's address to the NAACP. That's of course not to agree with Sherrod that his website should be shut down "for the betterment of the country." In this she seems to share the sadly misguided view of some liberal politicians that the federal government should censor conservative speech. Nor is it to agree with her that Breitbart’s target was her personally and not the NAACP audience in order to counter NAACP officials’ unproved claims that Tea Parties in general harbour and encourage racists.
However, greater is the responsibility of the NAACP officials who rashly condemned her and even greater the Obama administration's Agriculture Secretary Vilsack for firing her on the basis of insufficient knowledge of her whole speech, which seems to reveal, as Kirby says, that she seems to have traded in racial resentment for class resentment. And that's not to agree with Sherrod that we know the White House itself ordered her firing.
Yes, Breitbart should have properly contextualised the excerpt before he aired it. But again, that's not to agree with Sherrod’s claims that Breitbart is a racist, Fox News is racist, opposition to ObamaCare is racist, Republicans in general are racists, etc.
First off, to James and Randy: thanks very much for your comments. They helped clarify things a LOT.
As Randy says, the individual is first in Christianity. In Marxist thought, it's a class, or a race, or a sex. These make no sense to me at all. Sherrod is a Marxist, since she thinks through those gigantic groupings.
Obama, too.
And this notion that James brings up: that we ought to simply declare someone a racist, is a vicious conversation-ender, and if we use that logic, then we can ourselves easily get snared in it, as happened to Sherrod herself, and as has happened to Obama himself (Crowley).
If we think instead about individuals, as MLK suggested, we are on safer ground. But we should be wary of going too far in terms of condemning others, esp. with spurious charges. It's not against the law to be a racist.
It IS AGAINST the law to use racial criteria to not do your job. Sherrod admits she did this. And she apparently did it quite often (the one case she mentions is buttressed by her disdain for other whites who bought black land). She has a pattern of doing her job with a partiality unbecoming her office.
Does it mean she should resign?
I think yes.
Glenn Beck says no, let's forgive her, but Beck gets all mushy.
There are two sleights of hand in which Stu extends nearness to further his aims. Let's examine those.
In one, Christ says the kingdom of God is AT HAND. This means nearness.
But nearness, in terms of infinity, is still impossibly far. We've wait 2000 years, and aren't there yet. Christ, as God, has a larger time scale than we have as humans. He also has a larger sense of distance. When he says something is near, this might mean it's only ten trillion miles away.
We have to listen closely to what Christ said and interpret it narrowly, rather than broadly.
When he says "the poor will always be with us," he means just that. That in this kingdom there is NEVER going to be a time in which equality is going to happen. For whatever reason, the poor will always be with us.
Communists like Cassie think that isn't fair. That we should redistribute everything according to a universal scheme of equality which is not called for in law, and which is counterindicated by law. She wants to push her mushy understanding of the Gospel into the place of the law.
She wants to wring the necks of anyone who doesn't agree, and she cites her sect as being in agreement with Catholics and Presbyterians.
But I'm not sure there is any unanimity with regard to a Christian response to the Arizona law. The mushy-minded who think God is with us right now, want us to suspend law, and introduce the Gospel.
But that's not what the government should do. Government can't do this. As Randy says, the government is the sword. It must uphold the law.
It can't uphold the gospel!
OMG, as they say.
In human terms, the gospel is impossibly far away, while what we have is the law. Let's not merge them through any sleight of hand.
Stu then performs another feat. He argues that since Obama attempts to use Obamacare as some kind of crummy mush-minded syrupy gospel song in which all are equal, and the poor disappear (as does the treasury), and since the Nazis did something similar with all their volk programs, then Obama is Hitler, and I should have to pop Obama.
But again the two are trillions of miles apart. First off, I have stated over and over that I think Obama is a good but confused man. He takes care of his children, and has a minimal notion of what it means to be a dad (spend "a few minutes a day" with them).
Secondly, Hitler was committing genocide against various populations. Jews, of course, but also gypsies, and some others (homosexuals).
Since Hitler was the only law in Germany, he had to be removed.
Obama has targeted the rich, and intends to redistribute their income and destroy American business. But he hasn't started to collectivize, or to put the wealthy into concentration camps. He's also beginning to put stars on the obese, with a notion perhaps in the future that he will use Obamacare to round them up, and put them in fat farms, to work off their jiggling.
Stu then performs another tricky dance step (feat). He argues that since Obama attempts to use Obamacare as some kind of crummy mush-minded syrupy gospel song in which all are equal, and the poor disappear (as does the treasury), and since the Nazis did something similar with all their volk programs, then Obama is Hitler, and I should have to pop Obama.
But again the two are trillions of miles apart. First off, I have stated over and over that I think Obama is a good but confused man. He takes care of his children, and has a minimal notion of what it means to be a dad (spend "a few minutes a day" with them). Hitler was a bad man, and a bad dad. He never said that the men of Germany should spend time with their kids. He sent them off to endless battles and got them all killed (please don't compare W., who only got 4000 or so killed, with the millions that Hitler got killed).
Secondly, Hitler was committing genocide against various populations. Jews, of course, but also gypsies, and some others (homosexuals). He had a list of which populations he was going to kill, and which he was going to enslave. Insofar as I know, Obama is on the side of human rights for one and all (he's against private property rights for the wealthy, but he doesn't intend to actually kill them, insofar as I know).
Since Hitler was the only law in Germany, he had to be removed.
We still have one other legal party in the US, and chances are that Obama and his krazy kousins will be voted out in November, and that they will actually leave their offices.
Obama has targeted the rich, and intends to redistribute their income and destroy American business. But he hasn't started to collectivize, or to put the wealthy into concentration camps. He's also beginning to put stars on the obese, with a notion perhaps in the future that he will use Obamacare to round them up, and put them in fat farms, to work off their jiggling upper bodies.
But he hasn't managed to actually achieve this yet. If he does, then I think even then it won't necessarily be bad, because he's not meaning to KILL the fatsos among us, but just work off their blubber, which will actually EXTEND their lives, and make them slim and gorgeous, as he and his wife are slim and gorgeous (although he cheats because he smokes, which hastens the metabolism).
Obama's notions are that he knows what's good for us, and will ram through certain health measures that will be good for us. I say good for him in terms of knocking some fat off the blubberbutts. That's fine, even if he puts them into treadmill workhouses, and uses their production to light the cities.
I'm for that.
But I think he has exactly the opposite of Hitler's notion which was to bury the Jews and the gypsies and the homosexuals (all of these people and all legal minorities should have the same basic civil rights).
The problem with this fat farm idea which I sense is forming in the jello of Obama's "mind" is that he's trying to get us to have one social goal. That, in essence, IS COLLECTIVISM.
the goal itself is salubrious, but the mechanism that he will put in place to achieve might not be.
Once it begins, it's difficult to stop. Already the children are coming home with their BMI reports in Massachusetts. How far off are the work camps?
Once Obama gets us to agree to one social goal, totalitarianism is right behind it.
But Obama doesn't know this. He's just naive. He's not evil.
Obama wants to make us into industrial animals on a treadmill of health, overseen by a benevolent dictatorship pinching our hips and checking our BMI.
This doesn't affect me, because I am slender (166 on a 5'10" frame).
Stu, GM, John Hanson, Emmy, and others, may be carted off, but I will stick with my 30 day shred, and probably get to keep my day job. It will just be a little lonely here at LS waiting for you guys to meet the state's fitness goals.
And the problem is that once the fat farms are started, what other kinds of reeducation will be introduced? Anyone who is a Fox News watcher may have to go to some camp until they learn to prefer CNN, or MSNBC.
Maybe anyone who uses the term "Madcow," will have to relearn their priorities, and start to sieg heil to Teeth Doberman.
Obama doesn't see any of this. He's naive, and is basically a good man (previous posts have proclaimed OBAMA NO NERO).
We need to stand for plurality of social goals, for competition, against any kind of monopolies whether governmental or social. We especially need to fight against the ignorant Cassies of the world who think everyone should be united around social goals, so that there can be unanimity.
As long as there is competition, rancor, and disagreement, our country is still working. don't let naive Cassie wreck it. She has no brain! This doesn't mean that she is evil, any more than it means that Obama is evil.
They just haven't read their history lessons, and so are dooming us to repetition.
It may be ultimately that a few of you will never return from the fat farms. GM and Emmy have said that they have actual chemical imbalances or something that make them bigger. That, and their rightist stances, may make them unfit enough to be sentenced by the death panels of Obamacare.
But perhaps Obamacare will have loopholes.
At any rate, even if they are permitted to return from the work camps, it may be that bloggers like myself have been silenced by then, only to be replaced by bloggers like Ron silliman.
But Silliman is himself rather hefty (even for a lefty), and may have to go off to a work camp until he ceases to jiggle.
Who knows? Once these apparatuses are put in place, it's hard to know who will be taken off into them and forced to get the lard off, or forced to cowtow to Madcow?
The point is to generate awareness that uniformity of opinion is itself dangerous, and the attempts to manufacture it, as Cassie does in her mad first post, are themselves terrifyingly dangerous.
No two sane people can ever possibly agree on anything. Two people nodding in agreement are therefore insane. Don't you agree?
I'm as marxist, communist, collectivist, redistributionist as they come, and I talk to a lot of marxists, communists, "crypto-communists", arch-secularists, anarchists, rich-haters, etc. online and IRL, from here and around the world.
I haven't met any one from such groups willing to claim Obama as one of theirs. Rather, the great majority of the "Far Left" despise his marketing tricks, his lies, his servitude to big corporations and his perpetuation of human rights abuses on a global scale through the military and intelligence services.
Also, there are very few of us, even online. We don't influence anything, least of all in big-media-conglomerates-USA.
Just a little reality check, M. Olson.
Kirby,
Whoa. You've just put a lot of things in my mouth that I never said, implied, or believe. I don't think you're intended to misrepresent me, so much as you're just confused.
So let's take this bit by bit.
First, I don't know how you can reconcile biblical literalism with an exegesis whereby Jesus's simple "at hand" gets twisted into "maybe only ten trillion miles."
When Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is at hand," this is simply his parabolic way of saying, "Dudes, God is king, and he works through me. Time to get with the program." The challenge to us is to be subjects to God, and to let God work through us. If we do, the kingdom of God will be with us, too. Of course, we are fallen beings, and so even as we grasp the kingdom with one hand, we're letting it go with the other. But the kingdom of God is always erupting in the world. It is not just our future hope, dude.
Is Cassie communist? I see no evidence of this in her post, and a quick Google search does not reveal any others. Her profile is private. I am concerned that your tendency to make such hyperbolic accusations is going to drive people away. She does not argue for redistribution by government, but instead argues that we as Christians have an obligation to help the poor, the oppressed, the meek. This is the very opposite of your claim.
As for HCR, I certainly did not make the argument you've put in my mouth, nor did I ever equate Hitler with Obama in any way.
As for the idea that the obese should be sent off to concentration camps, I have no idea where this came from. I do recall you saying that you thought that the benefits of HCR ought to be restricted to those who don't wilfully do things that increase their health risk, and that you enumerated obesity as such a discretionary, disqualifying risk. It seems to me that somewhere between this idea of yours, and Mrs. Obama's efforts to combat childhood obesity, you've jumped the shark. In short, you're projecting insane ideas of your own onto Obama, and then reacting to them as if they were his thoughts.
Separately, I offer you congratulations for making it down to 166. Still a bit short of your goal of 159, but losing weight isn't easy. I'm down to 181, which has taken a heck of a lot of exercise and dietary discipline, since my starting point (at Lent) was around 200.
I assume that everyone is a communist until proven otherwise, it's true, and if not communist, then crypto-communist, my second favorite term.
I think by now most people are without realizing it, because of the way in which the educational system has funneled them toward redistributionist thinking based on race, gender and class.
Anyone Democrat is also a communist. If you check the CPUSA platform and compare it to the Democrat platform, they're identical.
They didn't used to be be.
Now they are.
Stu, this is a lot of stitching, and I don't know if I have time yet to clarify all the reasons why I thought as I did.
We are cleaning up the house to get ready to go to a water park tomorrow, and I have to get cracking. Then I am off the computer until around midnight, but might get one little peek at about 8 pm.
Probably only James could follow my logic.
If Picklesworth was around he could too and moreover could present my thought in three tight sentences that would put me to shame. Consolidation is his game.
What happened to that guy?
At any rate, I didn't mean to change or demean your thinking, Stu. I probably just read you differently than you intended.
Thanks for sticking up for Cassie.
I had fun demeaning her.
I hate the people who show up here without a real name or place, lob a grenade, and disappear.
I can never figure out what or who they are, and I felt dismissed by her post: it was the usual "you are with us or you are against us," post, and I hate those.
I assert again: no two people can ever really agree on anything.
Can we at least agree on this?
Meanwhile, I think it is necessary to sow as much confusion as possible while opening debate at every level.
Congrats on the losing weight, Stu.
180 isn't bad. I don't know how tell you are, but if you're 5'10" then the BMI for normal should begin at about 174 at the top end for you, and go down to about 133.
If you can fit into normal, you will avoid the obesity death panels.
The death panels are not just something Obama and his wife are concocting. For us, they are quite real: men over fifty are more vulnerable to heart attacks. Death panels are a real interior reality for us.
Made up of corpuscles.
I'm pretty sure Obama is going to shape this coiuntry up much as Kennedy did in his day. I think it might be one thing I'd enjoy, especially if he wasn't too systematic about it.
Systems terrify me.
As you have probably realized, I have no system. I just let everything fly, held together loosely by two kingdoms, and by the notion of surrealism (reality as that which flies between two distant planes -- in this case between the world of the real objects around us, and that of the great ideals some trillions of miles away, hidden in some other dimension which is so close and yet so far.)
GM, do you think the monarchies were better? King George III? King Ludwig? The Czars? Hirohito?
As conservatives, GM and JADL both suffer from 'it usedta be betta'-itis.
Liberals tend to have 'it's betta over thera'-dynia.
Conservatives think the past was better - it wasn't. It sucked. Quality of life, expectancy of life, and violence were all at much worse levels.
Liberals tend to think non-Western countries are better. This is probably even more stupider, since they could just Go to India and if they had half a brain realize that while the poverty of others might make for a culturally interesting visit, it would actually suck to be From there.
I used to think it might have been fun to live during the "fin-de-siecle" in Paris, or during the early Edwardian era, but you stlll have the lack of dentistry, and enormous class barriers, and awful pollution of air and water in the cities. Not to speak of disease.
At my present age (62) I'd certainly have lost my teeth by now, have a few nasty warts, probably be 6 inches shorter (not as much milk), and possibly even have some repulsive venereal disease to boot. Even some of my cultural heroes had these things. People didn't smile as much then, because the didn't want to show their gaps and gums!
That's also one reason why youth has traditionally been idolized--the ravages of age were once much more potent moderators of quality of life. Ah innocence!
In order for my previous comment not to appear like the anonymous sniping that you refer to, M. Olson, I invite you to read a few blogs by the "Far Left", in order to acclimate you to its way of thinking.
You'll be surprised to witness the vast body of well-documented criticism being addressed to Obama, the current administration, and the American experiment as a whole. The better part of those writers' scorn goes to liberal and progressive opinion-makers who blithely ignore our wars of aggression and our deepening social inequalities in order to punch the Republican du jour.
Empire Burlesque
http://www.chris-floyd.com/
TomDispatch
http://www.tomdispatch.com/
Arthur Silber
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/
Who is IOZ?
http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/
There are many others, I'm sure you know, but they're either too fringe, or too academic, for my purpose here.
We can imagine times more romantic elsewhere, I suppose, as well as places, but there's no place like home, right?
We do have new diseases. Lyme's is a very significant new disease affecting 1% of the population. They don't have much of a corporate sensibility yet, and so Lyme Activists are still rare.
AIDS is hard to get, and you have to go all out to get it, apparently, but once you have it, you die.
Syphilis and gonorrhea acted more slowly and just rotted your nose before going into a dormant period that might last thirty years.
In Baltimore I once went into the museum of public works, and they had actual pipes from the 1890s. It was a shock. The pipes were made of wood (they had still not perfected steel pipes), and the same poops were used to eliminate waste and to drink from.
I guess they had only an inkling of hygiene and the notion of bacteria.
We're still in a primitive state in terms of understanding the effects of religion and culture. Some people think they are bad, and we should only use reason.
That's what Stalin was using, after all.
And look at the wonders of the USSR under Stalin!
They built good tanks, good jets, and gulags that couldn't be topped.
We do need to use reason to understand the laws of nature, and the laws of God, and to somehow bring them close together, so that they are both reasonable, and inspired.
Mathmos, I'll try to get through your links this week.
I used to be fairly familiar with the far left, I suppose.
From my present perch, Obama strikes me as far left.
Today on Fox a state trooper came on. He said not only does Obama have a law suit against Arizona, but there is a lawsuit against any state trooper who makes a mistake that is wending its way through the court system.
Shouldn't Obama be impeached for failure to uphold the oath that he took that swore to protect the Constitution?
What are the main litany of complaints by the far left against BO?
You mentioned wars of aggression. I suppose that would mean Afghanistan. But didn't they strike first?
Can you see the charitableness of getting their women out of the burkhas and the imposed silence, and into the realm of the educated, into the realm of those with rights to speak, and to think?
I saw that as W.'s central concern.
The far left believes in something called multiculturalism.
This presumbably doesn't extend to Nazism, so why should it extend to the Taliban, who are far worse in terms of how they regard human rights such as the right to educate oneself.
Freedom of inquiry ought to be a human right.
I know the far left often prefers brainwashing and so might see what the Taliban does as something quite similar, and therefore, acceptable, but I wouldn't know.
Theory: Obama is far left, and the far left likes the Taliban.
Reality: Obama more than doubled our troops levels in Afghanistan during his first year in office to kick ye' ol' Taliban's ass.
Kirby's ability to hold two beliefs at once which necessarily contradict each other: Amazing.
I think BO is confused on the Afghanistan issue, and I think this is one of the far left's complaints about him.
He apparently wants to win, but what that would mean is anybody's guess. Does it mean that the Taliban is decimated, and can no longer mount any kind of offensive?
Does it mean that women can read?
I honestly don't know what it means.
I don't think BO knows either. That situation is one that he inherited. I think that because it presents a conflict between his basic value system, he has a road block about how to proceed.
On the one hand, he is helping women, because they can be full agents under the US imposed system: they can read and write, and go to school, and be doctors, lawyers, and members of the government.
Some 9 million women and girls are in school in Afghanistan since we entered the picture.
BO must like that.
But on the other hand at least one giant branch of the far left also believes that there are no universal standards, and that each culture should be able to set its own standards (the only culture they won't allow is American Protestantism or Catholicism, which is equated with Nazism for reasons that make a little bit of sense here and there but which I won't spell out here, since I regard this thinking as poppycock).
And so, BO feels somewhat abashed that here is a westerner imposing western standards on a barbaric Eastern country.
W. used the notion of self-defense. but BO can't use that notion. He has to be selfless, since he's a leftist. He can't have any notion of his own priorities. He can only be a saint.
Which means his hands are tied by the left, and is why he keeps getting right crosses to the head, which will ultimately put him out of commission.
I feel sorry for the left. They have a non-functional thought process that makes them unable to actually achieve anything much except the murder of babies.
It's the darnedest thing I've ever seen.
When I was still in the left years back (before I started living the life of O'Reilly), I used to think that human rights, etc., was on the side of the left.
Now I see human rights as having shifted toward the conservatives. It is they who care about women's rights in Afghanistan and Iraq, and they who raise a fuss about what happened to Monica or what is happening to women in Islamic countries who are stoned to death for adultery while the men walk.
It's an odd sea change which has left the left stuck in the muddy thought of a non-functional ideology in which sainthood is their only clear option. Since we can't be saints, it only leaves the left stuck at some high tide of self-righteousness.
One wonders.
I think BO is confused on the Afghanistan issue, and I think this is one of the far left's complaints about him.
He apparently wants to win, but what that would mean is anybody's guess. Does it mean that the Taliban is decimated, and can no longer mount any kind of offensive?
Does it mean that women can read?
I honestly don't know what it means.
I don't think BO knows either. That situation is one that he inherited. I think that because it presents a conflict between his basic value system, he has a road block about how to proceed.
On the one hand, he is helping women, because they can be full agents under the US imposed system: they can read and write, and go to school, and be doctors, lawyers, and members of the government.
Some 9 million women and girls are in school in Afghanistan since we entered the picture.
BO must like that.
But on the other hand at least one giant branch of the far left also believes that there are no universal standards, and that each culture should be able to set its own standards (the only culture they won't allow is American Protestantism or Catholicism, which is equated with Nazism for reasons that make a little bit of sense here and there but which I won't spell out here, since I regard this thinking as poppycock).
And so, BO feels somewhat abashed that here is a westerner imposing western standards on a barbaric Eastern country.
W. used the notion of self-defense. but BO can't use that notion. He has to be selfless, since he's a leftist. He can't have any notion of his own priorities. He can only be a saint.
Which means his hands are tied by the left, and is why he keeps getting right crosses to the head, which will ultimately put him out of commission.
I feel sorry for the left. They have a non-functional thought process that makes them unable to actually achieve anything much except the murder of babies.
It's the darnedest thing I've ever seen.
When I was still in the left years back (before I started living the life of O'Reilly), I used to think that human rights, etc., was on the side of the left.
Now I see human rights as having shifted toward the conservatives. It is they who care about women's rights in Afghanistan and Iraq, and they who raise a fuss about what happened to Monica or what is happening to women in Islamic countries who are stoned to death for adultery while the men walk.
It's an odd sea change which has left the left stuck in the muddy thought of a non-functional ideology in which sainthood is their only clear option. Since we can't be saints, it only leaves the left stuck at some high tide of self-righteousness.
One wonders.
I think BO is confused on the Afghanistan issue, and I think this is one of the far left's complaints about him.
He apparently wants to win, but what that would mean is anybody's guess. Does it mean that the Taliban is decimated, and can no longer mount any kind of offensive?
Does it mean that women can read?
I honestly don't know what it means.
I don't think BO knows either. That situation is one that he inherited. I think that because it presents a conflict between his basic value system, he has a road block about how to proceed.
On the one hand, he is helping women, because they can be full agents under the US imposed system: they can read and write, and go to school, and be doctors, lawyers, and members of the government.
Some 9 million women and girls are in school in Afghanistan since we entered the picture.
BO must like that.
But on the other hand at least one giant branch of the far left also believes that there are no universal standards, and that each culture should be able to set its own standards (the only culture they won't allow is American Protestantism or Catholicism, which is equated with Nazism for reasons that make a little bit of sense here and there but which I won't spell out here, since I regard this thinking as poppycock).
And so, BO feels somewhat abashed that here is a westerner imposing western standards on a barbaric Eastern country.
W. used the notion of self-defense. but BO can't use that notion. He has to be selfless, since he's a leftist. He can't have any notion of his own priorities. He can only be a saint.
Which means his hands are tied by the left, and is why he keeps getting right crosses to the head, which will ultimately put him out of commission.
I feel sorry for the left. They have a non-functional thought process that makes them unable to actually achieve anything much except the murder of babies.
It's the darnedest thing I've ever seen.
When I was still in the left years back (before I started living the life of O'Reilly), I used to think that human rights, etc., was on the side of the left.
Now I see human rights as having shifted toward the conservatives. It is they who care about women's rights in Afghanistan and Iraq, and they who raise a fuss about what happened to Monica or what is happening to women in Islamic countries who are stoned to death for adultery while the men walk.
It's an odd sea change which has left the left stuck in the muddy thought of a non-functional ideology in which sainthood is their only clear option. Since we can't be saints, it only leaves the left stuck at some high tide of self-righteousness.
One wonders.
Though I suspect we probably won't even agree on the baseline reality our arguments will depend on, I welcome the opportunity to discuss this 'Far Left' further.
Only, I'm at work right now. So this will have to wait a bit.
Protestant work ethics and all that.
As a starting point however, if Obama is Far Left according to you, he's solidly right-wing according to my point of view, so you better read 'Far Far Left' whenever I'm referring to the political positions I espouse as 'Far Left'.
That's fine. I like discussions, and if I can learn something new, I love them. You are at least polite. That's a fine thing in and of itself. So, I'm all ears once you get a moment from the economics of your situation. what kind of work do you do, praytell?
M. Olson, I invite you to read the blogs I linked in a previous comment. They indicate quite clearly that the real point of contention for the anti-war Left is the unmitigated disaster that the invasions have visited upon Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan's civilian population. No one I read or talk to ever hinted at multiculturalism as a real argument against the war.
Consider these facts :
" The logs detail, in sometimes harrowing vignettes, the toll on civilians exacted by coalition forces: events termed "blue on white" in military jargon. The logs reveal 144 such incidents.
Some of these casualties come from the controversial air strikes that have led to Afghan government protests, but a large number of previously unknown incidents also appear to be the result of troops shooting unarmed drivers or motorcyclists out of a determination to protect themselves from suicide bombers.
At least 195 civilians are admitted to have been killed and 174 wounded in total, but this is likely to be an underestimate as many disputed incidents are omitted from the daily snapshots reported by troops on the ground and then collated, sometimes erratically, by military intelligence analysts.
Bloody errors at civilians' expense, as recorded in the logs, include the day French troops strafed a bus full of children in 2008, wounding eight. A US patrol similarly machine-gunned a bus, wounding or killing 15 of its passengers, and in 2007 Polish troops mortared a village, killing a wedding party including a pregnant woman, in an apparent revenge attack. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/afghanistan-war-logs-military-leaks
" Covert troops who killed two pregnant women and a teenage girl in eastern Afghanistan went on to inflict “cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment” on the survivors of a botched night raid, a report by the UN said.
The family of the victims in Paktiya province have accused Nato of trying to cover up the atrocity after an investigation by The Times revealed that two men, who were also killed, were not the intended targets of the raid. One was a police commander and his brother was a district-attorney. "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/afghanistan/article7063184.ece
" American and NATO troops firing from passing convoys and military checkpoints have killed 30 Afghans and wounded 80 others since last summer, but in no instance did the victims prove to be a danger to troops, according to military officials in Kabul.
“We have shot an amazing number of people, but to my knowledge, none has ever proven to be a threat,” said Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, who became the senior American and NATO commander in Afghanistan last year." "
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/27/world/asia/27afghan.html?_r=1
" Britain's support for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan radicalized many Muslims and triggered a big rise in terrorism plots that nearly overwhelmed the British security services, the former head of the domestic intelligence agency said on Tuesday.
Giving evidence to an official inquiry into the Iraq war, Eliza Manningham-Buller, former MI5 director general, said the U.S.-led invasions had substantially raised the number of plots against Britain. "
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/07/20/world/international-us-britain-iraq-inquiry.html?_r=1&hp
---
The discussion of women's rights in the Middle East is legitimate, but to concentrate one's viewpoint only on this metric obfuscate and distort the reality of our bloody, disastrous occupation efforts in the region. The US-backed regime in Afghanistan nominally recognizes women's right to education, but it has also tried to pass very machist laws :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/05/afghanistan-shia-rape-law-scrap
On the whole, I don't think it can be argued that occupying countries militarily, deploying drone killers, private mercenaries and covert death squads is the right way to promote women's rights.
Frankly, I hope you'll agree.
I'd say that blurring the line between combatant and civilian is the fault of the Taliban, not the US, and so the incidental deaths are their fault, not ours, and they are responsible for those deaths (if they were not blurring the line, then western soldiers would never kill unarmed civilians).
It's hard to know what to do about that. The same thing happened in Vietnam, which eventuated in My Lai and other massacres. Not good, but also not our fault.
Unless you offer another way to fight for universal human rights, I think this is the only way. We can't just do nothing, which, I think you'd agree, is the most horrible option, but also the one you like the most, seemingly.
It's a little like Obama wrt the invading Mexicans. He is afraid to ever do anything wrong, so therefore he can't do anything.
War is always a question of relative evils. Every day life is always a question of relative evils. Since our world is fallen, there is no way for us to be saints.
Buddhists think they can become saints by sitting very very still.
But this is the biggest illusion of all. To do nothing when there are whole countries of women who can't read and can be raped by their husbands, is sick.
False dilemma, M. Olson.
The choice shouldn't be :
a)Let the Pentagon and its myriads of contractors run wild with a blank cheque from the taxpayers, commissionning remote-controlled robots, payrolling mercenaries and drug lords, establishing hundreds of military bases and propping up illegitimate regimes all over the region ;
or b)Convert to buddhism.
I see you've moved on. Maybe we'll continue this discussion in another post.
RE: Kirby's view of Obama's approach to immigration -
The reality comes up to smack Kirby's crackpot theories out the water...
(there's a Reason actual farlefties don't like Obama, and that's because he's not Actually farleft...He is just labeled as such by the media outlets you choose to trust, and therefore you take the perception as truth before you look at the facts...so it goes)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072501790.html
In short, Obama = tougher on immigration than the Republicans.
Kirby and Mathmos,
Our invasion of Afghanistan was legal because Al Qaida attacked us, and the Taliban government of Afghanistan was providing protection and support to Al Qaida. The social structure of Afghanistan under the Talib was unenlightened by our standards, but it enjoyed substantial popular support due to its role in ejecting the Soviet Union from Afghanistan in the 80's. This is not something that gets discussed much, but the Talib are essentially the same people that we armed and trained and called the mujahideen, back in that day. I imagine that there is considerable schadenfreude these days on the part of fUSSR veterans of their Afghan war.
The US has a legitimate interest in suppressing Al Qaida. Using the military as our tool of choice in this effort has been counter-productive, because military action causes civilian casualties, and with it the enmity of the people whose assistance we are most in need of. The problem, of course, is that the obvious pure strategy—police action—was not viable within Afghanistan precisely because the Talib were protecting Al Qaida.
Clear thinking at this point would argue that an Afghan government that is not dominated by the Taliban will lack legitimacy. Fundamentalism is ultimately a reaction to and rejection of the modern world, often superimposed on top of the rural-urban divide, and the Talib are Afghan fundamentalists. We can see the same cause and effect in our own country, but the causes are much more powerful in Afghanistan, a country which is much more rural (they're 24% urbanized according to the CIA World Factbook, we're 82% urbanized), has lower literacy (28% vs. 99%), and a less productive economy (GDP/capita $800/year vs. $46,600/year). By comparison, Iraq is much more urbanized (67%), literate (74%), and has a much higher GDP/capita ($3600/year), and heaven knows we've had enough trouble there. And of course Afghanistan is also a country which has had large foreign armies (from the Moguls, to the Czars, to the Brits, to the Soviets, to us) wandering around for a long time, doing the things that occupying armies do.
Here is the fundamental obstruction: because each foreign soldier increases the power of fundamentalism, the net benefit of adding a soldier is diminished because you're making your enemy stronger too. In Iraq, the net effect of adding a soldier was positive, so success (however we chose to define it) boils down to making a large enough effort. In Afghanistan, it's not clear that the net benefit of adding a soldier is even positive. When you're losing money on each sale, you can't make it up in volume.
So what is the solution? Our best bet is to work with the Taliban. To change the war from us vs. them and Al Qaida, to them and us vs. Al Qaida. Our goal should be clear and simple: bin Laden's head on a spike, and the rest of Al Qaida in their graves. This is harder now that we have erstwhile anti-Taliban allies on the ground in Afghanistan, because we'll need to rescue some, and betray the rest. But make no mistake. We will leave, and whether now or in twenty years, the Taliban will still be there to take control. And the longer we stay, the more people we'll have to rescue, and the more we'll have to betray.
Mathmos, I added a new post, but since no one has read that book, I doubt if it will get comments. So the Sherrod thread is the live thread.
I usually continue with comments on anything that is still visible on the first page.
Sometimes I still get people mad four years later or so in one of my archives, and still add their comments, but no one reads them.
I wrote an incendiary post years ago called BUDDHISM BAD! which still gets posts from Buddhists who come in and shred Christianity, and then leave. I love that.
Actually, there is a lot to like about Buddhism, and the societies it creates. It's just that they can't defend themselves since they are so gentle. So they get taken over very easily by Marxists.
Tibet, Myanmar, and Vietnam are such societies.
Oh, and San Francisco.
I'll respond to your post in due time, Stu, but for now I'd really like to see sources attached to some of the claims you make.
The stats you cite seem valid enough, and most people not tethered to Murdoch News know about the origins of the Taliban (and Al Qaeda, I'll add) ; but I find claims such as 'the Talib were protecting Al Qaida' or 'In Iraq, the net effect of adding a soldier was positive' to be at the very least problematic, as is the notion that we're currently occupying Afghanistan, a 650000 km2 country with a population of more than 28 millions, only as a means to capture or kill Al Qaeda, a group amounting to at most 300 people in the whole region (by CIA Director Leon Panetta's own admission).
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/2010/07/02/u-s-counterterror-chief-we-need-debate-on-civil-liberties.html
stu, I don't think the popularity or eventual dominance of the Taliban in Afghanistan as a whole are givens, though, admittedly, neither is success in the current anti-Taliban campaign of NATO and Afghan forces. And we'll see what effects President Obama's proposed "deadline" for our withdrawal and our troops' present strictures on their rules of engagement have on that campaign. But I don't agree that the military component of the present campaign is either futile or counter-productive.
Brett, we've been over some of this ground here before about the "far-left"--sure, you and M. Le Mathmos can rake up views of the anti-war, anti-military, hard-core socialist left and claim President Obama is not "far-left" by comparison. But outside the limited political environs of contemporary radical Jacobin clubs, "truthers," academics, etc. these views are hardly representative of significant numbers of American voters. When one uses this latter standard as a comparative measure, the President's record as legislator shows him to be on the clear left. As president, he's ostensibly tempered his views in the interests of political expediency as well as in deference to his ever-ebbing approval numbers in the polls.
Mathmos,
I'll respond to your post in due time, Stu, but for now I'd really like to see sources attached to some of the claims you make.
The %-age statistics all come from the CIA World Factbook, and are easily verified there. The claim that the Taliban was protecting Al Qaida comes from the events immediately following 9/11, and are summarized on the Wiki "Taliban" page, which also lists Al Qaida as an ally. Briefly, we demanded that they hand over all Al Qaida leaders, they demurred, demanding proof. It seemed clear enough at the time that they had no intention of giving them up, and I'm aware of no reports that have called this initial assessment into question. This was the casus belli for our invasion.
The claim that the net effect of adding a soldier to Iraq was positive is based on the relative improvement in Iraqi security as a result of the surge. Like you, I doubted the surge would work a priori, but it did, and this should be admitted. Honest argument requires the acknowledgement in good faith of adverse facts.
As for my description of the US army as an "occupying" army, it seems to me that you're quibbling over definitions, arguing in effect that our presence is too dilute (about 1/4 soldier per km^2, if my back of the envelope calculation is right) to constitute a meaningful occupation. My take on this is that I'm not particularly wedded to the term "occupying," except in the sense that our army is generally not welcome in Afghanistan, and that its goals include nation building. If there is another word for this that you feel suits the situation better, propose it, but I continue to believe that the US presence in Afghanistan, whatever we call it, suffers from feedback effects so that the derivative of efficacy w.r.t. size is negative. Given your politics, I'd expect you to agree, so I'm a bit puzzled what your beef is.
The notion that we're there "only as a means to capture or kill al Qaida" seems to me to be a fantasy, as the both the Bush and Obama administrations have described progress in terms of wresting control of disputed areas away from the Taliban, and that the folks we're actually fighting are generally Talib, and only rarely al Qaida. Again, I'd expect you to agree with this, given your self-stated political commitments.
JADL,
Obviously, we see the world in different ways. I respect your service in Vietnam, but clearly we disagree over lessons learned. And also clearly, you're in favor of everything that Bush did, and opposed to everything Obama is doing, even when they are objectively doing the same thing for the same reasons. Mr. Bush's decision to set a deadline in Iraq was intended to spur the Iraqis into taking on responsibility for their own security, a responsibility that they'd been shirking. Mr. Obama's decision to set a deadline in Afghanistan is based on the same issue, which he is trying to solve in the same way. Both are, quite bluntly, "Vietnamization" strategies. The hope for a different outcomes now vs. then ultimately rests on the notion that the enemies of the nascent states we've created are not established states themselves, and therefore the standard definition of insanity does not apply. My assessment is that ultimately Mr. Bush's gamble will "succeed," in the limited sense that we'll extricate ourselves from Iraq, and that eventually a governent will arise in Iraq that will both have popular support, and be an arguable successor to the government now in place. I'm less optimistic about Mr. Obama's gamble, simply because the Afghan government is weaker, and seems unlikely to get much stronger given the differences in urbanization. Mr. Obama's problem with this legacy war, though, is that this may be the best outcome available.
The issue that proponents of a longer war have to address is how an extended engagement there by our forces is likely to improve the existing Afghan government's long-term chances against the Taliban. And what I'm not seeing is any evidence that the existing government is able to retain control of rural areas without active coalition support. And if this is the case, it's the end of the argument: Afghanistan is 3-1 rural vs. urban, and these are decisive odds.
As for the notion that Mr. Obama is left wing, let me argue otherwise. Clearly, if the "center" means anything in US politics, it must mean a synthetic combination of views based on taking the median opinion of the voters on any given question. Given the shellacing the R's took in '08, its inarguable that the median national voter voted for Obama. Clearly, also, Mr. Obama's efforts to shape governmental policy have been within the Democratic consensus, and I can't recall any major initiative of his that didn't receive the backing of more than half of the Senate and House. Again, the "center" is voting Democratic, within our representative assemblies as well as in the national popular vote. This is an adverse fact that you should acknowledge: the center of this country is within the Democratic consensus and outside of the Republican consensus, and moreover is likely to remain so for the foreseeable future, whatever the discontents of 2010.
Obama may be left of center in America, but to call him 'far' left is to take all meaning from the word 'far.'
For an example:
You may draw the line for being Far Left at single-payer, or MAYBE at public option - but if you draw it at health-exchanges and individual mandate, you're simply wrong.
Brett, remember, Obama wanted single payer, and he wanted the public option. He settled. He's still got constitutional challenges ahead, plus he's going to lose his large majority in about four months.
Stu, the Taliban HAD BEEN popular when they got into government but when they banned pop music, demanded that all men have long beards, and started shooting little girls in the head in soccer stadiums, support dwindled.
If women are 50% of a country, then they can't have popular support at this point. Of course, they will ban women's vote, but with the women's vote, they are not high on the pop charts at this point.
Obama came in pretending he was going to be a centrist, and like the Taliban, was initially popular. But then he started ramming through enormous spending bills that had all kinds of secret pork in them. (30 million dollars for a salt marsh harvest mouse in Pelosi's district, is just one indication of the kind of stuff that went into the "Stimulus.")
There was the Officer Crowley incident which turned the nation's police against him.
There is now Mexican immigration.
Gay marriage.
And other issues on which he demurred during the initial votes, but now we see he's 100% on the side of gay rights in the military, and gay right to marriage.
This means that the right is galvanized against him (his initial positions were soft, but they've hardened, which means that those against him are also firming up).
Meanwhile, he has a far far left pacifist base that isn't pleased that he didn't simply cut and run in Afghanistan and Iraq, and thinks he's not moving quick enough on gay issues, and they want the Mexicans to become citizens overnight, and they think America deserves a thousand Mogadishus.
Obama's place is very tenuous at this point, and he's balancing on one foot like a ballerina trying to find a consensus spot.
There is no consensus. Obama is basically a demagogue who doesn't have any of his own principles and lets popular opinion sway him. Because he's surrounded himself with crazy academics he listens to them, and they are far out of the main stream.
Even ObamaGirl has turned against him. He won't return her calls. She thought she was going to become the Czar of Obamadom or something, and he left her high and dry.
Also, it turns out that his insurance program burns the young, since it conscripts them against their will and against their own better judgement, forcing them to pay.
Beck is using Hayek, O'Reilly is getting more hammerheaded, and the right in general is finally finding ways to puncture Obama's balloon.
Katrina was a big problem for Bush.
But Katrina is nothing compared to Deepwater Horizon.
So, the perspective is shifting against Obama, just as it is shifting against the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Perceptions aren't stable. People do grow up, although for some it takes longer.
For someone like Bill Ayres, he will always remain a perpetual adolescent convinced that throwing tantrums and killing innocents is the way to get a job done.
Legitimacy is a difficult thing to attain in terms of public perception, and it's even harder to hold on to it.
Obama's still got it, I think, but only just. He's at 43% approval now, down from 78%.
Congress is at 11%.
You completely misinterpreted my comment, Stu, I'm sad to say.
I specified that your stats were not in question.
I remain unconvinced that the surge was the actual cause of "better security" in Iraq, and not the ethnic cleansing and civilian displacement having reached and passed fever point.
I absolutely agree that the US are occupying Afghanistan militarily, as a cursory glance at my previous comments will ascertain. My quibbling was with what I took to be your assessment that the main motive for this occupation was terrorist-hunting (this is certainly part of the official PR, but a fantasy as you point out). If I was mistaken on your actual position, then it's settled.
For what it's worth, M. Olson, I actually agree with you (in a general sense) that Obama needs to go.
I like your suggestion that he be impeached for betrayal of the Constitution. Only, I'd like that policy to be applied in a strictly non-partisan manner, meaning the impeachment of every presidents from Clinton onward (at the very least).
Most of the left-wing commentariat seems to be pining for the a third-party of some kind. Even the comment section of mainstream liberal (pro-Democrat) netroots venues like Digby's and Yglesias' are considering harsh punitive measures against the Democratic majority.
I myself can't wait for the constant confusion of the Left with a principle-less, openly opportunistic, bought-and-paid-for party of courtiers like the Democrats to end.
stu, I agree we do see the world differently indeed, but that's not to say that I disagree with much of what you've presented earlier on this thread about the Afghanistan problem.
I'm not sure what your understanding of the Vietnam War's "lessons" may be other than a very general one that we should try to promote and train indigenous forces to resist and defeat an implacable enemy, but know that my understanding is not primarily informed by my wartime service there or by my status as a disabled vet. Perhaps more, and like Kirby, as an academic in the humanities I relished tweaking smug left-wing bien-pensant sensibilities. But in any case I'm not sure how much of our Vietnam War experience can apply to our campaign in Afghanistan, just as you've rightly pointed out differences in the respective campaign conditions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Nor did I say that I agreed with all President Bush did in the repective war efforts, nor disapprove of all President Obama is doing there. I simply wondered what effect the President's announcements of deadlines may have on the strategy, tactics, and outcome of the wars. Both as candidate and as president he's announced various "deadlines" before (inter alia, on withdrawals from Iraq) that have since passed. I think it's safe to say that Americans tend to be impatient with and sceptical about long and costly wars, so I share your uncertainty about the Afghan War's outcome.
The following sentence of yours had me puzzled, however:
"The hope for a different outcomes [sic] now vs. then ultimately rests on the notion that the enemies of the nascent states we've created are not established states themselves, and therefore the standard definition of insanity [sic] does not apply."
I'm with Kirby that Taliban successes owe more to fear, terror, violence, forcible appropriation, and suppression than to sympathy, but that's not to say that the former will not succeed in subjugating NATO and Afghan resistance to the Taliban's programme of conquest and retrograde oppression.
On the President as leftist question, labels are always contentious. But I'd say that the reasons for President Obama's election did not in the main concern his often vaguely-expressed programme intentions but what majority voter expectations were of his percipience and character, combined with dissatisfaction with the previous president.
Mathmos,
I apologize for having misinterpreted you.
I remain unconvinced that the surge was the actual cause of "better security" in Iraq, and not the ethnic cleansing and civilian displacement having reached and passed fever point.
This is a fair point, although you've left out the Anbar Awakening, which also plays into the narrative that Iraqi security ultimately depends on the the development of a legitimate, popularly supported, and trusted Iraqi security forces (both police and army).
Still, I think it is too easy to dismiss the surge, which provided enough trained and well-equipped troops to give the Sunni militias the security they needed to develop into effective forces. The question of the day is whether or not these militias can be absorbed into the current Iraqi national forces.
As for the battles of the left, I'm generally on the progressive-pragmatic side. I too believe that we need better, not merely more, Democrats. But inevitably, the Democrats who win seats in historically Republican areas are going to be more conservative than the party as a whole, but we're better served by them than we would be by their still more conservative Republican opponents. (I have in mind here folks like Tester D-Montana.) Where we're ill served is when we get someone who is a corporate shill (Dodd), or substantially more conservative than the their electorate (Lincoln). The right venue for our battles is the primaries, and even there, we need to pay some attention to (but not be ruled by) the electability argument. Politics, as ever, is the art of the possible. Of course, the Republicans are going through a parallel battle, which is all the more vicious becuase of their rejection at the polls in '08. The good news for us is that they show no signs of being pragmatic about this or anything else.
And I disagree strongly with your desire to impeach Obama, who it seems to me has pushed as progressive an agenda as possible, given the reality of Republican obstruction, especially in the Senate. If you believe he could have done more, you need to be able to explain where the votes would have come from.
To read this blog, you'd think that Republican majorities in the House and Senate are a fait accompli for '10, and that Sarah Palin will become President in '12. The question for us all of us now isn't whether we believe that this version of reality will come to pass, it is whether we're willing to work against (or for) it, as our beliefs require.
Mathmos sounds like a person with principles. This is very rare in the left. I also appreciate his willingness to not scream, but to examine and sift through evidence.
Yesterday 91,000 documents on the Afghan war were released.
Obama is angry.
It's another strange release of matter like Deepwater Horizon.
This kind of thing never happened with W. He had a much tighter ship.
Also, in NJ, a judge ruled that a Muslim man was entitled to rape his wife, because it accorded with his beliefs (to heck with NJ law).
This is something that is not just OVER THERE, but all around us, and is seeping into our law, like the oil from Deepwater Horizon is seeping into the wetlands of the Gulf.
We either fight this with our own logic and laws or else we submit to theirs.
With multiculturalism, we are supposed to just allow any crummy culture to invade ours.
I think we ought to stand for Protestant principles as defined by Madison and Jefferson in the Constitution.
This is going to be increasingly difficult to do as those principles are under attack by almost everyone in the culture.
This means that Sharia or Marxism or some other horrifying set of laws will take their place.
JADL,
What a remarkably civil discussion we're having now. In the meantime...
The following sentence of yours had me puzzled, however:
"The hope for a different outcomes [sic] now vs. then ultimately rests on the notion that the enemies of the nascent states we've created are not established states themselves, and therefore the standard definition of insanity [sic] does not apply."
The first [sic] should have applied to the preceding "a," not to "outcomes," since the implied reference was to both Iraq and Afghanistan, hence the plural. The second [sic] is in error, because the original text is correct as it stands. I could have flagged your comment as " ... insanity [sic] [sic] ...," but as you know, I take the view that minor grammatical errors in ephemeral writings should be politely passed over.
Let's take this in reverse order. The standard definition of insanity is Einstein's: doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result. The potential application here is that we're following the Vietnamization strategy, which failed in Vietnam, but are expecting different outcomes (successes!) in Iraq and Afghanistan.
My first point was that in Vietnam, ARVN had the Army of North Vietnam to contend with, i.e., South Vietnam had an established nation in North Vietnam as its enemy. There is no North Iraq, or West Afghanistan, as a separate hostile nation, for the current Iraqi or Afghani governments to deal with. Thus, our current strategy does not amount to doing the same thing over and over again, and so Einstein's definition does not apply.
I'm with Kirby that Taliban successes owe more to fear, terror, violence, forcible appropriation, and suppression than to sympathy, but that's not to say that the former will not succeed in subjugating NATO and Afghan resistance to the Taliban's programme of conquest and retrograde oppression.
Let me suggest that this is very much an urban Afghani's view of the Taliban. The Taliban must be viewed differently by rural Afghanis, or they would find it much more difficult to re-establish themselves in rural areas after our forces have moved on. Like you, I view the Taliban as repressive, and terrorist in the way they interact with urban populations, but then I have a urbanite's view of the world. A meaningful parallel can be drawn to the Nazi's. The Nazi's had tremendous popular support early on, but over time they lost the support of the more educated and cosmopolitan Germans. But I don't believe they lost the support of the rural and working class Germans until very near the end, if then. I see the Taliban as being broadly similar in terms of their support trajectory, which makes it easy for us to underestimate their popular support, simply because the Taliban are loathed by the Afghanis who are most like us. The problem, of course, is that there are a heck of a lot more Afghanis whose world view is nothing at all like ours, and their support of the Taliban is decisive.
"Mathmos sounds like a person with principles. This is very rare in the left. I also appreciate his willingness to not scream, but to examine and sift through evidence."
I'm struggling not to read condescension in those words.
M. Olson, tell me, if by "the left" you mean :
1)Obama and his liberal/progressive supporters (as people of your political orientation sometimes mean), then of course you're right to point out that they have no principles*, but I'm not part of this group, and the blogs I linked to are themselves invested in highlighting and documenting the hypocrisy and dishonesty of liberal and progressive ideology.
If rather you mean :
2) People, like me, espousing actually leftist aims and policies
--an end to the War on Terror, the break-up of Too Big To Fail banking complexes, brutal and permanent defense cuts, Nationalized Healthcare System, the closing of secret prisons and the incarceration of those responsible for the many-pronged torture regime, massive cut-backs upon and civilian oversight over the unaccountably wasteful 'intelligence community', the resurrection and ratification of the Kyoto Protocol, the illegalization of corporate donations to political parties and the institution of public funding for campaigns, including third parties, among other things--
then I don't see where the absence of principles comes into play, seeing as to advocate for these things over and above the repeated establishment-mediated call for nonpartisanship and moderation under Obama** is making rather explicit the rejection of pragmatism and the defense of principles.
*Example : Democratic Representative Steny Hoyer
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/07/20/hoyer/index.html
**Example : numerous anonymous White House sources asking for the Left to be more 'moderate'
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=D58D428A-18FE-70B2-A80D4E80D221BD8A
P.-S. : By the way, you asked earlier what my job was. I work in a public library.
Kirby,
Also, in NJ, a judge ruled that a Muslim man was entitled to rape his wife, because it accorded with his beliefs (to heck with NJ law).
I've long since learned not to take your factual assertions at face value. It's always a good idea to check sources.
Reference: S.D. v. M.J.R.
In 2009, a trial judge in family court ruled that non-consensual sex within a marriage did not automatically entitle the wife to a restraining order under the rape clause of the restraining law statute, because the husband believed his religion taught that he had a right as husband to demand sex from his wife. The trial judge as a finding of fact agreed that non-consensual sex had taken place, but he found as a matter of law that there was no criminal intent, and so declined to issue the restraining order. This finding of law was reversed by the Superior Court of New Jersey last Friday, and a restraining order was entered. It is the Superior Court decision which sets the precedent, not the trial court decision that it overturned.
Did a trial judge make an incorrect decision? Yes, under NJ law. Was it reversed on appeal? Yes. Isn't this the why we have appellate courts? Yes. So what exactly is Kirby worried about?
But this hardly begins to deal with the real complications here. The notion that non-consensual sex within marriage is rape is relatively new even in this country, and hardly universal. I agree with your view that it is, but the plain truth is that most states do not. You clearly don't remember when Utah passed an early (we're talking the mid-80's here, IIRC) marital rape law, which was hugely controversial. The first prosecution attempt fell through because the couple reconciled. In most states, married women have the right to decline sex with their husband, but non-consensual sex is viewed legally as less than rape. New Jersey is one of the 20 states that does view non-consensual sex within marriage as rape.
Viewing this "husbands have the right to rape their wives" belief as some sort of specifically Muslim aberration is ignorant. The major resistance to marital rape laws in this country has come from Christian fundamentalists who cite Ephesians 5:24, "Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything," as a biblical warrant for marital rape as a male right.
This is something that is not just OVER THERE, but all around us, and is seeping into our law, like the oil from Deepwater Horizon is seeping into the wetlands of the Gulf.
Actually, no. Our legal system is more robust than you're giving it credit for. And deepest challenges to our law driven by committed religious belief come from indigenous Christian fundamentalists.
Kirby,
Obama is angry.
It's another strange release of matter like Deepwater Horizon.
This kind of thing never happened with W. He had a much tighter ship.
There was this 9/11 thing. Maybe you heard of it.
Actually, I was once with the green anarchists. I tok a right turn on 9/11, and one day after W. made ssnese to me, and then I started listening to Fox, and thought -- hatred and fear might be what this country needs.
I was at least 45 before I shifted. One day the tables turned, and they're still turning.
I started going back to church about then, too, whch gave me a community of people who one day tuned out the left.
Now I read right wing histories. I'm reading the Forgotten Man, now. It's a conservative history of the Depression.
I have an emotional afiliation with the hippies, with Woodstock, etc.
But as I pull back, I also am beginning to see the beauty of Goldwater, Hoover, Lincoln, Madison, back toLocke, and Augustine.
I think Jesusis talking about the next world.
I listen to Fox News and especially like O'Reilly.
I also listen to MSNBC, and CNN, and BBC, and the public station with some woman named walawalawalawalawala or something. She's quite good.
Big public library, or small public library? Do you order books, or do you ever review books?
What age are you?
What do you think of PETA?
I'm not giving that much useless details online. A big library. I'm doing a digital cataloging project.
Well, it is useful to know if you are elderly and thus in some tertiary phase of radicalism, and also whether you were raised in such a family, or whether you are fresh out of college and have recently been radicalized, and thus are amenable to counter brainwashing, etc.
Thus, we can proceed accordingly.
If you are already in your sixties, then there will be no attemptat coercion. If you are under 25, i would attempt to throw curve balls, and perhaps slide something into your brain stem that turned you into a fire-breathing Lutheran Surrealist, turning your digital program into a fountain of surrealist Lutheranism.
The elderly are harder to turn and to spin, unfortunately.
is your reason for nonymity that you feel that you should hide your leftism, so as to burrow deeply under the system, or do you feel that if outted, you would lose your position, or your profession?
I always wonder about his. I prefer to deal with real people in real places, or else I feel as if I am dealing with a poltergeist.
I'm on my borther's computer and the screen is impossible to read. Sorry for the typos.
Give us a little more data so that we can sense your spin: are you a lover of Chiomsky? Do you prefer Bakunin to Trotsky?
What rebel leader currently afoot do you like?
What doyou think abou chavez, for instance? Is he to your liking?
I don't mind anarchism (I don't consider cho9msky to be an anarchist) butIdo like things about people like Rudolf Rocker.
But America is a good place. Give me Madison, give me Lincoln, give me Calvin Coolidge. I like people like that, and people like Ron and Nancy Reagan.
I can see where you're coming from, M. Olson, but I don't have to oblige you.
Having now read other posts on this blog, I suspect that your political affiliation owes much more to matters of cultural identity and belonging than to a fact-based, falsifiable and politicized view of society as a whole. (Some would argue that the former is always dominant on an individual level, but then any political discussion whatsoever would become an exercise in obviousness or pointlessness. I don't think this is the case in all situations.) As such, I don't see the use in trying to convince you or 'brainwash' you into another person. I'll be content if I can merely make a few empirical bits stick here and there for the benefit of any readers.
There are already many subjects on the table (perimeter of the Left in America, Obama and the Left, the occupation of Afghanistan, non-Protestant insufficiencies, etc.) without bringing in PETA, Chomsky or my own personal situation.
stu, thanks for clarifying your contentions and comparisons about the Afghanistan situation that I didn't find as clearly made in the passage I queried. Though I find them at times glib and too pat (e.g., the Afghan farmer's current support of the Taliban is like the WWII-era German worker's support of the Nazis), there is something in what you say worth considering.
And I'd forgotten your "extra normam" or non-standard "standard definition of insanity" you've cited some time before in posts, so I used the "[sic]" to question the meaning of a phrase (I did just before indicate puzzlement at the sentence) rather than to mark an error; this dual function of "[sic]" is, I assure you, quite standard.
I've generally deferred to your aversion to corrections of minor grammatical or spelling errors (we all of course make them), like "Nazi's" [sic] for "Nazis," for examples of correct usage are perhaps best shown by casually used correct and unmarked examples rather than by corrections by another, though I should say that there was a time when it was considered careless, even rude, not to prune these grammatical or spelling weeds before taking another on a tour of one's garden.
Stu's notion that the evangelicals are pro-rape so long as it's inside the house scapegoats the evangelicals, I think, and isn't quite fair.
The problem withthe Islamics and women is more serious because in extreme cases they don't allow the women to be literate (Taliban, for example) which has indeed been a huge cause for their unpopularity. Many Afghan farmers who love their girls are against themfor that reason.
Terrorism can of course cause a certain acquiescance, as we learned with the communists in Vietnam. Their terror campaigns did work.
Terror works. N. Korea has learned this, too.
But in terms of the misery index, it also causes a country to sink to the bottom.
I'mnot aware of any evangelical groups within Christianity that refuse literacy to women. I am also not aware of any Christian group (aside from a few Mormon splinter groups) that allow men to have multiple partners.
In general, if we return to equality as an indicator of ... equality ... it being a central term for justice, then I think the evangelicals are centuries ahead of the Muslims with regard to women's rights.
Rape within a marriage is generally frowned upon in every sector of Christian America. The laws changed slowly in some areas (it's a difficult thing to prove, and in cases like Kobe Bryant's situation, it may really be the case that what he thought was consensual, wasn't, according to her, or she may just have been a gold digger).
It's a he-said, she-said, and I think that's the real problem with laws that seek to get between a couple and arbitrate the outcome of a disputed action.
But in Islamic societies the women's bodies simply belong to the men. This includes their brains.
It's a question of degree, but if was going to have to be a woman, I'd choose an evangelical Christian over a Muslim, especially one in the Taliban held areas of Afghanistan.
I suspect that Stu would, too.
Mathmos, you don't have to comply.
I think it's fine to get your two cents in.
Without a context, it's just harder to understand what someone is saying.
There aren't any facts without a theory, and any theory requires facts. Neither can be made without a human speaker and a human history.
Much of what you're saying is missing in terms of context, so I find it all quite obscure. Not much comes through as a result of the conditions through which you're speaking.
I just don't have any context in which to put your remarks, so I mostly just let them go in one ear and out the other. It would help me to understand what you were saying if you told me the who, what, when, where and why of your stated beliefs. Without that, I just have facts without any sense of who's stating them.
But that's your choice.
We're actually just people here in a kind of seminar situation. I think it would help us to have a truly ideological leftist among us. Brett and Stu are to the left but they are both Christian, and both have a stake in being perceived as centrist.
So do I, but from the right side.
Ultimately, of course, I believe that everyone is an individual, and nothing else.
I appreciate your not wishing to brainwash us, though. That's pleasant.
Conditions for brainwashing require unanimity, holding someone in captivity for months, and not allowing in other information of any kind. Some colleges have been able to create those conditions.
But just a few facts from outside can wreck a good brainwashing.
Kirby,
Stu's notion that the evangelicals are pro-rape so long as it's inside the house scapegoats the evangelicals, I think, and isn't quite fair.
I think you've gone beyond what I said, and certainly beyond what I believe. Let me clarify. Resistance to marital rape laws in the US has come predominantly from fundamentalists (which I view as not exactly co-extensive with evangelicals) but this hardly means that all evangelicals or all fundamentalists believe that a husband owns their wife's body.
And I agree that the Taliban wants to order society so that men are dominant, and women subservient, but this is hardly unique. As a matter of degree, the Taliban goes further than most, but I not a lot further. If you're so keen on equality of the sexes, why do you belong to a synod that does not ordain women?
This is ultimately the issue, and it is the same for us as for the Muslim: our religions emerged from ancient societies that had very different social norms than our own. Our scriptures, and theirs, often reflect the norms of these ancient societies, and indeed view their particular conventions and patterns of human relationships -- including differential roles for men and women -- as divinely ordained. And so we, like they, struggle with the dissonance.
To the extent that there is a difference, is is that Christianity has been engaged in the struggle a lot longer, and we're farther down the road of accommodation. There are many, of course, and this sometimes includes you, who would say perdition instead of accommodation. Just recognize that when you do, you stand shoulder to shoulder with both Bishops and Taliban.
Kirby, on some of your concerns about undue promotion of (in predominantly Muslim countries) and deference to (in predominantly non-Muslim ones) common Muslim practises of female subjugation through genital mutilation, male escort requirements, clothing restrictions, forced marriages, gruesome punishments for adultery, apostacy, consorting with non-Muslims and other offences, denial of educational, voting, and occupational opportunities, gender apartheid, honour killings and the like, Robert Spencer's "Jihad Watch" blog site is a reliable, if somewhat alarmist source.
Spencer also notes and describes how Sharia front groups masquerading as civil rights organisations like the Council on American Islamic Relations work to cloak many of the oppressive features of Sharia and exaggerate Muslim grievances in America while acting as apologists for aggressive Islam throughout the world.
Stu, my synod, like the Catholics, doesn' ordain women or homosexuals, but does want human rights for both groups. Because of two kingdoms, it allows for a separation of church and state, and provides for voting rights, ability to be educated (all Missour colleges are co-educational), and so are vastly different from Muslim groups, in which a one-kingdom society (church and state are not to be distinguished, and in most Muslim societies they are also not allowed to either switch religions, or to question their religion, or ven to exist if they are not Muslim -- Christians Afghanistan, for instance, simply does not exist -- and you know what they did with the buddhist statues).
There are many who don't want to ordain women and homosexuals who nevertheless think that if the society votes yes for gay marriage, andit is legal, then gay marriage is legal. I have no problem with a female judge or a female police officer.
Unlike you, I don't think the church has to remain in fashion. It is in a sense a counter movement to the current fashions, holding to the word of God.
But also unlike you I think the church is n a separate sphere. I don't think what Jesus said has anything to do with our current economic system (Christ's economics in this sphere would be disastrous because they are not based on consumer's notions of their own best-interest, but instead place a bizarre burden on the consumer to help out the other players, and thus create chaos).
I believe inthe invisible hand.
These fluxes are difficult to sort out.
Your synod wants to deregulate who can be ordained (it seems to me without any kind of permission from up above, but simply out of some kind of interest in remaining with it), but also wants to over-regulate the economy so that it no longerworks.
Already many American jobs are being outsourced because the regulations on pollution, for instance, are so overwhelming that it's cheaper for most companies to just move to Mexico or China
Regulations and degugulatory problems inside and outside the churches are fascinating.
I want the church to regulate who can and cannot be ordained, and unlike the ELCA which allows the lay folks to make up two-thirds of its vote, I want the church to be regulated 100% byits pastors and bishops.
This is difficult to think about, but it's harder to do it when you just let everybody vote and are secretly overtaken by crypto-communists who don't even believe in a living God.
That's the case with your statement when you say that the regulations of he early Christians came out of history rather than out of a covenant with God.
It means you don't believe that the regulations in Romans and in Leviticus matter any longer. And we are free todo as we like.
The ELCA has now deregulated all sexual regulations. S & M, and any other activity, is now encouraged by the ELCA. It's all part of the new covenant with the newer, hipper God.
In terms of the other matter, it seems that the ELCa has adopted as its new maxim, "When in doubt, ordain."
This leads to a doubtfulness all through the synod, and leads to a massive defection rate. Where's the quality? Who will guarantee it?
We will, say the crypto-Marxists.
Sorry for the typos. I'm at my brother's house, and his screen is about four feet away from the keyboard, and I can't see the words that far away to check that they are going in as I would like.
JADL's note makes good sense to bring back in all the other Muslim regulations: clitorectomies are also a special instance that separates Muslims from Christians.
You're not being at all fair to equate Muslims and Christian fundamentalists.
What Christian wants clitorectomies?
You have to think about the actual details, about multiple marriages, and stop creating Procrustean arguments by logic-chopping in order to create a similarity that doesn't exist.
Any christian can drop out of their community if they don't like it. What is the price of apostacy in Afghanistan?
Kirby,
I concur that the US as a society recognizes a separation between church and state, whereas Islamic states do not. I disagree that this can be fairly characterized as the two-kingdom vs. one-kingdom distinction, although I admit that there is a useful analogy.
That said, I don't buy what you're trying to sell, which is that we can identify equality with equality-lite, where the later means equality in civil realm, but not in the religious realm. You are correct that female members of the LCMS are "more equal" than their female counterparts living under Islamic law, but I'd note that they are also "less equal" than their female counterparts in the ELCA.
I also believe that you're ignoring socio-political development within the Islamic world, which I would argue is behind that of the formerly Christian west, but following the same trajectory modulo a later start.
Consider Turkey, which was the core of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. Turkey is now a secular state, and within it people have the freedom to adopt a religion, or to convert from one to another. Turkey certainly has Islamic elements who are trying to bring about a return to Islamic law, and it is possible that they'll succeed. But here too, we have people who are trying to impose their religious beliefs on society as a whole through the law. Turkey's membership in NATO, its efforts to join the EU, etc., point to a society in which religion and government are largely decoupled, making real religious plurality a possibility.
Afghanistan is the other end of the Islamic continuum. I'm loathe to suggest a western analogue, but let me tentatively propose Spain, which held onto the ancien regime longer than most. You would not have wanted to be Jew or a Muslim in 16th century Spain, any more than you'd want to be a Christian Afghani today. It's true that we no longer burn heretics and drown witches, but also true that we did until relatively recently. I'm not saying that Christianity is no different from Islam, but I am saying that your arguments about the social impacts of both overlooks considerable history, and copious evidence to the contrary.
Indeed, it is unreasonable to model contemporary rural, tribal Afghanistan as 6th century BCE Israel, but with guns and TVs?
Great googlie-mooglie. I'm away for a bit because I'm actually part of the country that has to work so the government can steal what I earn and I come back to 70 comments? I wish you all well, but I don't have that kind of time.
Randy
Randy, it's the end of the summer and many of us do work but are on the academic calendar as either profs or students.
Some of us even work for private universities.
(Stu.)
Not sure where some of the people here work.
But everyone works, with no exceptions. Protestant work ethic and all.
Even the Catholic monk worked, after a fashion.
I miss that guy. He got mad for some obscure reason. I had been pummelling him for years, and then one day he took exception to a relatively inane comment, and off he went to pray, and has never been since seen.
Alas! I did not make the hairshirt itchy enough one day, and off he goes.
We even had an actual Muslim here from time to time. One that sounded like a Muslim, a guy named Yuseef (actually a Marxist) and another who sounded like a Christian (Meg) but who was a far-out Muslim.
Oy vey!
Stu, I'm going to let your remarks settle. I don't think hierarchy within a voluntary institution is the same as hierarchy within a state. Anyone can leave the Missouri Synod and go over to the ELCA. ELCA permits no hierarchy at all really: lay members actually outrank the priesthood in terms of their voting numbers and the power they wield. Everyone can be ordained.
Any sexual practice is ok.
It's all about toleration.
I see the church as about INDIVIDUAL regulation (you choose or not to sbumit).
I see the government as about SOCIETAL regulation (you must submit).
Mixing the two up is the essence of one-kingdom societies (Marxist, Islamic, or Calvinist).
Lutheranism separates the two.
If the church remains a separate sphere, then the regulations within it remain for the individual (although the ten commandments are roughly speaking the background to most western law, including those within Lutheran societies).
The first three commandments are not part of western law. They are only for the individual to accept (or not).
The equation between Inquisition Spain and contemporary Afghanistan leaves our two remaining Catholics in a position where they might choose to respond. But since neither one is a SPANISH Catholic, maybe they won't.
Spanish thumbscrews are part of the reason their colonies are still so backwards from El Salvador to the Philippines. There is probably some defense for it, but since Luther had no part of that branch of Christianity, I don't feel called upon to defend it.
I do think we should try to keep them out of this country.
(Using regulations.)
I do believe that there should be laws, including laws that restrict illegal immigration from exploded feudal orders, forcing them to deal with their own mess, rather than just foisting it on us.
Kirby, we've been over some of this ground about historical religious persecutions in years past on LS, but know that we're reduced to the sketchiest of comments on them in this venue.
In the case of the Spanish Inquisition, while to explain is by no means to applaud all the methods and the resulting persecutions, but in the fall of Muslim Granada in 1492, the 800 year-old Christian reconquista under Ferdinand and Isabella succeeded in retaking the Spanish peninsula, whereupon Muslims and Jews had the choice of conversion or expulsion. The Catholic monarchs had every reason to suspect rebellions (as there later were) and were determined to secure the kingdoms at any cost, including use of the Spanish Inquisition to persecute real or suspected heretics, who were considered to be political enemies of the Christian realm.
Most of Europe went through such period of violent religious persecutions of accused heretics, witches and unbelievers in the
16th century, Germany being a hotbed of such persecutions that took off far more thousands than reliable estimates of deaths at the hands of the Spanish Inquisition.
And it's not just backward Afghanistan where Christians are violently persecuted today, for one could add Egypt and Pakistan, inter alia, to the list. In Saudi Arabia religions other than Islam are all but illegal and cannot be practised, and their intolerant theocratic form of Islam is spreading both to more tolerant Muslim countries and to non-Muslim ones in Europe and beyond. Ask the remaining Jews, for example, in Malmo Sweden if they feel safe from Muslim persecution and violence.
In a lighter vein, I'll agree with you, Kirby, that we should try to hold down the numbers of Spanish inquisitors keen to immigrate to the US as long as there are adequate places for those from traditionally Catholic countries like Austria, Belgium, Ireland, and Poland.
Seems my post might have been too long to get through whole. I'll repost in two segments:
Kirby, we've been over some of this ground about historical religious persecutions in years past on LS, but know that we're reduced to the sketchiest of comments on them in this venue.
In the case of the Spanish Inquisition, while to explain is by no means to applaud all the methods and the resulting persecutions, but in the fall of Muslim Granada in 1492, the 800 year-old Christian reconquista under Ferdinand and Isabella succeeded in retaking the Spanish peninsula, whereupon Muslims and Jews had the choice of conversion or expulsion. The Catholic monarchs had every reason to suspect rebellions (as there later were) and were determined to secure the kingdoms at any cost, including use of the Spanish Inquisition to persecute real or suspected heretics, who were considered to be political enemies of the Christian realm.
Most of Europe went through such period of violent religious persecutions of accused heretics, witches and unbelievers in the
16th century, Germany being a hotbed of such persecutions that took off far more thousands than reliable estimates of deaths at the hands of the Spanish Inquisition.
And it's not just backward Afghanistan where Christians are violently persecuted today, for one could add Egypt and Pakistan, inter alia, to the list. In Saudi Arabia religions other than Islam are all but illegal and cannot be practised, and their intolerant theocratic form of Islam is spreading both to more tolerant Muslim countries and to non-Muslim ones in Europe and beyond. Ask the remaining Jews, for example, in Malmo Sweden if they feel safe from Muslim persecution and violence.
In a lighter vein, I'll agree with you, Kirby, that we should try to hold down the numbers of Spanish inquisitors keen to immigrate to the US as long as there are adequate places for those from traditionally Catholic countries like Austria, Belgium, Ireland, and Poland.
Kirby,
I do not believe I've ever misrepresented the LCMS. I certainly have never intentionally misrepresented the RCC, although I'll admit to having misunderstood it from time to time. I would be grateful if you would stop misrepresenting the ELCA, a confession to which you belonged, and through which you found your faith.
I don't think hierarchy within a voluntary institution is the same as hierarchy within a state.
If you leave a state, you're an ex-patriot. If you leave a religion, you're damned. Voluntary? In the sense that the state does not compel continued membership. Coercion free? Not a chance.
ELCA permits no hierarchy at all really: lay members actually outrank the priesthood in terms of their voting numbers and the power they wield.
You are obviously not familiar with the polity of the ELCA above the congregational level, nor the extent to which lay delegates typically defer to pastoral guidance. Have you ever been a delegate at an ELCA convention? I've been a delegate to three ELCA Metro Chicago Synod conventions, and participated as a youth delegate and a conference organizer for two different Michigan ALC conventions, back in the day.
Point of fact, I: According to Lutheran theology, the laity is contained within the priesthood of all believers. The relevant distinction from a Lutheran perspective is between laity and the ordained, both in your synod and in mine. Point of fact, II: executive authority in the ELCA rests with synodical and church-wide Bishops, and to be a Bishop, you have to have been ordained.
Everyone can be ordained.
This is false, scurrilous. To be ordained, you have to pass through multiple discernment committees, you have to graduate from seminary, you have to be vetted and drafted by a synodical bishop, and you have to be called to the office of word and sacrament within that synod. I am quite certain that Picklesworth would be insulted by the suggestion that "everyone can be ordained." You're insulting people you don't intend to, which is never a good thing.
If you think it's easy, go ahead and get ordained yourself. That way you'll hold the trump in these discussions, and wouldn't need the absent and missed Picklesworth to bail you out.
Any sexual practice is ok.
This too is false, scurrilous. The benchmark is faithfulness, something that heterosexuals have been known to struggle with too. Forgive the crudity, but "fucking the flock" (not my coinage), whether you're hetero or homo, will get you off the roster and with your pension lost about as quickly as replacing communion with a sacrifice to Zeus. If you divorce, whatever the cause, you have resign your current call, and if another congregation does not call you in due course, you're off the roster again.
The Vision and Trust document is going to need revision in light of Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust, but I expect the changes to be the minimum required to bring the two into concord.
I get my sense of the ELCanow through LCMS church circulars, and I don't always catch the spin.
Pickelsworth abandoned us, so now all we have is my two cents and yours.
Idon't want to be ordained, and don' feel that call.
I can't write any more tonight, but think your responses are all good.
I want to get back to law, and ot the notions of a workable law.
Gospel is not workable, so why should it be law?
I think the difference between ;aw and gospel is the difference between this world and the next.
We are fallen so we can't attain sainthood.
So all there is is law.
Kirby,
Idon't want to be ordained, and don' feel that call.
I respect this.
Gospel is not workable, so why should it be law?
Gospel is God's good news for us. Saying that it is not workable puts you in opposition to God, which I submit is not the place to be.
I think the difference between ;aw and gospel is the difference between this world and the next.
An error, IMHO.
We are fallen so we can't attain sainthood.
I concur. Here is my take on this. Individual salvation is much to hard. We cannot do this for ourselves, only God can. But what we can do is save our communities. The Lord's Prayer begins "our Father," and takes the plural throughout, as does the Nicene Creed (although the singular is occasionally used liturgically). These are prayers of community, not merely prayers of an individual. The gospel is not merely about the next world. It is our call to justice, our call to save our own communities, in this world.
What do you expect in the next world? I expect to serve God, as I have in this world. We've been taught to pray, "your kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven." How, in light of Jesus's prayer, can you sustain the belief that God's Kingdom is intended only for the next world?
Stu, I was thinking last night about the ELCA and the disciplining of priests. I can imagine that they would discipline righties but not lefties. I just can't imagine how they could possibly discipline a leftie.
What are the actual numbers of those disciplined?
My sense of their sense of discipline is that it would be somewhat like Obama's control of the Mexican border. Technically he has some kind of command over it (Clinton appointee Susan Bolton has now blocked most of the law which means it goes to appeal).
But I doubt if Obama has any real wish to discipline anyone who is on the left or in any way associated with the left. Law, for leftists, only applies to righties.
Unless I saw some actual numbers of those disciplines and the infractions incurred I would think that the laws of the ELCA were mostly honored in the breach.
James, I loved seeing your defense of Spanish Inquisition, and how it clarified and kept that portion of Europe clear of foreign menace.
When you get closer to a thing ideologically you have more of a sense of the positive rationale for an action.
Probably what I would know best know is the reasons for the positive rationale behind surrealists splinter-groups, including of course, LS.
Kirby,
Stu, I was thinking last night about the ELCA and the disciplining of priests. I can imagine that they would discipline righties but not lefties. I just can't imagine how they could possibly discipline a leftie.
You're delusional. Pastors (not priests!) are disciplined for failing to live up to the personal conduct guidelines in "Vision and Trust." Politics doesn't have a thing to do with it. The ELCA is on average a bit more conservative than the country politically, but given that there is a distribution of views, there are some liberals, some conservatives. My experience is that the rostered members are on average a bit more liberal than the folks in the pews, but there is no disconnect. And of course, variation around the average means that some are quite liberal (like my current pastor) and some quite conservative (like his predecessor, and Mr. Picklesworth). I commend reflection on Picklesworth to you. Knowing what we know of his politics, it is inconceivable that he'd be seeking ordination in the ELCA if it was as you represent it to be.
What are the actual numbers of those disciplined?
I don't know as these numbers are publicly available. My sense, based on specific cases that I'm aware of and conversations over the years with various members of the ELCA Metro Chicago Bishop's staff, is that it's on the order of 2-3/year sexual misconduct cases out of 400-ish congregations, and therefore (accounting for Associates, etc.) I'd guesstimate 600-ish on the roster. I have no idea as to the numbers associated with other kinds of misconduct (e.g., financial). Let me note that I was on the MCS Advisory Committee for Women 18 years ago when the Clergy misconduct scandals really started to blow up in RCC, and that through this committee I lead worshops for rostered members of the MCS on clergy sexual misconduct. I was not a part of the committee that wrote the synodical clergy sexual misconduct policy, but I knew most of the members of that committee, and I was in conversation with them while it was being written.
Given the liability issues involved, most denominations have formal processes for dealing with cases of clergy sexual misconduct. In the ELCA, there is little incentive to err on the side of forgiveness in these cases. A typical trajectory is that the bishop will receive a confidental letter alleging misconduct. The bishop calls the accused in, and asks for their version. In most cases, the transgression is admitted, and the resignation from call is required immediately. Less frequently, a pastor will deny the charges, and this begins an investigation, and ultimately a judicial process. I haven't heard a detailed account of an adversarial derostering, so I really can't speak to the details (e.g., I believe it is the practice that accused pastors are put on leave from call, attached to the bishop's office as temporary staff, and an interrim appointed until the matter is resolved, but I cannot say this with complete certainty).
James, I loved seeing your defense of Spanish Inquisition, and how it clarified and kept that portion of Europe clear of foreign menace.
Erm. If you do a google search for "burning heretics," you'll come across Catholic sources that say that the church never burned heretics, that it was the civil governments who did this. Tell it to Tyndale. It doesn't really matter who struck the match. If you don't believe that the priest was screaming "heresy!" from the pulpit, if you don't believe that he was telling the judge "this man must die!," you have no sense of human nature, and certainly have no sense of how religion and politics were intertwined in Europe in the age of monarchy.
Tell me this: when a king is coronated, who places the crown on their head? Why does this matter?
Kirby, it's true that Spanish ecclesiastical authorities (in the 16th century and after) routinely passed on condemned heretics to the secular arm for execution, though that's not to excuse church authorities from culpability for the horrible persecutions, suffering and death in which they participated.
As I mentioned earlier, heretics were considered in most kingdoms and other principalities (like Calvinist Geneva) as enemies of the political order, which was generally considered then as divinely established or sanctioned.
Yes, politics and religion in those ages were inextricably mixed. As early as the 10th century (particulaly in German lands) the coronation of kings and Holy Roman Emperors was more and more likened to priestly ordination or to the consecration of bishops (Fritz Kern's "Kingship and Law in the Middle Ages" is a good older source). The Investiture Controversy in the
11th century is illustrative of the centuries-long struggle between ecclesiastical and secular authorities for supremacy. But the great age of divine-right monarchy was the 16th century.
I don't consider my remarks a defence of the Spanish Inquisition, but I certainly have no antipathy for Charles Martel's victory over Muslim armies at Tours in 732, the conversion of the Vikings from northern barbaric scourges to Christians, the Crusades in the Holy Land (not to include the horrible and unnecessary persecutions of non-Christians after the taking of Jerusalem in 1099), the Christian reconquista in the Iberian peninsula, the great Christian naval victory (Spain, the Papacy and Venice) over the Turks at Lepanto in 1570 (at which the soldier Cervantes was wounded), the Christian defence of Vienna in 1683, etc.
When things work out for what I imagine to be "our side" I don't look too close at the details, I suppose. I was delighted when the Taliban pushed the Russians out of Afghanistan, for example.
I suppose I prefer the Spanish Catholic, or the Viennese to what would have been Islamic intrusion into Vienna or Spain.
Of course they are there now, but only as guest workers for the most part.
I don't know how to rank Islamic and Communist countries. When they get a headlock on a country, it's a nightmare either way.
Mathmos, I suspect that for Obama it's a mishmash of received ideas that he hasn't thought through very well. Race, gender, class of course is important to him. None of these ideas are any good, but inside of academia they are never or rarely challenged so people inside think they are sound ideas.
Actually, it's just racist and sexist and classist to think along these lines, which is what Obama is discovering. As those ideas hit the mainstream, they will be spit out.
This surprises OBama, and he hasn't got much in terms of a backup.
So his next thing is to get more opaque, and to try to squeeze them through under other names. Basically, he's a redistributionist, but he can't do it on race, and gender lines, because he hits too much opposition.
Sherrod said what about class.
And OBama is down with that.
But many people are thrown into the lower classes for want of principles, want of any sense of the ten commandments, which can help people live organized, moral lives.
Obama knows the ten commandments but like most of the progressives he is thinking ahead, and won't go back to the beginning.
This is why the conservatives actually make sense. They look to the deep past for principles. And they want to conserve them.
The progressives want to trash the past and experiment with new things.
Of course there's not much new under the sun, so they end up making the same farcical mistakes of the left that Stalin and others have already made. They think that because they are better people (we're not mean like Stalin or Mao) they think they will get it right.
But it's a structural problem, not a personality foible.
Once you develop a totalitarian redistribution system, it starts to run itself, and God help us. No one is in control of it.
It's in control of us.
Then you get a slightly paranoid person -- a Kim Jong-Il, a Chavez, a Stalin, a Ceausescu, and suddenly the opposition begins to disappear. TV stations that offer alternative news perspectives are attacked and shut down.
Radio talkshow people are attacked by the government.
There is no tolerance for other viewpoints, and the thing starts to whiplash, and finally, after eighty years, people begin to rediscover older principles, the church, and stand for eternal principles again.
And things stabilize.
and then the whole thing starts all over again.
Obama is setting loose a dangerous process. But he has no idea what he's doing. He's just a bimbo and a jimbob. He's scared. But he can't show it.
He is not entirely an idiot. It's just that his education is so shallow, and his understanding is so shallow. His understanding of himself is almost nothing.
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