
Contemporary Marxist academics often position the Christian right as Nazis. Here's Richard Rorty:
"I see the "orthodox" (the people who think hounding gays out of the military promotes traditional family values) as the same honest, blinkered, disastrous people who voted for Hitler in 1933. I see the "progressivists" as defining the only America I care about" (Philosophy and Social Hope, 17).
He finishes his autobiographical sketch, "Trotsky and the Wild Orchids," by wishing for a "fully secular community" (20).
Using Westboro Baptists (this is about 200 people?) as a metonymic symbol for the 1200 denominations of Protestants (200 million people) strikes me as simplistic and even slightly unfair. But this is more or less what Rorty has done in his equation above.
Let's look at Rorty from the Christian perspective and ask: does he come off as a Satanist? How well do Marxists keep the Ten Commandments? The first commandment is to put God above all else. Marxists want instead to secularize communities, and make their leaders (Obama, or Kim Jong-Il) into deities that can do no wrong, and cannot be criticized. The commandment to obey and honor parents is also nullified (Rorty feels that as a professor his job is to undo a family's spiritual care of their child, and instead make them into Trotskyites). Marxism goes so far as to openly stump for genocide, on the basis of class, gender, and race, and to openly ask us to covet the neighbor's things, and to seek out the things of the flesh (Foucault's entire work -- so popular now -- the most frequently cited theorist in the humanities -- is based on this).
But let's let Rorty speak for himself:
"It seems to me that the regulative idea that we heirs of the Enlightenment, we Socratists, most frequently use to criticize the conduct of various conversational partners is that of ‘needing education in order to outgrow their primitive fear, hatreds, and superstitions’ ... It is a concept which I, like most Americans who teach humanities or social science in colleges and universities, invoke when we try to arrange things so that students who enter as bigoted, homophobic, religious fundamentalists will leave college with views more like our own ... The fundamentalist parents of our fundamentalist students think that the entire ‘American liberal establishment’ is engaged in a conspiracy. The parents have a point. Their point is that we liberal teachers no more feel in a symmetrical communication situation when we talk with bigots than do kindergarten teachers talking with their students ... When we American college teachers encounter religious fundamentalists, we do not consider the possibility of reformulating our own practices of justification so as to give more weight to the authority of the Christian scriptures. Instead, we do our best to convince these students of the benefits of secularization. We assign first-person accounts of growing up homosexual to our homophobic students for the same reasons that German schoolteachers in the postwar period assigned The Diary of Anne Frank... ‘Universality and Truth,’ in Robert B. Brandom (ed.), Rorty and his Critics (Oxford: Blackwell, 2000), pp. 21-2.
It couldn't be more clear that he considers his Christian students to be Nazis who need to be swiftly cult-cracked for his vision of a fully secular utopia to come to fruition.
But who really fought the Nazis? And who fought the Confederates? And who fought Stalin? Wasn't it in many cases the Christians? Lincoln drew on the Christian heritage to argue for the humanity of slaves. When Julia Ward Howe wrote The Battle Hymn of the Republic, she argued that in fighting for the slaves we would be more like Christ. While Hitler tried to murder the Jews, or enslave them, it was Christians who went to their rescue. It was a Christian family that tried to save Anne Frank. Rorty wipes this all out, setting the stage for murderous Trotsky, and the murderous Trotskyites, who helped Stalin to destroy Christian Russia. It was the Christians of Russia (Solzhenitsyn) who stood up to the communists. It was the Christians of Eastern Europe who rose up in Christmas 1989 to overturn the Satanism of the Marxists. Rorty has a bulldozing quality in which he seeks to raze western history and all of America in the name of Marxism, a thoroughly discredited ideology outside of American academia.
Rorty's parents were old Trotskyites, and he was raised among such people. His apple didn't fall too far from the tree.
American Christians are an enormous heterogeneous group with 1200 denominations and lots of variance even within any given denomination. Breaking all Christians, and destroying all their faith, knocking down the Ten Commandments, must have some other agenda behind it. What is it? When asked about his politics, he says,
"...my politics were pretty much those of Hubert Humphrey" (18).
Insofar as I know, Humphrey was the only Lutheran to ever hold the office of president or vice-president.
Rorty's excessively sloppy self-righteous narrative is far from coherent or accurate, even on its own terms. After making the case that all Christians are Nazis because they are "orthodox," he goes on to claim "my politics were pretty much those of Hubert Humphrey" (18). Doesn't he know that Humphrey was a Lutheran -- which makes him on his own terms -- Rorty's terms -- a Nazi?
Flying by the seat of his pants, Rorty's reasonableness just strikes one as unsubstantial and Philistine. And yet he is one of the supposed intellectual giants of the left. When his logic isn't circular it's incoherent.
If he defines Christians as Nazis, and then defines his own politics as that of Humphrey, isn't he saying his own politics are that of the Nazis? Are even Nazis really Nazis in Rorty's terms? Not when they are Martin Heidegger. Heidegger was only a Nazi by chance, Rorty argues on p. 196. He could have been one of us. Therefore, he is one of us. Same goes for Paul DeMan (18). It might be just as reasonable to argue that Rorty could have been a Lutheran, and really was a Lutheran. He himself gives as his sole exemplar of his politics -- Hubert Humphrey -- a Lutheran.
If we want a reasonable, strong, sense of human rights, we should not let go of the Christian tradition. We should in fact turn to it. In almost every case, what the left themselves see as good (Humphrey, or the Scandinavian Lutheran states) are in fact Christian states, which they are just too bigoted to realize are Christian.
The bigotry of Rorty is intense and unthinking and unfounded. Rorty is convinced of his truth, and he still has many readers, each one dumber and more convinced than the next. It will take a miracle to keep them from wrecking the west, but we have seen such miracles before: like the night in December of 1989 when Ceausescu's empire fell, and monks ran through the streets of Bucharest, singing, "God Exists!"
Every day I pray that such a miracle will take place, and that once again, witnesses to the Lutheran tradition will fill our streets, and our institutions. But then again maybe they already do, and just don't realize it yet.
103 comments:
Kirby, an engaging and vigorously written posting, though to your finish I'd add a mutatis mutandis to include my own faith.
I'd add also that Rorty's philosophical work shows the degeneration of what is known as American pragmatism from Pierce to James to Dewey and finally to its nadir with Rorty. Fortunately the better pragmatist strain is currently represented by the British-born philosophy and law professor Susan Haack (U of Miami) who's given Rorty's work a pretty critical going-over (in both senses). She's also argued well against smug moral relativism and PC bigotry (I'd especially recommend her TLS article some years ago, "Staying for an Answer").
Another Kirby manichean classic in which he argues against the existence of monotheistic God, given marxists, nazis, secularists. Yes, quite right--looking at 20th century history one would be quite justified in saying there is no Judeo-christian "God" looking over the human race, and that King Lucifer reigns, or perhaps some type of polydeism..........or Nada.
For that matter, many in Zhukov's army were ...soviets, and not Christians. Whereas many nazis
were xtians, both cat. and prot.. What might be inferrred from that? xtians are hardly always doing the right thing, KO
Io Io
(Rorty was not Wm James. No sh**t. But Wm James was not fond of fundamentalism, either)
Zhukov was a very good general. I read his memoirs and appreciated them. His defense at Stalingrad was brilliantly mastered. I love to watch the Reds and the Nazis slaughter each other. Two Satanic forces meeting and creaming each other. No doubt there were a lot of Christians on both sides caught up in the battle, too.
But even behind the generals there was still Stalin. As soon as Stalin was done with Zhukov and the war he demoted him. At least he didn't kill him. He killed most of the leaders who were top generals for fear that they might develop enough popularity to threaten his rule. Zhukov was sent to some small area perhaps in the Crimea (I can't recall) where he wasted away for twenty years until the thaw under Kruschev.
Then he was finally able to publish his memoirs.
Hitler's generals did better. Many of them received decent treatment (I think the top commander at Stalingrad survived the war, which meant he could reintegrate into German society -- but I don't really know what happened to Hitler's commander -- Pauloff, or something, was his name).
Many of Hitler's generals weren't Nazis. Rommel attempted to end Hitler's life, or at least conspired to kill him. But was caught.
It's not clear to me what the Christian background if any the top generals had. Many of the soldiers under Hitler were Lutheran. We have a flaw. We are supposed to help our leaders as if they are our parents, even when they may not be wonderful or perfect. It's just what we have to do. It's part of our punishment after the fall from Eden.
I actually generally like my bosses.
Fortunately I've never been dragged into a war, and have never even fired a gun. Nor would I.
But the Lutherans under Hitler struggled valiantly against his rule and were one of the only institutions of dissent that survived the war. Stalin left the Lutheran churches intact because he appreciated how hard and long they fought against Hitler.
But of course it was the Lutheran church that brought down the Eastern European capitals. It was a Lutheran bishop that kicked off the revolt in Timisoara, it was a Lutheran church in Leipzig that was the focus of the revolution against Honekker, and it was a Lutheran group in Estonia, and many others, that created an epicenter of revolt against Stalin.
I think it goes back to Luther's revolt against what was then a totally corrupt church. "Here I stand, I can do no other..."
There is a good side to this. I'm not saying only Lutherans or only Christians can be good. We're often not. But where there is goodness to be found, it's often Christian goodness, and Christian decency, even in the writings of the rabid Trotskyites like Rorty, even that repugnant dolt got some things right (Humphrey).
The problem with the Democratic party now is that it's so far from Humphrey. I was a Democrat until Kerry ran as their party's standardbearer. Then BO. What losers.
I'm hoping that Marco Rubio will win for the Repubs next time around.
For the Democrats? Obviously that will be the crypto-Marxist Obama...
But if they were to find someone half-way Lutheran like Senator Paul simon of Illinois (who I actually went door to door for back in the day), I might still switch parties.
I believe in the traditional goals of the Democrats. A strong middle class, better environmental conditions, etc. I just don't think they do. It's become the party of Tammany and the party of intellectual genocide against Christians. In short, the party of Richard Rorty.
James, what are the intellectual journals of the conservatives? I see ISI is putting out a quarterly called The Intercollegiate Review. Its articles are very brief. I just read one by a historian about how the Crusades -- commonly portrayed as Christian bludgeoning of elite and sophisticated Muslims -- was not that way at all, even though many, including the Clintons, have signed on to that view of history.
FIRE of course posts articles about conservatives under fire at their institutions for having the wrong viewpoint. Generally, it seems, FIRE has been able to fight back.
At Duke U, we've both heard the numbers. 3 Republicans in a sea of 600 Democrats in the Humanities (some further left splinter parties).
All the elite universities have numbers like those.
But let's say if there are 6000 universities and only one conservative in each place, that's still enough to float perhaps three good journals. And that's all I think you need. After all, David slew Goliath.
But what are those journals?
I think there is some kind of swing of the pendulum, because I usually represent the absolute center of the country's gravity. What I think, is often what others think, I'm just generally the first to say something.
I was reading through the MLA's new resolution about supporting the Dream Act (which even the Democratic Congress didn't pass). It was put together by the Radical Caucus, an amalgam of Marxists and anarchists, but at least half if not more of the comments are not only negative, but are signed with actual names. The more cogent arguments are from the nay-sayers.
The communists blandly sign on, but their arguments are just, well, we should, blah blah blah.
Without any sense of the bottom line, or how it marginalizes illegals and legals from other countries. Just the same stupid, let's wear our hearts on our sleeves and get preference from each other.
But to my amazement, most didn't sign on.
I think something's changing. But where are the forefronts. Of course there's Fox and Limbaugh, who are crude to a degree, rabblerousers, but I wonder where the more sophisticated Hayekian arguments are appearing. Do you know?
I'm somewhat isolated in this respect.
At any rate, that's part of the reason for the blog. It's like the scene in Terminator 3 in which the future leader of the revolution and his wife have survived the Armageddon and are sending signals and to their amazement there is still a Montana National Guard. I guess that's how I'm using this blog.
I found you this way, and GM, and many others. Many come here to shut me up, but that's part of the fun, I suppose. I like turning them. But of course I haven't turned anyone.
But I did find some conservatives.
Strangely, there seems to be no one left in the center. Or if they do exist, they never write.
The country seems to be polarized and radicalized into far right and far left, and what is perhaps the silent majority in the middle. Does that middle still exist? I think I am still in the middle, though tending toward the conservatives since they are a lot more open about free thought at this juncture.
Perhaps only angry people come out to engage?
Kirby, a few come to mind other than Intercollegiate Review (by the way, was the author of the Crusades article Thomas Madden of St Louis U?--he's very sound):
Modern Age
Academic Questions
First Things
The New Criterion
Hoover Digest (Stanford U)
Education Next (Hoover Institute)
New Oxford Review
Salisbury Review
Also, the Times Literary Supplement features conservative intellectuals' essays and reviews under the editorship of the royalist Sir Ferdinand Mount (if he's still there)--much better than The NYT Review of Books.
You probably know the more politically-inclined popular journals like National Review and The Weekly Standard (features the essays of Joseph Epstein of Northwestern U, former editor of the The American Scholar)
Hope that's a start. Cheers, JADL
JADL, Do you think there are literary journals that still approach literature from an aesthetic perspective?
You know, Literature AS literature, or poetry AS poetry?
Instead of illustrative of a political viewpoint?
I haven't seen this for a dog's age, but it might still exist.
There ARE some aesthetics journals, moving largely toward a neuro viewpoint.
Kirby, The New Criterion features regular essays and reviews on all the arts, and as you can guess from the title, its specialty is modernism. Every issue I've read features poetry and they award a yearly poetry prize.
I've read some essays by Epstein, who was ousted by a cabal of some kind at American Scholar, or so he claimed once in the pages of New Criterion, which I've read many many times. They often have good short essays. I've read First Things and have corresponded with some of their editors. They are nice, and their poetry editor Paul Lake is a Lutheran. I've read some of the others, but not the last four: esp. not Salisbury Review.
I shall look these up.
There used to be a giant liberal nexus with Hayek holding the thing together, but now that whole thing is gone. I liked those guys, but was confused in college why everybody seemed to think Marxism was the real answer.
I thought to myself: haven't you people read Orwell, or Marx himself? Marx thought if we got rid of God, we could all become like God. What kind of logic was that?
A lot of people seem to have fallen for this logic. I never understood why.
It's too weird in places like Iraq and Libya where the government and the chief criminal in the country is one and the same thing. Marxists seemed to always want to make that happen.
Kim Jong-Il, Ceausescu, the list of Marxist rogues is endless. And yet they were also the Chief Justice. It's so baffling that that's what people want.
There is a new book out from Regnery called Gangster in Chief, or something, a new bio of Obama, which claims he's using the government to reward friends and hurt enemies.
But I have a leftist friend who was over here the other night, and he hates OBama for palling around with the corporations like the people at GE. Same problem, but the left have a different framework for it. They see him as helping the corporations, which they sort of reflexively hate.
This guy is a brilliant fine arts painter from Detroit. Who still really supports Obama? Do you think he can win the next roiund, JADL?
If the GOP has anything resembling an organizational structure this is what they will do in 2012:
Run very strong congressional candidates and a weak-but-interesting (read "interesting" as woman/minority) presidential candidate.
That way they will win control of both houses and likely lose to Obama, thereby continuing to be able to put the blame on the Democrats for the sorry state of the economy while laying the groundwork for an extended recovery, thereby being able to secure presidential election from 2016-2028 at least.
On your last question, Kirby, I know from visiting left websites (Crooked Timber, Kos, Hullabaloo, etc.) there's a lot of dissatisfaction that President Obama and the Ds haven't pushed the country nearly far-left enough, though I think for all their squawking the left will carry water for him in 2012. Their visceral hatred for the Rs is simply too great.
More importantly Obama will carry his base--unions, students, ethnics, Brett and stu, crony capitalists, major media (save Fox),etc. It's the independents who'll determine the contest in 2012; Obama's beatable, but he and his minions are pretty cunning politically and they've used every tactic in the book so far to ensure their comeback in the next election.
GM seems keen on Marco Rubio--he's a pretty sharp guy, and may have the public speaking skills to match Obama's.
Honestly I do not quite see how Rorty defines all Christians as Nazis. True he opposed the notion of transcended truth, but he also criticized Foucault for his encompassing notion of power. In his own words taken from a review of Rorty and his Critics, he says, "..there is no objectivity independent of getting in phase with one's fellow humans, with solidarity." Now this maybe a rhetorical trick on which to hand his "social hope," and I can see that critique. But to lump that with a base form of Marxism doesn't seem to fit.
Posted last night, never appeared...
Kirby,
It seems to me that in arguing with Rorty, you're arguing against what is more or less a mirror image of your own views.
You write:
Using Westboro Baptists (this is about 200 people?) as a metonymic symbol for the 1200 denominations of Protestants (200 million people) strikes me as simplistic and even slightly unfair.
It seems to the error you point out in Rorty is essentially identical in form to the error you insist on of collapsing the extraordinary diversity of the American Left into Marxism. In both cases, the rhetorical technique amounts to taking a small and extreme minority of one's opposition, and then arguing as if it was representative of the whole, and then playing out the rhetorical victories against that small minority as if they were victories against a much diverse opposition. In both cases, it's a strawman argument.
And indeed, I'll credit Rorty with slightly more nuance. The extended passage you cite of his speaks not against Christianity per se, but more specifically against fundamentalism, and biblical literalism. But having said this, I'll also note that this makes him somewhat of an intellectual bully. Fundamentalists enter the rationalist arena with grave handicaps. They're absolutely committed to defending everything in scripture as literal truth, and this comes at a terrible cost in intellectual flexibility. It's easy to corner a fundamentalist into accepting a framing of the debate as "faith vs. reason," which, in a rationalist arena, amounts to a de facto concession. It's a lot harder for the Rorty's of the world to shake someone who can read metaphor as metaphor, history as history, and revelation as revelation.
But who really fought the Nazis? And who fought the Confederates? And who fought Stalin? Wasn't it in many cases the Christians?
And who were the Nazis? Who were the Confederates? Indeed, who were the Stalinists? Were they not also in many cases Christians, as well? Indeed, don't you know that some of the current denominational structure of the US (e.g., Baptist vs. Southern Baptist) reflects civil-war era divisions of pre-existing denominations into specifically Northern and Southern pieces, each of which believed that God was on their side in the war? The same is true of many of those who supported and became Nazis. That there were many in the opposition who were motivated by Christian beliefs is a given, and something that we can be justifiably proud of. But this doesn't diminish the reality that it was mostly Christians they were fighting. As for the Stalinists, this is a harder question, but the modern resurgence of the Russian Orthodox Church is certainly suggestive that Soviet suppression of the church was not as effective as they believed it to be, nor indeed as effective as we believed it to be.
Consider our current political context, where people with both religious and political commitments often see a connection between the two. Let's say for the sake of argument that the left prevails in the current political disputes. Would you then accept it if I argued that this is evidence for Christianity, because I'm both a committed Christian, and a political liberal, and these commitments in my mind are linked?
Lincoln drew on the Christian heritage to argue for the humanity of slaves.
Yes, but Lincoln was a far more observant of his fellow man (and far less conventionally religious) than you are. He noted that both North and South invoked God as their support, and that while both could not be right, it was indeed possible that both were wrong. Lincoln understood humility in the face of God, and didn't presume to tell him which side to stand on, but instead, sought to find where God stood, and to position himself there.
Stu, I'll accept that Rorty was an intellectual bully, and I am prepared to accept that he was not an orthodox Stalinist (although I truly doubt if Trotsky would have been one jot better, if you think about the Cronstadt crisis, and his vicious resolution of it through complete annihilation). Not sure how that differs from Stalin's annihilation of the Kulaks except perhaps in terms of numbers.
Not sure about how many Kulaks were disappeared in the 30s. Was it millions? Not sure either whether we could trust the numbers that the Stalinists posted.
Their records don't appear to have been as thorough as those of the Nazis, who were, if nothing else, good notetakers.
If you pay close attention to the one paragraph of Rorty's that I cite, I'm almost certain you can name all ten commandments in their breach.
Stu's right that many denominations were at war in the Civil War. Most of the top confederates (Lee, Davis, and many others of that ilk) were Episcopalian.
It was largely the Baptists who were arrayed against them (and who inspired Lincoln). Today the hideous Trotskyites laugh at the Baptists as fundamentalists. Sometimes getting a few fundamentals down is a good thing.
PS Stu, your comments were in Spam, where I often find them. I think the filter finds anything that goes to two or more destinations as Spam, so if you're sending your comments even to yourself as a record, I think it sends it to Spam. You're the only person who does this, so I rarely remember to look in Spam, unless you're posting quite a bit.
Kirby,
Stu, your comments were in Spam, where I often find them. I think the filter finds anything that goes to two or more destinations as Spam, so if you're sending your comments even to yourself as a record, I think it sends it to Spam.
No dice -- I use the "leave your comment" box, just like everyone else. Maybe you have your spam filters set to block rational thought.
Kirby, I agree that Rorty was a condescending bully and a rather corrosive figure as a left moral relativist, but I like stu's reasoning on this question. As you often do, I think you intentionally throw out controversial opinions in your postings (sometimes with which I wholly agree, other times not so much) to get the ball rolling, fully expecting to be controverted or at least challenged. Keep 'em coming!
Without arguing the point at length or closely, I think in general pragmatism suffered a decline from Pierce's pragmatic theory of meaning to James's pragmatic theory of truth to Dewey's pragmatic theory of value.
Stu, like with beauty, it's always better to ask someone else who's being rational, I suppose.
And yes, perhaps I roll the pins in such a way as to cause anxiety for the reader that the general thrust should have less bias. But I can't believe that anyone is without bias.
I can't know everything and I suppose the way I orient facts has as much to do with my paradigms as anyone's.
Which is not to say that I'm right, and the only rational one here. It's just that I generally like the way I reason better than the way I like the way that other people reason. But even that wouldn't be true.
Maybe blogger just suspects anything coming from the Chicago region, and from the U. of Chicago in particular. I wouldn't know.
Does blogger have a bias?
Maybe you have your spam filters set to block rational thought.
Heh. Yeah that's about it. About one in four of my comments get through.
Like the last one, as in "do you have any proof/cites to establish your ludicrous claim that the CSA was mostly Episcopalian???"
Some virginians may have been Episco. (ie. Lee) but the majority were mainly baptists (including Davis) and presbyterians, maybe a few catholics from around 'Nawlins (including....Beauregard). Breckinridge was presbyterian as were most of his men.
Kirby,
If you pay close attention to the one paragraph of Rorty's that I cite, I'm almost certain you can name all ten commandments in their breach.
I'm doubtful. I get three, and even that involves a stretch: (1) "I am the LORD your God, you shall have no other Gods before me." (4) "Honor your mother and father." (6) "You shall not commit adultery."
(1) Clearly, Rorty puts rationality as God above the LORD. But it also seems to me that the fundamentalists put scripture itself as God above the LORD, putting themselves in the position of using the word of God, as revealed to those long past, as a shield against hearing the word of God as revealed to them in the present. And so Rorty has sails, but neither rudder nor anchor, while his fundamentalist students have rudder and anchor, but no sails. Both configurations are prejudicial to good ship handling.
(4) This is Rorty's framing, and it has to do with his tactics. His students in the classroom are his real objectives, but it hurts him in his ability to win them if he frames them as his opponents. So he frames their absent parents as opponents, and offers his students (who may well be feeling a need to assert themselves as independent) an opportunity to take a stand with him against them. But how is this Rorty's problem? Isn't it the students? I'd argue that it's both. Our obligation both here, and in (6), is to support the integrity of relationships, and this obligation extends beyond those relationships that we are a part of.
(6) This is a speculative stretch. Rorty invokes the use of first-person homosexual narratives as a tonic to anti-homosexual attitudes prevalent among fundamentalists. But the ten commandments do not proscribe homosexuality -- you have to look to Leviticus, or to read Romans 1:26-27 without understanding its context within 1:18-19 and 2:1-3 to get there. The question of adultery turns on whether or not those first-person narratives involve promiscuity, or even more precisely, the compromising of relationships through sexual behavior. Rorty is speaking specifically of accounts that are intended to invoke empathy in a reader who has a strict relegious background. Accounts that involve promiscuity are unlikely to do so -- they'll just confirm the pre-existing prejudices he's seeking to overturn. And so pragmatic considerations suggest that the accounts he assigns have more to do with psychological tensions, yearnings, oppression, etc., than serial partners or explicit depictions of sexualized behavior.
But I surely don't see sabboth breaking, stealing, murdering, false witness or coveting, whether of wives or of goats.
JADL,
I like stu's reasoning on this question.
Thank you.
Ok, here are the ten commandments as defined by Luther. Let's go through them, and see which ones Trotskyite Rorty abrogates. I will post the commandment followed by a short comment that precedes with a --:
1. I am the LORD your God, you shall have no other gods before me.
-- Not only does he scorn this, but he scorns those who hold to it. His god is Marx, as instantiated by Trotsky: a murderous SOB who liquidated the soldiers of Cronstadt whose only crime was to ask for freedom of speech, especially for the anarchists. I assume Rorty would have dealt with the anarchists, after the Baptists and others, as Trotsky would have done, and as Stalin later did: with murderous liquidation.
2
You shall not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain.
Respect
Holiness
Respect for God and the things of God: prayer, worship, religion.
-- How would you say that Trotskyite Rorty upholds this commandment?
3
Keep holy the Sabbath day.
-- Are you saying that he upholds this?
4
Honor your father and your mother.
-- Trotskyite Rorty actively assassinates the love of children for their parents and argues that they were monsters, and he, a saint, to deliver them from their family's "superstitions."
5
You shall not kill.
Respect For Life
Courtesy to all, speaking respectfully to all, seeking the best for all.
-- How on earth does Trotskyite Rorty not abrograte this commandment? Not only is he merciless toward his opponents, turning them into kindergarteners in his document, but then says he has the right to brainwash them out of their superstitions. What courtesy does he show, what respect? Is there any at all?
6
You shall not commit adultery.
Chastity
Faithfulness (Fidelity)
Faithful actions beyond just abstaining from sexual contact outside of marriage. Respect for sex and marriage.
-- I do not see any respect for sex or marriage in his statements here. It's not clear to me what kinds if any sexual activity he would proscribe. Foucault said there should be no such thing as a sexual crime: even child prostitution was something that he thought should be sanctioned (Foucault availed himself of this when he lived in Sweden as a young man). Foucault later continued to have sex with young men even after he knew he had AIDS. Rorty may not have been quite such a monster in this regard (I don't know if Rorty signed on to the general postmodernist love of the Marquis de Sade as a hero to be worshipped, as he was virtually worshipped by some of the surrealists and later the poststructuralists and postmodernists).
7
You shall not steal.
Justice (Honesty)
Concern for the rights of others, especially when they get in the way of what we desire. A commitment to fairness and a willingness to suffer loss rather than depriving another.
-- Communism IS theft.
8
You shall not bear false witness.
Truth
A dedication to what is real and true, even if that reality is against our interests.
-- Does Trotskyite Rorty speak the truth and the whole truth about his Christian neighbors and students? Or is he just a violent bigot?
9
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
Purity
A desire to want only what God wills. A single-hearted devotion to God's way.
-- Perhaps he is not guilty of this one, at least not in this particular passage that I cited.
10
You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.
-- Marxism IS the coveting and hence the legitimate stealing of others' goods, followed by "redistribution" which really means handing out others' property to your homies, usually after committing genocide against those whose original property it was (see Stalin's note on "The Liquidation of the Kulaks").
Alexander Berkman and Emma Goldman's notes on Trotsky could help to corroborate the Trotskyite mendacity and lies that Rorty willfully ignores. In his supercilious condemnation of the Christians, Rorty's own background is quite questionable. While there is a small sect of Westboro Baptists who have been quite hateful toward homosexuals, it is not a general Christian trend. But the wholesale slaughter of Christians by Marxists, on the other hand, is very well-documented, and is ongoing in places like Vietnam and China, to name only two places. In Romania under Ceausescu the slaughter of Christians by Marxists was practically an industry. I don't think you can compare one very aberrant but tiny church (Westboro) with what the Khmer Rouge did, or what Mao did during the Cultural Revolution to all opponents of his regime. The bigoted violence of the Bolsheviks (of which Trotsky was a part until he lost out in a factional dispute) included the destruction of all members of the left and right who stood against them, denying them not only freedom of speech but even life itself.
I don't see that the Westboro baptists have gone anywhere close to that far. Indeed, the Supreme Court has recently exonerated them from any wrongdoing, and has said that they were within their right to protest at military funerals with their strange and ugly notion that our soldiers are being killed because the military has accepted gays.
The other side of this is that even now after DADT has been rescinded (Rorty's one talking point which hits home) some major schools such as Columbia will still not allow the military to recruit on their campuses.
ROTC does exist at Columbia as a student organization called Alexander Hamilton society, I think.
What would Rorty think? My guess is he would still be against the American military. but it's only a guess. I assume DADT was just a dodge for a much deeper hatred for America and its institutions.
J asks how Romney could be considered a presidential contender when he's a Mormon. I personally see the Mormons as far closer to Biblical norms than were Obama's church under Reverend Wright.
Even Obama has distanced himself from Wright, and has denounced his pastor of twenty years. How would J compare Obama's church and Romney's?
A reading of the First Amendment further argues that there is no establishment of religion: freedom of religion is a right that we all enjoy, and it is also linked to freedom of speech. All Americans, regardless of denomination of lack thereof, have the right to hold their beliefs, and to express them, and to seek office. This is not something I see respected in Trotskyite Rorty's paragraph (I'm only citing one paragraph!), but it is nevertheless the very basis of American law. Naturally Romney has the right to run for president. Does J say that he doesn't? We also have the right to vote for him. His party is legal, and his viewpoint is legal.
Furthermore, I see his viewpoint as closer to the center of American life than that of Obama, which almost everyone on all sides who has studied Obama closely agrees that he has a strong Marxist background, not only from his father, and from his mentor Frank Marshall Davis, but from the professors he sought out in college, and the czars with whom he surrounds himself (at least one of whom was a member of a Maoist splinter group in San Francisco).
Can you imagine Romney surrounding himself with Marxists and Maoists, and taking them seriously?
None of the founders would have found Marxism as anything but abhorrent. Marxism is a completely alien tradition.
Our greatness as a nation rests on the legitimation of a mixed economy, freedom of speech, and free and fair elections that Madison and Hamilton and even to some extent Jefferson stood for (Jefferson had the nutty notion that we would all be gentleman farmers like him, but Hamilton was a lot more diverse in terms of his understanding of free trade and free speech).
I think Romney would be recognizable to the Founders. Romney is basically a businessman, much like Hamilton. Obama, not. Obama doesn't understand anything about business.
I keeping hoping he will change. With Obama, there's always hope for change.
Kirby, in your post on Cry Cry Baby, you did not uphold the first, second, fourth, or seventh commandment.
Brett, say why.
http://www.collegehillreview.com/006/0060501.html
Here's a journal article that finds a use for Marx that's not explicitly Satanic. It also finds a use for Freud that keeps him in perspective. Was Kafka surrealist? What does Rorty make of Kafka?
Kirby,
2
You shall not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain.
...
-- How would you say that Trotskyite Rorty upholds this commandment?
This is a shifting of the goal posts. You claimed that Rorty breached all of the ten commandments in that one paragraph. That claim doesn't stand. Nor, indeed, does it necessarily follow that Rorty would necessarily be taking the name of the LORD in vain. Honestly, there's not much incentive for an atheist (if that's what he is) to invoke the LORD as a witness.
3
Keep holy the Sabbath day.
-- Are you saying that he upholds this?
Same as above. You're shifting the goal posts. Rorty's paragraph doesn't mention either Saturday or Sunday (both reasonable interpretations of "the sabboth").
5
You shall not kill.
...
-- How on earth does Trotskyite Rorty not abrograte this commandment? Not only is he merciless toward his opponents, turning them into kindergarteners in his document, but then says he has the right to brainwash them out of their superstitions. What courtesy does he show, what respect? Is there any at all?
Actually, there is no evidence presented that he's discourteous, or merciless, only that his beliefs are different from those of some of his students, and that he feels an obligation to win them over. This isn't murder, Kirby, it's free speech, and free debate. And his use of "kindergarten" was explicitly set up as a metaphor for "bigot." Come on, you can read more honestly than that. And certainly there is zero evidence of him having killed anyone, either in thought or deed.
I'll skip 6, although what Focault's ethical failings have to do with Rorty is beyond me. You'd do better to argue against one opponent at a time.
7
You shall not steal.
...
-- Communism IS theft.
The early christian communities were communal, even going back to Jesus and his disciples. And even if communism were theft, I don't see Rorty arguing for communism in the paragraph cited.
8
You shall not bear false witness.
...
-- Does Trotskyite Rorty speak the truth and the whole truth about his Christian neighbors and students? Or is he just a violent bigot?
I think it is absolutely clear that he is telling the truth as he believes it. The test of this commandment isn't in whether or not he tells the truth as you see it, but whether or not his commitment to truth (as he sees it) is sufficient to override self-interest.
For example, you make a big deal of Kronstadt. If Rorty argued that Kronstadt didn't happen, knowing that it did, because the admission would be an embarrassment, then he'd be guilty of false witness. But this hasn't been demonstrated.
10
You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.
-- Marxism IS the coveting and hence the legitimate stealing of others' goods, followed by "redistribution" which really means handing out others' property to your homies, usually after committing genocide against those whose original property it was (see Stalin's note on "The Liquidation of the Kulaks").
That's one construction. Jesus might say, though, that all we have is the LORD's, and so, what are our neighbor's goods but God's?
Kirby,
The other side of this is that even now after DADT has been rescinded (Rorty's one talking point which hits home) some major schools such as Columbia will still not allow the military to recruit on their campuses.
I know, it's hard to keep up.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/senate/militaryengagement/
Columbia is in the midst of a formal process of reconsidering it's ban on ROTC with an eye to repealing that ban. (I don't know about military recruiting specifically, but here the issue was always tied to law schools, and I'd expect Columbia to follow the Harvard solution.) I don't know Columbia's polity all that well, but institutions with meaningful faculty governance take longer to institute policy changes than institutions like Harvard (where a Law School Dean is all-powerful).
So, how exactly does this map onto your values? Do you prefer Columbia's more deliberative and consultive style (even at the cost of a slower response on issues that matter to you), or do you prefer Harvard's more authoritarian style?
What would Rorty think? My guess is he would still be against the American military. but it's only a guess. I assume DADT was just a dodge for a much deeper hatred for America and its institutions.
I'm not sure I buy this. The generation that was formed by resistance to the Vietnam War and all of the instutitions involved in persecuting it stands on the threshold of retirement, while their students are generally past them to younger, more vigorous faculty.
There is certainly an ambivalence—the notion of authority is fundamentally different between the military and academia, but the military has also been an effective agent of positive social change (especially on race relations, both in 1863-5, and again, from the mid-1950's into the present.). But I see this ambivalence as being fundamentally healthy. We should, as academics, approach other institutions and other sets of values with open minds, and not having prejudged the question one way or the other. Again, it seems to me that you're seeing your own sins in Rorty through a mirror.
Stu, my point with regard to Rorty's paragraph is that he sees all Christians from HIS viewpoint. I wanted to turn the telescope around, and see how all Christians might see him. If the Ten commandments is the basic creed of Christians and Jews, how does Rorty stack up? Some of the stacking is of course second-order implication, and some comes from the title of his autobiography (also cited) in which he cites the two great loves of his life, Trotsky and wild orchids, and it's only a series of possible takes.
He does say in another place that he hopes "the law of love" will be the only law that's left when the secularists take over. I find that preposterous, given what has happened when they have: The Khmer Rouge, to take an instance. But I do think that a cracked Pot like Pol did think he was operating under the law of love when he murdered 1.7 million Cambodians at about the time rorty had reached his apogee as an apologist for Marxism (does he ever note Pol Pot?).
Rorty doesn't technically murder his students, but he does feel that they should be reeducated, and that their prior viewpoint should be completely annihilated, along with any love that they might have felt for their parents, or for the old time religion of their parents. It's the year 0 with Rorty, all over again.
Yes, let's all allow Rorty to have the only say in the classroom. He is, after all, the Fuhrer.
How did he deal with students who argued with him, or who refused to throw their families under the bus, in order to follow Richard into the wilds of proto-Bolshevism?
the only reason the Trotskyites didn't murder as many people as the Stalinists is that the Stalinists murdered them first. when they did have the chance to murder those who opposed them, Trotsky liquidated as many as Stalin. After Cronstadt, he ordered 1500 Red sailors shot without trial (this is according to Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman's testimony).
The two kingdoms approach is far better in terms of cooling people down. When you love everybody you might be too exacting. I think it's far better to be left alone, and to just have the law.
The early Christians thought the Second coming was imminent. Two thousand years later we should realize we are in this for the long haul, and therefore have to develop mechanisms that provide for a real economy (Trotsky wanted to destroy the private economy just as Stalin did), and we need to build mechanisms that protect businessmen from the predations of the Cyclopsean state.
Property should be a right: the first, and most important of rights.
The left take themselves seriously as progressive. Usually the word is reserved for creeping diseases.
Kirby,
You know, it occurred to me that your "violates all ten of the ten commandments" exercise might be applied to Donald Trump, and in a far more compelling manner. After all, much of your critique of Rorty was via guilt-by-association, based on your particular interpretation of communism (and your laughable identification of Stalinist thugocracy with American intellectual communism), whereas in Trump's case, the sins are pretty much personal, and out there for everyone to see. The only one that seems moderately problematic is murder, but I'm pretty sure I could work out links between Trumps (many) financial failures, and suicides among former investors/employees. Heck, you set the bar for murder in Rorty's case at mere discourtesy, and I'm pretty sure that you could document that and worse with any "Apprentice" tape.
Stu, you're not following my argument, which is that the fundamentalists that Rorty scorns and feels he has the right to brainwash could view him through their own lens, and find him even more wanting in moral attainment.
Trump doesn't scorn fundamentalists insofar as I know so let's leave him out of this. It's just that if you're going to excoriate a group you might want to do an objective comparison of traits.
You, too, apparently scorn fundamentalists, and conservatives.
This is based in Rorty's text on fundamentalists holding to the law against homosexuality as it's spoken to Moses in Leviticus, in which God speaks in the first person, and tells us we should stone the gays.
Fundamentalists may hold to the literal word of the Bible as a law that rises above that of civil law. This might lead to some outrageous actions such as the shooting of abortion doctor George Tiller in a pew at his Lutheran church.
But in general the fundamentalists do at least HAVE morals. They are holding to the ten commandments. You are not going to get the kind of genocide that the Marxists practiced. You are not going to have the kind of killing fields that the Khmer Rouge put in place, or the complete destruction of classes that Stalin put in motion.
Rorty as a Trotskyite is not responsible for those actions, but Trotsky's brief transit through power did contain specific atrocities, such as the order to gun down 1500 red sailors after the Cronstadt uprising. Without trial.
Had Trotsky killed Stalin, the same kind of mass murder would probably have occurred because that's what Marxism mandates -- the total destruction of other classes. That this toxic waste has leaked into the Democratic party via race, gender mavens, is worrying. Because it mandates the destruction of other entire groups.
The fundamentalists are conservatives who keep God's word. One can count on them to keep the Ten Commandments. They won't steal, they won't have adulterous affairs, they will be honest, they will honor their parents, etc.
Marxists, on the other hand, like Rorty, will use their intolerance on the homosexual issue to destroy them entirely. But Marxist morality is far worse, even if it does accept any kind of sexuality (Foucault argues that there should be no such thing as a sexual crime.)
I was strictly comparing the Marxist and the fundamentalist tradition. I find the fundamentalists superior to Marxists. Progressives (who are in fact Marxists, at least in Rorty's case, and in many others, too, although they rarely admit it) leave behind our entire tradition in order to allow for liberalization of sexuality. But then we also get mass murders, lies, the destruction of rights to private property, long held in American law, and the destruction of lots of other things.
If I were to hire a Marxist or a fundamentalist for president, I would choose the fundamentalist hands down. You could count on a fundamentalist to be basically honest and to follow the ten commandments.
What you get with a Marxist is a mass murderer with the conscience of an angry wolverine.
I don't know why you can't see this.
Fundamentalists have the problem of using the Scripture to trump common law (at times).
But Marxists have this same problem.
Where Lutherans differ from both sides is that we feel that common law trumps ecclesiastic Law in this sphere. Or at least that's my line. The law matters, and you can't break it even if you don't agree with it. You can of course attempt to change it, but you can't abrogate it.
Fundamentalists, like Antigone, or Marxists, like Thoreau, believe they know better.
The other problem with the Marxists has to do with their hatred of a functional economy. When the World Trade Center towers came down, many of them exulted. It wasn't just Ward Churchill.
It was a general chorus.
This wrecked New York State's economy, and we're still reeling from it.
How did OBL get legitimation from within his religion for this?
I don't know.
No government has sanctioned his actions.
But he felt he could go beyond the law.
I liked the World Trade Center, and Hamilton's strong notions of free trade. I like the Stock Exchange, and the national banks he set up. Hamilton was a logistical genius who supplied the Revolutionary army, and got our economy on a sound basis, and got us into manufacturing our own things.
Marxists don't like this, and many Christians feel very uncomfortable with economics. I find this to be what's pulling many together in the left toward a Reverend Wright-like synthesis.
It isn't right.
I strongly prefer the economics of Hamilton. Freedom can only come from individual property, and a good strong economy.
Kirby, I read the autobiographical excerpt you quoted from in your posting on Richard Rorty, and I think in general you've captured his position on the culture wars well.
He does divide Americans culturally between the "orthodox" and "post-modernist" or secularist and thinks his mission is to convert the students under his charge to a secularist view. He rejects Plato, Aristotle, and Kant (and the whole neo-Aristotelian tradition at the U of Chicago, including Hutchins, Adler, McKeon, Strauss, and Bloom), for "the whole idea of holding reality and justice in a single vision had leen a mistake." His abandonment of the search for objective truth and its connection with virtue also has political ramifications in his respective assessments of the "orthodox" and "post-moderns":
"I think that the 'postmoderns' are philosophically right though politically silly, and that the 'orthodox' are philosophically wrong as well as politically dangerous. Unlike both the orthodox and the postmoderns, I do not think that you can tell much about the worth of a philosopher's views on topics such as truth, objectivity and the possibility of a single vision by discovering his politics, or his irrelevance to politics."
So it seems his mission in converting his student away from what he calls "orthodoxy" to secularism has not only a philosophical component, but also a quasi-religious one that could be ironised as "belief in disbelief." And he does include Marx and Trotsky [!] as exemplifying the best political and moral traditions of the Enlightenment. Politically he says he feels
"no need to be judicious and balanced in my attitude toward the two sides this first sort of culture war. I see the 'orthodox' (the people who think that hounding gays out of the military promotes traditional family values) as the same honest, decent, blinkered, disastrous people who voted for Hitler in
1933. I see the 'progressivists' as defining the only America I care about."
Kirby, I neglected to add to my posting the last sentence: "What Rorty seems to exemplify in his cultural and political attitudes is what might be called 'The Higher Bigotry.'"
DeLater says:
"More importantly Obama will carry his base--unions, students, ethnics, Brett and stu, crony capitalists, major media (save Fox),etc. It's the independents who'll determine the contest in 2012; Obama's beatable, but he and his minions are pretty cunning politically and they've used every tactic in the book so far to ensure their comeback in the next election.
GM seems keen on Marco Rubio--he's a pretty sharp guy, and may have the public speaking skills to match Obama's."
It's pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that Obama intended from the start to make his administration as Centrist as he could. That was largely the strategy of Clinton, which worked well for him until Ken Starr got a whiff of that jism on the dress.
It's a fact that Obama's offended more of his own base than he has of Republican skeptics. He's delivered on very little of his espoused program. The stimulus legislation served its initial, temporary purpose, but the real problems are still looming for both parties. If the Repubs expect enormous cuts in government services and programs in the next session, they're going to have to give up the big tax break position they've been holding back on.
If the U.S. is going to dig its way out of this economic hole, it's going to need to take a more isolationist view internationally, and look inward towards its best interest. That will mean not only balancing its books, but seeing that the only signs of prosperity can't simply be the salaries of the CEO's and the interest returns for the biggest investors.
The U.S. was well on its way to balancing its books, when Bush started those wars, and the Congress declared that surpluses should be "returned to the people" instead of being used to pay down the debt. Those were the defining moves in the Bush years. Not doing those things would not have prevented the Stock Market and real estate bubbles, or the brokerage scandal which followed, but it would have kept us out of the woods, where we're now lost without a flashlight.
The "difficult choices" we're now addressing would never have been at issue, had we not spent those surpluses between 2001 and 1009.
Anyone who is genuinely committed to balancing the budget can't defend the Bush Era tax cuts any longer. The Republicans can always claim they were "forced" into this by circumstances--just as the Dems can claim the same coercion in their vote to prosecute our "wars of choice"--it's all about saving face in the name of necessity.
The tax breaks are doomed. Repubs need to get over it. Your heroes are going to have to give up the company jet, and settle for a limo instead.
One thing I tire of is the way Kirby responds to anyone criticizing his viewpoint or promoting different views -
That this is akin to prohibiting his own viewpoint.
blahblah, get over it, stop claiming the victim stance...
You're like Dr. Laura claiming her 'first amendment rights' were taken away...
I didn't understand what or where Brett was responding to.
Kirby,
Stu, you're not following my argument, which is that the fundamentalists that Rorty scorns and feels he has the right to brainwash could view him through their own lens, and find him even more wanting in moral attainment.
Ooo. Man's enemies believe him to be evil. Details at 11:00.
Trump doesn't scorn fundamentalists insofar as I know so let's leave him out of this.
No, let's not. Trump lies about Obama, one of his enemies. That would be commandment #8, for those keeping score at home. But you've decided not to hold his sins against him, because you support him as a potential Republican candidate for President, while at the same time, you're holding your opponent's sins against them as being all important indicators of character. This is hypocracy.
You, too, apparently scorn fundamentalists, and conservatives.
That is too strong. For one thing, I consider myself to be conservative in a number of principled ways, e.g., ecological consciousness, the idea that we are stewards of God's creation, is a conservative value. Sound financial management, both in public and in private finances are conservative values. Relational integrity and sexual continence are conservative values that I share and value.
I just think that the label "conservative" is grossly misapplied when it comes to the Tea Party, which is xenophobic, unilateralist, financially irresponsible, anti-intellectual, and profoundly dishonest.
Fundamentalism is, according to my beliefs, misguided. I respect the passion that Christian fundamentalists have for their faith, but I'll note that passion for the faith is hardly exclusive to fundamentalists. Moreover, I'll note that fundamentalism is not an exclusively Christian phenomenon. You're perfectly capable of spitting out the word "fundamentalist" as a term of derision, if the preceding word is "Islamic."
This is based in Rorty's text on fundamentalists holding to the law against homosexuality as it's spoken to Moses in Leviticus, in which God speaks in the first person, and tells us we should stone the gays.
There's a lot of other directives in Leviticus, no less stringent, no less authoritative, of which we ignore. If we're going to pick and chose, let's at least be honest about it. Leviticus requires that we not mix milk with meat. If you eat lasagna, appeals to Leviticus are as likely to damn you as your opponents. If you cut your sideburns, you're as libel to the fire as they are. I think it is perfectly reasonable to point out that fundamentalists are sophists, not literalists, in their use of the old testament.
Fundamentalists may hold to the literal word of the Bible as a law that rises above that of civil law.
This is demonstrably false, as above. They use it when it suits their purposes as a law that rises above civil law. Sophistries like this deserve derision.
But in general the fundamentalists do at least HAVE morals. They are holding to the ten commandments.
As far as I can tell, the US South is and was a hotbed of fundamentalism. Whipping slaves, raping their wives and daughters, killing the freedmen who weren't servile, selling their children. Damn fine morals there, you should be proud.
And what of modern fundamentalists? The big televangelists who have homosexual affairs, or run off with the offering plate to visit prostitutes? This is not exceptional behavior for men in power, and while the fundamentalists may not have a worse record than humanity generally, they don't seem to have a better one, either.
You bid a Rorty, I'll raise you a Hagee and a Swaggart.
But in the end, my argument is that fundamentalism vs. communism is a false dichotomy. Both are so wrong as to make it pointless to argue which is better.
I think what Brett is saying is that Kirby's responses have a generic passive-aggressive "victimization" quality which is evasive.
Meeting criticism at the point of real disagreement is always more difficult than being "hurt" or resorting to ulterior fall-backs. "If you don't treat me more respectfully, I'm going to file for divorce!"
But we're only talking on blogs, not trying to live together.
The big plantations in the South were almost exclusively Episcopalian.
the Baptists fought HARD against slavery.
As they fight now against abortion.
You might not like their principles, but they do have them, those fundies.
They are the ones walking in fire with every step. I like them. They were not the ones whipping slaves. Let's get at least this one thing right, Stu. Maybe we all need to stop and research this problem.
Baptists were never the wealthy plantation owners. Baptists had no money and sympathized with slaves. If they had a slave it would have been one or two. If you whipped a slave, it was to send a message to the other slaves. But if you had only one, there was no point in hurting him.
It made no sense.
But then it was the Democratic party that accepted slavery at the time, while the Republicans were the ones who fought against it.
Curtis argues that we should have never gone to war in Afghanistan or Iraq. I might agree with the second. But we had to fight in Afghanistan. The attack of OBL on the WTC was an enormous cost to the country. We couldn't have two of those.
So we had to fight back.
The strategy in Iraq was to surround Iran with trouble, and to hope we'd get three Democracies in a row. That may yet happen.
The war with the Soviets wasn't cheap, but we won.
We can't be isolationist in a world where anybody can get anywhere in 20 hours.
I'm sorry if it seems like I play the victim card. I don't think I do that. However, if I do, then I should start to do it openly.
I can only remember once or twice complaining at the ferocity of a hit.
Kirby,
Baptists were never the wealthy plantation owners. Baptists had no money and sympathized with slaves.
If this was really true, then there would have been no reason for the American Baptist church to have divided into two separate denominations during the run-up to the Civil War. But it did divide, because the southern Baptist church did not share the abolitionist beliefs of their northern co-denominationalists. And more than that, it stayed divided (unlike, e.g., the Episcopalian Church, whose northern and southern halves reconciled post-war).
Moreover, if you go through the south state-by-state, you'll find that Southern Baptists are often the largest single denomination in the state, sometimes approaching a majority in and of themselves. And these are the former slave states, the states that succeeded, the states that had very large participation of eligible white men in the armed forces of rebellion, states that created "Jim Crow" laws post reconstruction, and sustained them with large electoral (i.e., white) majorities.
I've read a lot of civil war histories. I've yet to read of any significant fifth-column of whites within the south that effectively opposed slavery or the confederacy itself. No, what I've read that is that the lowest classes of whites enthusiastically supported slavery and Jim Crow, because as long as the blacks were lower than them, they weren't at the bottom.
But then it was the Democratic party that accepted slavery at the time, while the Republicans were the ones who fought against it.
True enough, but another way of saying the same thing is that it was the party dominated by the south that accepted slavery and Jim Crow, and the party dominated by the north that fought against them. That the parties "changed places" in terms of regional base during the 60's muddies the water considerably in terms of retrospective guilt assignment vz. slavery and Jim Crow.
Curtis argues that we should have never gone to war in Afghanistan or Iraq. I might agree with the second. But we had to fight in Afghanistan. The attack of OBL on the WTC was an enormous cost to the country. We couldn't have two of those.
I agree that we had to act against bin Laden, and that the decision of the Taliban to provide him sanctuary forced our hand w.r.t. war. My complaint there is that the Bush administration chose to enter into a second, unjustified war, and that that the force commitments necessary to sustain that war diluted our efforts in the Afghan theater, and this is what has condemned us to a long war, and very likely a war without a satisfactory conclusion.
Kirby, I think it evident from reading Rorty's autobiographical excerpt that his targets for conversion (namely, "orthodox" students of any variety) to secularism and "post-modernism" are not restricted to fundamentalist students. I think the several excerpts I quoted (which you partly included at the beginning of your posting) from Rorty seem to vindicate your views on Rorty's position in the "culture wars," even though that may not be evident from the long quotation where Rorty speaks of fundamentalists. He did draw something of the post-modernist view (not necessarily uncritically) from Foucault, a truly dangerous and malignant personality on the left.
Contra Faville, what Judge Starr sniffed out was very good evidence of President Clinton's perjury and obstruction of justice, for which he was impeached and for which at least he was disbarred.
For those on the left who believe business doesn't create jobs or wealth and that all wealth really belongs to the "people," that is, the government, which in turn decides how much to bestow upon various classes and kinds of the citizenry in thrall (as well as upon those who are not even legally entitled to reside in this country), the prospect of tax increases will always have the appeal of "social justice."
But it's not just the wealthy who will be forced to pay more. In effect the left and the Obama administration want all Americans to pay more for food, energy, and all goods through its defeatist energy and fiscal policies (blocking development of recognised domestic sources of energy, promoting ethanol subsidies, promoting inefficient and costly "green" projects, adding to inflation by dramatically inflating the money supply, etc.). But from what I've seen of Rep. Ryan's proposals, I'm encouraged that the Rs have at least some tentative plan for balancing the budget eventually.
Kirby,
A bit of poking around on the internet makes some points that might clarify the debate. Roughly 1/3 of all white families in the south owned a slave, and about 1/2 aspired to. The way the numbers work out, this means that there were either a heck of a lot of southern baptist slave owners, or, the southern baptists were essentially the only segment of southern society that didn't aspire to owning slaves. But in the later case, why split?
Moreover, even if I grant the entirely ludicrous proposition that the southern baptists were essentially coextensive with the subpopulation of the south that didn't aspire to own slaves, you're still in rhetorical trouble: there is a large proportion of southern society that's fundamentalist and not baptist, and this leaves you with the practical problem of reconciling fundamentalist slave owners (of which there were legion) with the notion that fundamentalists are faithful followers of the ten commandments. This is only possible if you believe that slavery, as practiced in the south, was consistent with following the ten commandments. I don't believe that's an argument you want to make.
No matter how you try to fit the demographics, there's no avoiding the fact that there were a heck of a lot of fundamentalist slave owners in the south, and a heck of a lot of fundamentalists supporting Jim Crow. Walking with fire in their step doesn't count for much if they use it to burn crosses.
I have to smile when stu goes into his "slowly I turned . . ." routine on the Tea Party. As if advocating lower taxes, fiscal responsibility, national security and sovereignty, and less federal government regulation are "profound dishonest." Just major media and left-wing hype about the TP. Compare the actions of Tea Party supporters' at rallies with those of recent union, left-wing, and student protests (better: "rage-fests"), and the Tea Party comes off pretty well. So much for the left's credibility on the "civility" issue. Now even D politicians are yelling about Rs' modest budget reductions "killing" women, children, and the elderly. What utter dishonesty!
And if stu bids preachers like Hagee and Swaggart, I'll bid thugs like Trumpka, fire-breathing nutters like Wright and Farrakhan (who does oppose the President in opening a third war against his buddy and fellow meglomaniac Gaddafi), and radical anti-American radicals like the former terrorists Ayers & Dohrn.
I spent about a minute looking up "prominent role of Episcopalians in the Confederacy," and came across a course taught at Wake Forest University with the following sentence in the lecture hand-out:
"Perhaps one of the more surprising aspects of the Religion of the Lost Cause is the prominent role played by Episcopalians. The Confederate Army's leadership had been laced with Episcopalians such as Lee, Leonidas Polk, William Hardee, John B. Hood, and Joseph E. Johnston, and many of the principle preachers of the Lost Cause also were Episcopalian."
I'll try to find some more links. The Episcopalians were the only church to pay reparations to former slaves, another sign of their guilt. Will try to find a few more to lay on the fire so you guys can roast marshmallows and sing more songs of Johnny Reb the Episcopalian, rather than the fundamentalist.
But remember, we're talking about large plantations, not one or two slaves. I only made the case that plantations that owned a thousand or more slaves were predominantly Episcopalian. Stu tried to change this numbe to sheer number of people who WANTED to own slaves but couldn't. Heck, there are some days I would want to own a slave. It doesn't mean that I own one, or actually would, if I could. These are different things.
The article I read on plantation life (Wikipedia) said that there were fewer than 100 slaveowners in the state of Virginia in 1860 who had more than 100 slaves. So we're probably talking about around 1500 families that had more than 100 slaves. Yes, there were others, far less than a third, but they often ate supper together with their slaves (where else were they going to find a table?), and there wasn't all the whipping that you find on PBS, which is mostly about whipping up white guilt. There were of course also black slave owners, in fact a disproportionate number of blacks owned slaves. this is from a book by a Robert Grooms, which cites a Duke University professor, among others:
According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city.
To return to the census figures quoted above, this 28 percent is certainly impressive when compared to less than 1.4 percent of all American whites and less than 4.8 percent of southern whites. The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters.
The majority of slaveholders, white and black, owned only one to five slaves. More often than not, and contrary to a century and a half of bullwhips-on-tortured-backs propaganda, black and white masters worked and ate alongside their charges; be it in house, field or workshop. The few individuals who owned 50 or more slaves were confined to the top one percent, and have been defined as slave magnates.
In 1860 there were at least six Negroes in Louisiana who owned 65 or more slaves The largest number, 152 slaves, were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P.C. Richards, who owned a large sugar cane plantation. Another Negro slave magnate in Louisiana, with over 100 slaves, was Antoine Dubuclet, a sugar planter whose estate was valued at (in 1860 dollars) $264,000 (3). That year, the mean wealth of southern white men was $3,978 (4).
In Charleston, South Carolina in 1860 125 free Negroes owned slaves; six of them owning 10 or more. Of the $1.5 million in taxable property owned by free Negroes in Charleston, more than $300,000 represented slave holdings (5). In North Carolina 69 free Negroes were slave owners (6).
We always have to remember that Marxists more or less epitomize the propaganda machine mentality, and bending whole groups to their convenient truths. A few minutes can turn around the decades of work a Marxist propaganda team can put together, or many years spent watching PBS and listening to NPR. We must always remember that almost our entire media has now been trained in universities in which there are only one or two members of entire faculties who are anything but Democrat. The pressure for ideological conformity is so great that whole universities fall into line, and then episodes like Duke U. lacrosse team take place.
A tiny bit of work -- two or three minutes work -- can change our perceptions and give us a different take on events of the near and recent past, but we have to be open-minded enough to try to think outside the box of PBS and NPR long enough to allow another picture to emerge.
JADL,
I have to smile when stu goes into his "slowly I turned . . ." routine on the Tea Party. As if advocating lower taxes, fiscal responsibility, national security and sovereignty, and less federal government regulation are "profound dishonest."
Let's parse this out, so there will be no doubt.
Advocating lower taxes is fiscally irresponsible in an environment in which the government's budget is running at a deficit, all the more so when the taxes are lowered so as to benefit a narrow demographic that consists overwhelming of political allies. Fiscal responsibility on the part of the Tea Party is a myth. That's polite for a lie. You all liked Medicare Part D, a.k.a., welfare for Pharma, when it was proposed without offsetting revenue. This is financial irresponsibility. Starting the war in Iraq was hugely irresponsible financially.
The notion, floated by the Tea Party, and by conservatives of many stripes that the Social Security system is insolvent is simply a lie, and in the case of members of the government, actually felonious. The truth is that Social Security is funded by separate taxes, and it does not contribute at all to the federal deficit. It is also true that the legal requirement that Social Security invest its surpluses in Treasury notes masked a modest structure deficit, but that's a different argument, and it's not an argument that the Tea Party seems capable of understanding, let alone making.
The notion that less regulation, especially in the financial market but also in environmental protection somehow represents an unfair burden on those industries is also a lie, and damn poor policy to boot. The truth is that the financial market requires regulation, as is manifestly clear from the credit crunch, and that permitting the destruction of the environment as a concommitant of business is in fact an unaffordable subsidy -- a liability that will ultimately fall to the taxpayers, c.f., "superfund."
Kirby,
I don't doubt that there were prominent Episcopalians in the service of the Confederacy. After all, Episcopalianism was the de facto religion of the Virginian aristocracy, Virginia was the primary battlefield of the war, and this lead to a very high proportion of Virginian officers in the Army of North Virginia. It was something that the other confederate states complained about.
The list you give of Episcopalians is a list of military men, and it's a very uneven list. Lee and Johnston were major figures. The rest, far less so. Wiki doesn't seem to know the religions of Johnson, Hood, or Hardee, and so it seems unlikely that religion played a major role in their lives (unlike Lee and Polk, for which it did).
And this list misses a heck of a lot of important folk -- Albert Sydney Johnson, and P. G. T. Beauregard were full generals (along with Lee and Joe Johnson). And the Lee's various corp commanders -- James Longstreet, Thomas Jackson, A. P. Hill, Jubal Early, John Gordon. These guys are all much more important that Hood, Hardee, or Polk.
Actually, the most significant proponent of the "Lost Cause" post-Civil War was Jubal Early. Wikipedia doesn't know Early's religion.
As for your argument that most large slaveholders were Episcopalian, that's something that you've asserted is true, but provided no citations, and the "prominent role" quote doesn't do it. And you may well be arguing about large plantations in an effort to exonerate fundamentalists, but this is only because you believe that the abuse of slaves only occurred on large plantations. There is considerable narrative evidence that this isn't true—a single slave woman was especially vulnerable, which should surprise no-one, but which was clearly a fairly common situation.
There's also narrative evidence that slavery as practiced in the border states and in Virginia was considerably less evil than slavery as practiced in the deep south, a region in which Episcopalians were practically unknown.
Stu, you are probably rattled by classes, because you're not staying on track as you usually do. My argument is that the major slave-holders who owned the large plantations in the south were disproportionately Episcopalian. The smaller slave owners (of which there were far more) had gentler treatment of their slaves (they ate at the same table with them in many cases). My problem at this juncture is that I read this years ago in a Lutheran circular and showed it to several pastors and they said that this was well-established that it was the Episcopalians who pushed the war from the Confederate side. What's weird is that if this was a slam dunk for them, it's not generally held to be true. So either it was a convenient truth to dump it on the Episcopalians or else it's got at least some truth in it. I would assume that the wealthier the churches, the wealthier the patrons, and that it was the wealthy and powerful on at least the southern side who wanted the war. The smaller farmers didn't stand to lose much if the slaves were freed. IT was the giant plantation owners who would lose out. It is still true I should think that Episcopalians are wealthier than most denominations (although they also are getting lots of drop outs).
I don't have time to chase all this down, and the parameters keep changing. The thing to do if you want to find out the truth here is get a list of all the slaveowners with more than 100 slaves who lived in the south during the Confederacy (not necessarily the generals, so leave them out of this, since they were tools, and not necessarily pushing the thing... even Lee didn't really want to fight to keep the slaves). It has to have been the large plantation owners who had the vested interest and the power to push for an extended war. Then, once you have that list of the most prominent 1400 men in the south who owned 100 slaves or more, find out what proportion of them were Episcopalian. Then we could sort out whether what I read in that church circular (it was a theological journal like Pro Ecclesia, I think) was valid. Don't get sidetracked into arguments about writers, generals, the best cooks, or politicians. Just think: large plantation owners with more than 100 slaves: then, denomination.
It's a fairly narrow claim I made, so don't widen it or sidetrack.
stu, you've at least offered a few arguments instead of reckless charges as in your last posting, aside from the nonsense that for a politician to claim the SS system is insolvent is punishable by law. Course I didn't say it was insolvent, though SS has no real "trust fund" as conventionally understood in the private economy, for the money's been spent and the Treasury bills you speak of are what amount to unmarketable IOUs. In 2010 SS did pay out more than it took in receipts, though it was able the cover the loss by drawing on interest from previous years.
Medicare-Medicaid is in much worse shape and in more urgent need of reforms such as those proposed in Rep Ryan's tentative plan, which has the support of former Clinton budget director Alice Rivlin. But if you're looking for an example of a lie, take your own claim that "you all liked Medicare Part D . . ." when I did not support this extension of Medicare, nor did many other conservatives.
And just recently here I said the idea of raising taxes on capital gains and dividends might be a good idea as an offset to lowering corporate taxes to encourage business growth and save more US jobs.
At any rate, the cost of SS and Medicare-Medicaid all together accounts for 43% of the federal budget while defense (the first responsibility of any sovereign state) amounts to 20%--the only expenditure of government the Ds can ever get excited about cutting. At least the Iraq War seems so far to have been a--costly, yes--measured success, while the present administration can hardly point to any foreign policy successes whatever to its credit.
It's quite obvious to all those not blinkered by class war ideology that the present administration has been the most fiscally irresponsible of any previous one in my lifetime. No one argues the need for no federal regulation of the markets, but the federal government must regulate itself better in order to avoid contributing to the problem, as did its heavy hand so disastrously in the housing bubble that precipitated the present financial crisis. However, the present administration has succeeded in spurring on inflation and falsely claiming economic successes (e.g., the bogus "Summer of Recovery" proclamation--where the President acted the part of some cardboard King Canute pretending to command the waves) it's not achieved (and routinely revised down later by CBO adjustments).
His performance in his speech on the budget was miserably vague, even contemptible. He's still trying to blame the Rs for all our fiscal woes and casually dismissing the Ryan plan as a way of evading responsibility for producing an actual detailed budget that can be analysed by the CBO (like the one he submitted just 60 days ago that a seasoned legal and economic commentator characterised as an "irresponsible joke").
Kirby,
Let's review the bidding. We started with the following claim that you made:
But in general the fundamentalists do at least HAVE morals. They are holding to the ten commandments. You are not going to get the kind of genocide that the Marxists practiced. You are not going to have the kind of killing fields that the Khmer Rouge put in place, or the complete destruction of classes that Stalin put in motion.
I questioned the part about fundamentalists holding to the ten commandments, and cited specifically southern slavery, and the violations of the ten commandments that were common to southern slavery, and the very high prevalence of fundamentalists in the south, as strong evidence of systematic fundamentalist failings to keep the commandments.
I believe you've granted the point that southern slavery involved violations of the ten commandments, and also the high concentration of fundamentalists in the south. So you've structured your defense of antebellum southern fundamentalists by arguing
Claim #1. That the abuses and violations of the ten commandments were essentially concentrated in the large plantations; and
Claim #2. That the large plantations were owned (and therefore the abuse was done by) Episcopalians.
I 'll grant that if you can sustain both claims, you have an argument, but I doubt the veracity of both claims.
I've argued against Claim #1 by noting that isolated female slaves were especially vulnerable, and that the economics of slavery indicates that this was an especially common configuration. After all, those large plantations wanted field hands, and this leads to an expectation that male slaves were preferred in that context, with the inevitably mathematical consequences that isolated slaves were predominantly female. Your argument for Claim #1 is based narrowly on the economics of flogging, which are hardly the only sin committed against slaves.
I've argued a bit against #2, in as much as it seems demographically unlikely, in the meantime, I've been happy to point out that your efforts to find evidence for this have thus far been unconvincing. E.g., giving a reference that cites the importance of the Episcopalians to the Confederacy, but does so solely by pointing out military men, does nothing to establish the claim vz. slavery. You've also argued that the large plantation holders had the most to lose in the Civil War, which is certainly true. But it is also true that low-end estimate of the total number of men who served under arms in the CSA was 600,000. The war was not fought by the large slaveholders, it was fought by common folk.
Later, I enlarged my criticism (partially in response to your arguments) to include Jim Crow (and the essential electoral unanimity that supported Jim Crow) as a way to get to active participation by fundamentalists in the oppression of the black, and so the violations of the commandments incurred thereby. You haven't even attempted to address this.
You claim that the parameters keep changing, but really they don't. I'm just not buying your initial assertion that fundamentalists are especially faithful w.r.t. the ten commandments. I believe that many fundamentalists try to be, but they do have their blinders. And the problem is that their blinders can be positive enablers of sin, because they sometimes find "justification" for their sins in the Bible, at which point it becomes a right and a virtue in their minds. Slave-owning is a great illustration of this, which is why I raised it in the first place. If you go back and revisit the arguments of the antebellum southern churches as to why slavery was a positive good, you'll be reading fundamentalist ideas, expressed in a fundamentalist way. They don't make that argument any more, but they still argue that way, because that's who they are.
The Confederate Army's leadership had been laced with Episcopalians such as Lee, Leonidas Polk, William Hardee, John B. Hood, and Joseph E. Johnston, and many of the principle preachers of the Lost Cause also were Episcopalian."
Leadership. Not the soldiers, Rev Kirby. And Davis was baptist. Many CSA leaders were not Ep. but baptists and presbyterian. So without a complete sample, your point is mostly meaningless.
I've always respected General Hardee. He was probably the greatest tactician of the CSA--now one discovers he was an Episcopal boy, like General Lee! Coolness. Another Episco: JW Booth hisself. Zounds.
And this list misses a heck of a lot of important folk -- Albert Sydney Johnson, and P. G. T. Beauregard were full generals (along with Lee and Joe Johnson).
Beauregard was a french catholic-- at least raised as one-- as anyone who ever passed US History or read Catton would know.
Most of the Founders of the USA were Episco., too. So according to your little criteria, Jefferson and Madison must be suspect as well.
And the Lee's various corp commanders -- James Longstreet, Thomas Jackson, A. P. Hill, Jubal Early, John Gordon. These guys are all much more important that Hood, Hardee, or Polk.
Mostly presbyterian (Jackson was, as was Longstreet (or a baptist). And Hardee was as important, at least in the west. (and you forgot Breckinridge again, the main instigator of the secession, vice president under Buchanan--he won CA and OR in 1860 as well-- and a CSA general, and presbyterian). Another bogus comparison
Who's the PC liberal now?
Ralph Kirby Emerson--
Had KO read a bit more about the Civil War he'd note that many southerners hated the North because of the unitarian sentimentalists, who they considered statist liberals ---and Honest Abe hisself pals with RWE. In fact the Feds not only ended slavery (with some reason)...they seized the plantation property, or in the case of Shermans march, wiped out the cities, towns farms and then pimped it back to the poor southerners during Reconstruction. So much for the Emersonian morality.
JADL,
stu, you've at least offered a few arguments instead of reckless charges as in your last posting, aside from the nonsense that for a politician to claim the SS system is insolvent is punishable by law.
There is such a law, although I'll need to track it down to determine its precise scope. But no doubt politicians exempted themselves.
Course I didn't say it was insolvent, though SS has no real "trust fund" as conventionally understood in the private economy, for the money's been spent and the Treasury bills you speak of are what amount to unmarketable IOUs.
This represents a deep misunderstanding. The money is in treasury bonds backed by the full faith and credit of the US. If you invest in an ordinary corporate bond fund, what do you think happens? Does the corporation that issues the bonds just lock the dollars up in a safe? Of course not, they invest it in their business, with an expectation that they'll be able to pay off their obligations with future profits. So it is with government debt. Yes, the money has been spent. But yes, also, it is backed by future tax, fee, and other sources of revenue of the federal government, no less than had the bonds been purchased by the Chinese. Whether they are marketable or not is irrelevant -- they are legally binding obligations.
Saying that they are any less real than that puts you in the position of advocating public default, which is grossly fiscally irresponsible.
Medicare-Medicaid is in much worse shape and in more urgent need of reforms such as those proposed in Rep Ryan's tentative plan, which has the support of former Clinton budget director Alice Rivlin. But if you're looking for an example of a lie, take your own claim that "you all liked Medicare Part D . . ." when I did not support this extension of Medicare, nor did many other conservatives.
Medicare is in bad shape for two reasons -- one is the unfunded Medicare Part D, the other is the escalation of heath care costs above the rate of inflation. The PPACA deals with both, Ryan's plan deals with neither. Undoubtedly there were principled conservatives who opposed the bill, but I'm not arguing about you, I'm arguing about the Tea Party, i.e., the Republican base. And clearly the Republican Base voted essentially en bloc for all of Mr. Bush's initiatives, and clearly this means that it was financially irresponsible.
At least the Iraq War seems so far to have been a--costly, yes--measured success.
This is simply delusional. The government of Iraq is entirely disfunctional, and how could it not be after a decade of invasion and civil war? When we leave, who do you think is going to step in to "save" this failed state? Iran? Or will it just devolve into another Somalia?
It's quite obvious to all those not blinkered by class war ideology that the present administration has been the most fiscally irresponsible of any previous one in my lifetime.
I'd argue that it is only those who have ideological blinders who would make such a claim. One of the problems of economics, though, is that we can't run a controlled experiment. We can't, say, put half the nation on the Republican fiscal plan, and half on the Democratic. As so arguing about outcomes always ends up putting a real outcome against a conjectural one.
At this point, I'd say that the state of our economy (and federal budget) has more to do with the shape it was in when Obama came to office than with anything positive or negative he's done since. This isn't to argue that he's been ineffective, just that the scale of the problem was large relative to the available remedies. But I'm sure that you're side would have made it worse, anyway.
I'm familiar with the Social Security issues, because I worked for DHH for almost thirty years.
The RS Trust Fund is in excellent shape. With minor adjustments, no major deficits or tax increases need be anticipated. Ditto with the Disability Trust Fund.
The problems lie in the medical insurance areas: Medicare (A, B, C, D), and Medicaid.
Anyone who tries to scare you with "trust fund deficits" is lying. The real reason Republicans have been trying to gut Social Security is that they don't believe in a redistribution of income. It's a fact that the less you pay into Social Security, the more advantageous the program is for you. Once you qualify by having the requisite quarters of coverage, the benefit is greater at the lower levels of entitlement benefit. The same is true of survivor's benefits. A widow with no work record can get 100% of her late spouse's insurance amount. These are clearly "social engineering" at its purest, and conservatives have always been against it. So they pose as "fiscally responsible" budget hawks, and warn people that if we don't either "privatize" the trust fund or curtail entitlements, the system will "go broke." This is a lie. Rich people hate social insurance systems, because they benefit all of society, at the expense of the richest members. Why wouldn't the rich hate it?
But medical insurance is a different matter. Medicare is socialized medicine. So is Medicaid. We already have a national health insurance program, with universal applicability: It's called Medicare, and Medicaid. What conservatives (and their clients in the medical insurance and medical delivery industries) abhor is a single payer standard in which costs are reigned in by a competitive entity. When Republicans tell you government "intervention" in the medical industry will cause "runaway inflation" in costs, they're absolutely right: Costs to government administered programs will result in much higher costs to the taxpayer. But the point is that no one will have to be denied coverage, and no one will have to accept third-rate treatment, and and insurance and drug corporations won't get to dictate prices at will. IOW, the rising costs of medical treatment will be born by the society in the same proportion as its (graduated) tax liability structure. This is difficult to swallow for everyone, but the real losers in the end will be the insurance companies and the medical industries, because once people actually SEE what they're paying for all that treatment, they'll refuse to allow themselves to be ripped off. These are the so-called "death panels" in which government agencies would be able to measure precisely what is being purchased--the cost, the benefit--and (horrors!) regulate it. For years we've heard about the Pentagon's $175 screwdriver. Wait until we hear about the $400 syringe, and the $2500 five-minute "office visit" and the $10,000 room charge for one bed overnight. Once that shit hits the fan, we'll see an overnight change in the "cost of medical treatment" in America.
JADL,
stu, you've at least offered a few arguments instead of reckless charges as in your last posting, aside from the nonsense that for a politician to claim the SS system is insolvent is punishable by law.
OK, I've had a chance to dig a bit further.
Constitutional authority: Amendment 14, Section 4: "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void."
This can (and has) been linked to 18 US 1361, "Whoever willfully injures or commits any depredation against any property of the United States, or of any department or agency thereof, or any property which has been or is being manufactured or constructed for the United States, or any department or agency thereof, or attempts to commit any of the foregoing offenses, shall be punished as follows:
If the damage or attempted damage to such property exceeds the sum of $1,000, by a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than ten years, or both; if the damage or attempted damage to such property does not exceed the sum of $1,000, by a fine under this title or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both."
To my mind, the constitutional language is clear, as is the fact that the Tea Party's meme that the public debt held by the Social Security Trust Fund is invalid is in violation of it. This amendment certainly limits the 1st amendment's right to freedom of speech, and so seems out of the national character, but that doesn't invalidate it, nor does it excuse the Tea Party or its political enablers.
I think it is plausible to call into question whether or not 18 US 1361 applies, but I'll tell you this, I'd much rather be playing offense than defense on the question.
stu, a few remarks:
Your passive construction does not reveal the linking agent between the amendment and the provision of the US Code section you invoked.
By the way, you might refresh yourself on the meaning of the word "depredation."
At any rate, your claim that speaking of the Social Security System's insolvency is a federal crime is simply preposterous and shows the lengths to which you will go to slander the Tea Party.
And kindly refer me to a court case where someone has been charged with this so-called "crime."
If it were a crime as you fancy the jails would not hold the hundreds of thousands (probably millions) who've made this claim.
Even the suggestion of prosecution for this reeks of Stalinist thought-crime persecution and disgraces anyone who suggests it.
Curtis,
It's a fact that the less you pay into Social Security, the more advantageous the program is for you.
May I express some skepticism here? I have a lot of anecdotal evidence that there's a strong correlation between life expectancy and income. Thus, lower paid laborers often retire at 65, and are waked at 66. Whereas, higher paid folk often live into their 90's.
Is there any hard data?
I was on the road for two days: spent time in NYC. The trees in Central Park are budding, and it was warm, lots of rollerskaters, joggers, people lying on the Sheep's Meadow, about 78 last night in Times Square (I never knew it was the site of the NY Times in 1904's head office, which is why it was thus named). I thought it had to do with the way that time feels intensified there, "Time squared."
Spent last evening in a shabby Econo-Lodge in Elizabeth NJ and the internet connection was down.
Went to day to the Cloisters, up in Washington Heights (now renamed Hudson Heights for some reason), and then to Ikea, and a mall over in Harriman where I finally got to return a pair of shoes that were too narrow and were killing my feet, leaving me to wear a very old pair of shoes for the last four weeks.
I like the way the arguments have rolled forward.
We're now talking denominational history, stealthcare, the denominational affiliation of major slaveowners, who was the larger sinner -- the small slaveowners or the large, and other things.
I wish I could afford to employ a fact checker. I can't. I have to spend a lot of the weekend looking over student papers, and getting my kids up to speed on the soccer field.
Didn't sleep last night: we had ordered a set of double-beds, and got a single king. This meant no sleep much for any of us, so we're all going to collapse about now.
I like the arguments, and the questions, but rather than just continue down into the quicksand of our own notions, we need to get the hard sand of real facts to get some traction. Of course, for such enormous questions in which none of us are really expert (we're all out of our fields), we can only hope that in years to come answers to these questions will slowly emerge: we need the data to fulfill our intuitions.
Suffice it to say we can never tell who the greatest sinners of the CW era were: no doubt GM still thinks it's Lincoln himself.
Here, I'm putting my bet on the big-ass Episcopalians. Not because Episcopalians can't be good, but because they can be bad. That is, if the denomination was started to license a string of wives for Henry VIII, and meant merely to rubberstamp his divorces and inhouse murders as he continually sought a son (not realizing the father determines the sex) then what can't the denomination do?
Which isn't to say they haven't done an awful lot of good: in Africa, and elsewhere. Hamilton was Episcopalian. I think it's true that more presidents were Episcopalian than anything else. In general our presidents have been pretty good. I like them all even Buchanan, and as they fade back into history, it's not to find them all very engaging: even James Garfield.
To fulfill the Herculean demands Stu has set for me: I'd have to come upon a list of all the major slave-owners and their denominations (or draw them up myself, and painstakingly track down their other influences), as well as a list of all their various crimes against their slaves, and then do a comparative study with this list against a list of all the minor slave-owners (two and under) with their crimes listed (I assume most of these crimes, like Jefferson's, were never much investigated, and were winked at rather than prosecuted, esp. when the gentlemen owned a big chunk of the state and all the lawyers and politicians in that part of the state or if they lived way out in the woods and were rarely visited). This job might be too big even for a whole department of scribes paid full time for a century. I pass, but want to get back to a point we might agree upon.
Alex Hamilton apparently thought slavery made everybody stupid: the people who owned the slaves got stupider (plus had to harden themselves morally to put up with their own stench), and the people who were slaves didn't get to think for themselves, so it made for useless societies. So he argued in the northeast where he lived (NYC) for its banishment. On a show by Richard Brookhiser (on Hamilton) the other night on PBS there was the idea floated that he (Hamilton) was responsible for getting slavery banned in the northeast (slavery abolished in NY in 1808, I think). I wouldn't know. These are such enormous historical questions, and bigger than even a comment box can hold. Maybe bigger than a whole biography, or a dissertation, or a set of encyclopedias.
Hamilton's overall point seems right, and seems not far from the point that Marx via Hegel makes about how the bondsman becomes stupid after he gets someone else to do his hard work for him.
Whether American capitalism (via Hamilton) or North Korean socialism (via Marx) is more like slavery is a secondary question, and most of us would agree it's NK socialism. Brookhiser made the comment that NYC is a song of Hamilton: from the NY Stock Exchange, to its thriving trade. Hamilton helped put it all in place before Burr blew him away in weehauken.
We can only deal with huge questions here and only hint at answers. I like that we disagree on everything while being universalists. Hopefully in years to come, our cenacle will hammer together a few truths we agree on. Let's be patient. I don't think those hard truths are coming tonight, or even this weekend.
But any simple truth is kind of boring because disagreement is fundamentally more interesting than agreement. If we all agreed, what we would have to talk about, or explore? Vive la difference!
I wanted to go see Hamilton's grave at Trinity Church but got sidetracked by other stuff that I thought the kids would enjoy more: like the giant dinosaur in the Times Square Toys R Us. (I did get one kid to agree on going to see H's grave, but the others were cool or even cold, when the question was broached.)
Kirby,
To fulfill the Herculean demands Stu has set for me: I'd have to come upon a list of all the major slave-owners and their denominations (or draw them up myself
I'm not trying to make herculean demands, but I do think it is fair to ask you to source a claim if you can't meet a reasonable burden of proof yourself. Perhaps someone else has done the research.
In the meantime, I did a fairly simple, but fairly surprising computation. The pre-war population of the confederacy was roughly 8.8M, of which roughly 3.3M were slaves. This leaves 5.5M non-slaves. The average family size in the south in 1850 (per census) was a computationally convenient 5.5. So that's 1M non-slave families. One third of these, i.e., 333K families, owned slaves. So the average number of slaves per slave holding family was about 10.
Surprised? I am. That's a big number. We know that about half of these slave holding families owned 5 or fewer slaves. But that implies (given any sort of plausible distribution) that truly isolated slaves were rare -- probably less than 15% of all slave-holding families owned just 1 slave.
And that leaves... 28% of all southern families owning two or more slaves.
It's something to think about...
JADL,
Well, it's clear that the Tea Party's legendary esteem for the Constitution is as binding on it as Paygo. As it is, the faith that investors have that the US will meet its obligations is a property right, and the damage that is done by claiming it won't (in terms if higher interest payments) makes 18 US 1361 applicable.
And no, I can't point out any prosecutions. But the validity of the law does not depend on whether or not whether it is prosecuted, it depends on whether or not judges choose to enforce it when it is. That test hasn't been made either way. Assuming it won't is kind of like driving 10 over. You'll get away with it until you don't, but when that day comes, telling the judge that "everyone else was doing it" isn't going to get you off.
If it were a crime as you fancy the jails would not hold the hundreds of thousands (probably millions) who've made this claim.
It's probably the only practical path to prison reform :-). But the plain truth is that those who lie this way are doing real, measurable damage to our country. In most countries, that's called treason. Fortunately for your side, our country has a more rigorus definition of the term. Of course, we are at war, and damaging our ability to finance that war does constitute aid and comfort to the enemy, so maybe it applies after all.
In the meantime, I see Ryan's budget as a positive step forward. It is a classical example of overreach, and we will punish your side for it -- tax breaks for millionaires, attacks on the social contract of social security and medicare. The attack ads of 2012 practically write themselves, and there's enough video out there that we won't even have to narrate them. Ryan's words, out of his own mouth, will be enough.
Even the suggestion of prosecution for this reeks of Stalinist thought-crime persecution and disgraces anyone who suggests it.
Hardly. The language of the constitution couldn't be clearer. If you want to claim that the constitution is Stalinist, go ahead, see how far that gets you.
Stu, your averaging works in some places, but not others. If say 1000 slave-owning families owned 1000 slaves per, then it throws off your numbers. Not all the slave-owners were the average. There were giant plantations, largely owned by Episcopalians (that's my claims), and then there were lots of other people.
You can't just take the huge number of slaves and evenly distribute them through the population, and get an accurate glimpse of Confederate society.
This is obviously going to be a huge undertaking to straighten out, but I don't think averaging is going to do it. Averages won't work. Particulars will work, and particulars will have all kinds of statistical anomalies.
I will try to track down the research on Episcopalians in the confederacy that I read ten years back in some church journal. It will take some time to do this, but I have a couple people to ask and I seem to remember a few key terms.
Meanwhile, don't jump to conclusions.
Even weird J, howling in the wilderness of methamphetamine-ridden Lancaster, California, has provided me with one key detail, if it's true (I haven't checked): JW Booth was an Episcopalian.
Episcopalians were developed as a rubber stamp for Henry VIIIth, and I assume they have existed as a rubber stamp ever since for secular groups in power that needed a rubber stamp for their peculiar policies, whether it was slave-holding or especially abnormal marriages. That's where they began, with Henry VIIIth. No reason that trend should not continue.
I'm sure there is also a heretical group inside of the Episcopal church that keeps trying to right the thing -- that's what Cranmer was doing before his head met the chopping block (he had read too much Luther, as had Anne Boleyn).
Note: Anne Boleyn was wrong.
stu, it's hard to believe you're serious in pursuing this absurd and profoundly authoritarian line of argument. But if you are, I can't help but think this is a delightful sign of exasperation and desperation on your side that bodes ill for your side's chances in the next general elections. Still, it's consistent with your promotion of the arrest and prosecution of patriots like Vice-President Cheney and Professor Yoo, among others in the Bush administration.
Your side has distinguished itself mightily in anti-war agitation for decades and you presume to belabour Tea Party supporters with speaking their minds about the necessity for entitlement reform. Nevertheless, your side's anti-war agitators have the same rights of free speech and lawful assembly as do Tea Party supporters. But if you're a mind to find evidence for your absurd claims about purely figurative "depredation" (strictly speaking, an oxymoron), then start here:
[4/2/2011] "The President’s National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform concluded that we are at a national 'moment of truth,' saying: 'We cannot play games or put off hard choices any longer. Without regard to party, we have a patriotic duty to keep the promise of America to give our children and grandchildren a better life.'
To this end, the undersigned implore the Congress to include fundamental entitlement reform in its Budget Resolution for Fiscal Year 2012. There can be no greater national priority than reducing the prospective explosion of federal debt. It threatens the economic prosperity of this great country and represents a betrayal of our national obligation to deliver a better future to the next generations. Military leaders have identified future federal red ink as a national security threat. The unabated sea of federal spending lies at the intersection of these budgetary, economic, and national security threats. Reforming entitlements must be at the top of the agenda for the 112th Congress.
Such an act of Congressional leadership will promote job growth, support more rapid economic growth, and rekindle the American dream of upward mobility. We respectfully ask that the Congress include in its budgetary plans over the next 10 years reforms of the greatest budgetary threats: the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security."
This statement was signed by:
This statement was signed by:
Wayne Angell, Angell Economics, former Governor of the Federal Reserve Board
Michael Boskin, Stanford University, former Chairman, Council of Economic Advisers
James Buchanan, Virginia Tech, Nobel Laureate
Ernest Christian, Center for Strategic Tax Reform
Tom Duesterberg, Manufacturer's Alliance/MAPI
Bill Frenzel, Brookings Institution, former Member of Congress
Diana Furchtgott-Roth, Hudson Institute
Douglas Holtz-Eakin, American Action Forum, former Director, Congressional Budget Office
R. Glenn Hubbard, Columbia University, former Chairman, Council of Economic Advisers
Art Laffer, Laffer Associates
Bob McTeer, National Center for Policy Analysis, former President, Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas
Pam Olson, Skadden Arps, former Assistant Secretary for Tax Policy, Treasury Department
June O'Neill, Baruch College, CUNY, former Director, Congressional Budget Office
Rudy Penner, Urban Institute, former Director, Congressional Budget Office
Murray Weidenbaum, Washington University in St. Louis, former Chairman, Council of Economic Advisers
In addition, 350 academic economists signed, among several U of Chicago colleagues of yours. So perhaps you might kick off your own absurd legal "take" on 18 USC 1361 here by denouncing a few of your "criminal" colleagues to the authorities or even attempting a few citizen's arrests close to home if you're able.
That the President and most of his party choose to engage in raw class war demagoguery on the economy and ignore necessary entitlement reforms, it's obvious this will be a major issue in the next general election campaign, which I don't expect to be free of election intimidation, criminality, and even violence, given your side's recent performances in rallies and protests as well as their recently discovered plans for mob actions to protest the results of the last election. So much for your side's bogus "civility" campaign when after a few weeks it had outlived its purpose--which was merely to intimidate opposition. Again, there's growing opposition to the Obama administration's and the Ds' utter failures to address pressing domestic and foreign policy challenges; their strident and thuggish attacks on the Rs' proposals aren't going over so well with the independents' votes they need to add to their base, as the President's again-sinking approval numbers show.
And fortunately our constitution isn't a document that in any way permits the Stalinist interpretation you've quite perversely applied to it.
(Part II)
Kirby,
Stu, your averaging works in some places, but not others. If say 1000 slave-owning families owned 1000 slaves per, then it throws off your numbers. Not all the slave-owners were the average.
I'm afraid you're not following my argument. I'm using the average together with what is known about certain points in the distribution of slave holding, to make some reasonable inferences about the rest.
From generally agreed statistics, something like 28% of all southern families owned 2 or more slaves, and we know that 1/6th owned five or more. That's a relatively large proportion of the south owning a relatively large number of slaves. I think this is striking.
Yes there were large plantations with large number of slaves, but the fact still remains, a large fraction of the south (1/6th of all families) owned a large number (5 or more) slaves.
That's may not be the south of your imagination, but it is the south as revealed by the 1850 census.
There are about 2,000,000 Episcopalians now, but membership is dropping rapidly. The Wiki page goes over the Civil War era in exactly one sentence.
Here is something about their current membership, which also says that Virginia is a strongpoint for them in the south. So it's possible that it's the Virginia aristocracy that was largely Episcopalian?
Here's the Wiki article:
"As of 2009, the Episcopal Church reports 2,175,616 baptized members. The majority of members are in the United States, where the Church has 2,006,343 members, a decrease of 50,949 persons (-2.5 percent) from 2008. Outside of the U.S. the Church has 169,273 members, an increase of 883 persons (0.5 percent) from 2008. Total average Sunday attendance (ASA) for 2009 was 724,789, a decrease of -3.0 percent from 2008. ASA in the U.S. was 682,963 and outside the U.S. was 41,826.[7]
The Episcopal Church experienced notable growth in the first half of the 20th century, but like many mainline churches, it has had a decline in membership in more recent decades.[49] Membership grew from 1.1 million members in 1925 to a peak of over 3.4 million members in the mid-1960s.[50] Between 1970 and 1990, membership declined from about 3.2 million to about 2.4 million.[50] Once changes in how membership is counted are taken into consideration, the Episcopal Church's membership numbers were broadly flat throughout the 1990s, with a slight growth in the first years of the 21st century.[51][52][53][54][55] A loss of 115,000 members was reported for the years 2003–5, which has been attributed in part to controversy concerning ordination of homosexuals to the priesthood and the election of Gene Robinson (who is openly gay) as Bishop of New Hampshire.[56] Membership is concentrated along the east coast. The District of Columbia, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and Virginia have the highest rates of adherence. The state of New York has the largest number of members, with over 200,000."
JADL,
it's hard to believe you're serious in pursuing this absurd and profoundly authoritarian line of argument.
Let me provide a little bit of perspective then. I estimate that between employee and employer FICA taxes (both of which are a part of my compensation package, and therefore my earnings, broadly construed) I've contributed roughly $300K to the Social Security system.
And Simpson, et. al., propose to renounce this obligation, as reflected in public debt held by the Social Security Trust, and so naturally enough, I view him as thief, because that's what he aspires to be. And his goal in this robbery is to give the money to the rich, by essentially canceling their future tax obligations. And I don't give a damn how large the gang of robbers are, or how nice the suits are that they wear, they're still thieves and liars. It's personal—they're proposing to steal this from me and from my wife. And they're proposing to steal similar amounts from my colleagues, and friends, and even from you.
I will grant that there is modest entitlement reform required. Social security taxes are a bit too low given its obligations. This has little nothing to do with life expectancies (because one you hit 20, they haven't changed all that much since '37), but more to do with costing out of disability benefits and cost-of-living increases. Medicare Part D needs to be paid for or repealed, and the increase in medical costs (and to a certain extent, the expectations of our citizens w.r.t. what medical interventions they can reasonably expect) need to be brought under control and the taxes and expenditures brought back into balance. But using "entitlement reform" as code phrase for "entitlement elimination" is a lie. Claiming that these entitlements are unreasonable expectations on the part of those who benefit from them, and unreasonable burdens on the rich who pay for them, when in fact they are earned benefits, paid for by those who will receive them, is a lie. Attempting to make an ex-post-facto revision to the tax code in which makes it regressive (by essentially making past FICA payments benefit-less tax payments) is nothing less than the attempt to steal the future from working people who have earned it, and that "distinguished set of signers" are nothing more than a gang of thieves.
But there is some good news in all of this. Whether or not the 14th amendment can be used to persecute people who lie about the validity of the public debt, it does clearly prohibit Congress from passing laws that would have the effect of renouncing the validity of an part of that debt. So Simpson, and all of the politicians, economists, and general jackasses you quote—the suit gang—are just blowing smoke.
Saying that taxing the rich at 39% is 'class warfare' is ludicrous, especially when it comes from those who claim that fixing the debt is a priority.
Saying that it's class warfare to close corporate tax loopholes so that massive corporations can't worm their way around not paying taxes is ludicrous, especially when it comes from those who claim that fixing the debt is a priority.
It must be frustrating to be on the right, and realize that were it not for the Bush tax cuts (and their 2-year extension that our currently-centrist/pragmatic president allowed) and the unpaid-for prescription drug benefit, we simply would not be having this conversation about the debt.
8 years of unpaid for war, unpaid for tax cuts, and unpaid for drug benefits carries a hell of a lot more weight wrt the debt problem than 1 unpaid for stimulus bill that was necessary to keep the entire economy from going under.
I would believe that the Tea Party is serious about the debt if they actually believed in practical solutions to the problem...
But the dogma of 'RAISING TAXES ON ANYONE EVER IS EVIL' and the dogma of 'HIGH DEBT BAD' can't be held in the same mind at the same time by someone who is thinking reasonably.
Blaming the current administration for the debt problem is like blaming the current administration for getting us into the Iraq War.
It's simply reality that the previous administration's fiscally irresponsible policies are responsible for where we are - Which we wouldn't have to bring up, if it weren't for the inconceivable logic of the right that says 'we got into this mess by doing X...so let's do X-squared to fix it!!!'
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_no_taxes
The fact of the matter is that we actually need to tax people in order to run a government and to pay down the debt... The right refuses to acknowledge this, and the left (at this point in time) is too weak to implement it.
(summary of link: in real terms, the rich pay about 15% in taxes...and almost half of all households pay nothing at all).
*note* the article's data is from 2007 (the latest year for such data), but methinks the reality hasn't changed much (except that taxes have dropped overall since then).
Brett, I don't think the data are so clear. It's not just individuals that pay taxes. Companies also pay taxes, and when you buy something in a store, you also pay taxes at that point, too. There was no personal income tax until about 1907. Country got along fine without it. In 1933 Roosevelt jacked up the tax rate to about 90% to pay for all his social programs.
Obama's programs have scared businesses out of the business of doing business. He has openly stated that he hates fat cat bankers, and no one's sure whether he hates doctors or not, or what it is he's trying to do with Stealthcare.
U. healthcare in England virtually ruined their economy. There's a good article in the weekend WSJ by a British doctor named Theodore Dalrymple who says that in England they keep having new commissions piled on old commissions who study how to make medical costs go down, and this just doubles the medical costs.
It's a funny sad piece.
For a while there Jamaica had a bigger economy than Britain.
Thatcher brought it back, but then Blair killed it again, Dalrymple says.
It's not clear to me how you think taxing everybody is going to help. Most think the way to get the economy going again is to make it look like it will be profitable to invest in new business ventures. If, however, there's going to be giant costs of doing business, or uncertain costs, no one will do business.
The Big O's 3000 page bill is so filled with vague language that it might permanently kill business. No one wants to venture in when there's so many mandates, and so much of the language is opaque, and socialistical.
The business climate started to improve when the Tea Party swept in during November. But then it quickly became clear that Obama still held the power. He still holds the legislative branch (with forty or more czars doing God knows what), and he still has the Senate.
Until he's gone, nothing's going to budge.
The economy went south when it looked like BO would get in. At that point, everyone got out of the water, or went overseas.
Illegal immigrants still arrive in huge numbers. We get about a million a year. This is based solely on the reputation of the place, which will probably last a while longer.
State capitalism has a tendency to drive and kill private capitalism.
The big O's killing the receipts on which the government lives.
stu, I don't know your age, but it's quite possible that by the time a plan to reform entitlements would be applied, it wouldn't apply to you (even your "suit," Paul Krugman, admits it would take years to revamp entitlements). A high-school drop-out turned district court judge like Emmy's dad will pay nearly a million dollars to SS by the time he retires, but he's always favoured SS and other entitlement reforms of the nature Rep Ryan proposes.
Since you're concerned about robbery, some consider it robbery (and betrayal) to sacrifice future generations' financial futures to continue to fund unsustainable entitlement programmes in order to buy votes from dependent constituencies. Some consider it robbery to steal half a trillion dollars from Medicare to fund ObamaCare, which already has created havoc in the health care industry (my mum's losing her company retirement health insurance next year because of ObamaCare--sure, it's personal on this end, too) and cannot even apply its own stipulations without resorting to granting gangster-style ("we want you should have . . .") "exemptions." And this tedious "'give' the money to the rich" refrain is simply part of the familiar class war rhetoric that can easily be turned round as "take less," or "rob-lite." I think we can sustain essential government services and a social safety net for the needy without resorting to scare-rhetoric by the left decrying every attempt at entitlement reform as murder (to which their opponents can raise the spectre of government "death panels" and abortion funding). We saw the same sort of bloody-shirt waving during the debate over welfare reform in the 90s.
Brett, taxing the so-called rich more isn't going to keep unsustainable entitlement programmes solvent, nor will it appreciably reduce the huge record-breaking deficits this irresponsible and incompetent administration has run up. And who's against corporations paying their taxes but the Obama administration's crony-capitalist government mascots like GM, Chrysler, GE, ethanol companies, "green" companies, etc., all big D conributors?
Even welfare states in Europe and elsewhere have taken major first steps to deal with the world financial crisis, the soundest of these being reducing government expenditures first. I know this is antithetical to the left view that government regulation of markets should always work toward establishing government control of markets, but command economies have little hope of maintaining themselves as prosperous growing ones.
What does the pie chart look like in terms of who is paying our taxes?
On fox, they always claim that only the rich are paying taxes as it is. O'Reilly says the top two percent pays 90% of the taxes, or something.
How true is this?
I thought corporations also paid taxes, but apparently GE doesn't because they contribute to BO's war chest, and thus don't have to pay taxes.
Kirby,
There was no personal income tax until about 1907. Country got along fine without it. In 1933 Roosevelt jacked up the tax rate to about 90% to pay for all his social programs.
No doubt you actually believe this, which is sad.
National Taxpayer's Union - History of Federal Individual Bottom and Top Tax Brackets
From actual (as opposed to made up) data, a very different picture arises. The US tax rate had an initial surge in 1917, presumably to pay for the cost of the war, jumping from 7% pre-war to a WWI peak of 77% in 1918. The rate subsequently dropped, from 56% in 1922 to 24% in 1929. Under the Roosevelt administration, the rate did increase, to 63% (not 90%) in 1933. The next jump came in '36, to 79%. The really high rates 94% in '44-'45 were at the end of the war, and they stayed in the 90% range through the Eisenhower administration.
There was no personal income tax until about 1907. Country got along fine without it.
And of course, this conveniently omits the fact that the income tax was established in 1862 (by Lincoln, of course), with a top-end rate of 10% to fight the civil war. An income tax was collected until 1895, at which point it was found unconstitutional. An income tax was reinstated in 1913, reflecting good work by Teddy Roosevelt.
The Big O's 3000 page bill is so filled with vague language that it might permanently kill business.
This is hyperbolic, but there is a small grain of truth here worth exposing. There's a lot of uncertainty about how the PPACA will be implemented, what the relative cost and benefits will be, etc. Of course, Republican opposition and threats to repeal PPACA add to that uncertainty. Businesses don't like uncertainty. That much is true.
But the broader question -- as to whether the overall environment for business will be better or worse after PPACA is fully implemented, that's an entirely different question, and it has nothing at all to do with present uncertainties.
The business climate started to improve when the Tea Party swept in during November.
What a strange idea. The DJIA has shown considerable turbulence, but the overall pattern has been fairly consistent growth during the Obama administration, and I'm hard pressed to see any meaningful change. Do you have some data to support this claim?
The economy went south when it looked like BO would get in.
Again, this is demonstrably false. The collapse occurred because of the creation of a large, essentially unregulated derivative market in mortgage-backed securities, which created a voracious demand for more mortgages. This lead a progressive relaxation of the vetting of borrowers, peaking with the ever-popular "no documentation" loans of 2007. Yes, the collapse had to do with a loss of business confidence, but this had nothing to do with Obama, and everything to do with a realization that a huge bubble economy had grown up around trading financial instruments that were rated at A, AA, and AAA, but which in fact were all but worthless.
At that point, everyone got out of the water, or went overseas.
What part of "global economic crisis" didn't you get?
As the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, the rich pay a higher percentage of the taxes in total, but this doesn't correlate to their taxes actually being high.
That's the statistic that the right loves to throw out, but it's misleading and doesn't address the actual health of our economy. It's a really unhealthy economy that has the bulk of the income in the hands of a small group of rich people. It's not about 'class warfare' but about a 'healthy economy' in which laborers are also consumers...
Raising taxes slightly on the rich isn't about 'getting the economy going' in a direct sense - it's about paying down the debt without cutting lots of jobs or social programs that allow laborers to be consumers of goods.
Of course, this tax hike needs to be combined with making social programs more efficient and with cutting the fat in many departments (including defense, of course).
But the hard-right doesn't want to ever think about raising taxes on anyone, and the hard-left doesn't want to ever think about streamlining social programs or cutting unnecessary programs.
The problem is that in this country, the Republican leaders are hard-right, but the Democratic leaders (okay, Obama...Pelosi [so long, farewell] may be a different story?) are not hard-left - they're far more centrist.
Thus, when the left compromises, they get virtually nothing in return (except a non-shutdown of the government).
So of course, a compromise that would be fiscally responsible would include hefty cuts to the budget (similar to, but more long-term than the budget that just passed), and would include raising taxes to those levels that allowed our country to be fiscally solvent (like in the 90s...).
Yelling 'class warfare' doesn't do anything to change the fact that with a debt as massive as ours is, it has to be attacked from both sides - raising taxes in ways that will cause the least damage to our economy and to individuals, and cutting programs/spending that will cause the least damage to our economy and to individuals.
If you raise taxes on the real-wealthy, they won't suffer personally, and it will have a smaller effect on the economy (the poor and middle class put the money right back into the economy by buyin' stuff).
Obama has shown that he is willing to at least play ball on this - your guys haven't... A few of y'all are starting to admit that the defense budget (which the Obama administration has actually put on the budget, instead of pretending that it's somewhere else) needs to be trimmed along with everything else...
But I haven't heard any say 'hey, how about we get back to that thing in the 90s when the taxes on the rich were 3% higher and it didn't exactly destroy our economy?'
Obama walked into office with two already-present problems - the debt was sky-high, and the economy was crashing.
Avoiding the latter from becoming a depression required delaying the process to attack the former.
Now that the former is on the table, the right is unwilling to look at the simplest and most economically-painless option due to a strange inborn dogma that raising taxes at all will always hurt the economy.
This is a very new conservative idea -
obviously, Eisenhower of-ye-high-taxes, and Ronald Reagan of the -oops-I-cut-taxes-too-much-they-need-to-be-raised-again, and Bush 1 "read my lips, I'm willing to sacrifice political gain for the good of the country by raising taxes" were smarter than to adhere to this dogma.
Hopefully you guys will wake up and smell the coffee and help our country get stable again instead of saddling our children and grandchildren with tons of debt.
The fact is that we spend too much and tax too little.
Thus, the answer is spending less and taxing more.
To be either/or about this, imho, indicates that you are blinded by dogma and party allegiance as opposed to looking to solutions to problems.
(and yes, I agree that the left's "Republicans are going to kill grandma" rhetoric is just as hyperbolic as the right's "Democrats are going to kill grandma" rhetoric).
I made hardly any money this year (working at summer camp means your expense are pretty much 0), so I pretty much got all of my federal taxes back...
Still, this was a bit of a donation on my part, due to inflation, and all of my social-programs-payments still went to ye' ol' gvmt.
Can we all agree that we all don't want to see grandma die and that cutting spending and raising taxes is what will drive down the debt?
I mean, that's obvious, right?
JADL,
I don't know your age, but it's quite possible that by the time a plan to reform entitlements would be applied, it wouldn't apply to you (even your "suit," Paul Krugman, admits it would take years to revamp entitlements).
I'm 54, like Kirby. We were both borne in '56, which means that most of these plan adjustments would impact us (since '55 is the most common cutoff year).
A high-school drop-out turned district court judge like Emmy's dad will pay nearly a million dollars to SS by the time he retires, but he's always favoured SS and other entitlement reforms of the nature Rep Ryan proposes.
Where did you pull that number from? You're forgetting that SS taxes are capped. If you add the 2010 employer and employee maximum rates, you get just over $13K. It would take 75 years of paying the at the 2010 maximum rate to get to a million dollars.
Since you're concerned about robbery, some consider it robbery (and betrayal) to sacrifice future generations' financial futures to continue to fund unsustainable entitlement programmes in order to buy votes from dependent constituencies.
Well, that is a very fine description of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. But I thought we were talking about Social Security, a program that is sustainable (with occasional modest adjustments).
Some consider it robbery to steal half a trillion dollars from Medicare to fund ObamaCare, which already has created havoc in the health care industry (my mum's losing her company retirement health insurance next year because of ObamaCare--sure, it's personal on this end, too)
You'd have to say more about your Mother's situation for me to be able to assess it. Who did she work for? Why is the plan that covered her being terminated? What were the benefits and costs to her of that plan, and how do they stack up against the benefits and costs under PPACA? These aren't easy questions, and I'm not asking for a detailed analysis. Just an honest one.
Right now, there's change, and change can be frightening. I get that. And there is an argument in that that the benefits expected from change need to be fairly substantial relative to the magnitude of the change itself, or they're not worth doing.
I think we can sustain essential government services and a social safety net for the needy without resorting to scare-rhetoric by the left decrying every attempt at entitlement reform as murder (to which their opponents can raise the spectre of government "death panels" and abortion funding).
When your side puts forth a responsible plan for entitlement reform, it might reasonably expect a reasonable response. But it has not chosen to do so, nor do I think it likely that it will. But if you're going to use "reform" as a euphemism for "abolishment," then we're going to call you on it. And punish you at the polls.
Kirby,
On fox, they always claim that only the rich are paying taxes as it is.
To the same sort of approximation as is being used by Fox's claim, only the rich are making money as it is. I'd argue that if they're making all of the money, it's only reasonable that they're paying all of the tax. Let's chew on this for a bit.
O'Reilly says the top two percent pays 90% of the taxes, or something.
Ninety percent seems a bit high, but it's not ridiculous. But this begs another question. What percentage of the total income is taken in by the top two percent? And how does tax burden compare with income? Or even more tellingly, how does retained income scale as a function of total income?
I haven't found that stat precisely, but I did find statistics that claim that the upper 1% takes in > 34% of the total income. So it seems reasonable to guestimate that the upper 2% take in something around 45% of the total income. The effective total tax rate in the upper brackets is running about 30% these days, whereas it's about 15% for the rest of us. That gets you to 90%, but this is a very rough calculation.
The question, then, is really this: What do you think the structure of the tax code should be? If we want to hold revenue neutral, and tax everyone at the same rate, that would probably be a total effective rate of about 27%. Would you be happier to see your tax rates nearly double, so that Donald Trump could retain an extra 3% of his income? Is that fairer in your mind? Do you believe that extra 3% -- going from 70% income retention to 73% income retention, is going to make a huge impact in the Donald's willingness to generate wealth?
I thought corporations also paid taxes, but apparently GE doesn't because they contribute to BO's war chest, and thus don't have to pay taxes.
Um, no. GE didn't pay taxes, that's true. But it has everything to do with their lawyers, the complexity of the tax code, and their ability to "shelter" profits in overseas divisions. Multinationals can play all kinds of games. The problem for GE in this is that if they "repatriate" profits from overseas, they become taxable. So I don't expect the GE shareholders will be long amused by this strategy.
Clearly, someone's contract has the wrong incentives in it. I'd expect that this will get worked out.
I have a lot to learn about economics, obviously. I've read maybe seven books on the topic (I mean good books, I've also read many dozens of books by the anarchists and Marxists, which I now consider junk science). There is probably a history of the income tax on Wikipedia that would provide an overview. I was basing my data on an article in the Intercollegiate Studies Institute's new journal, which may have a bias.
"Again, there's growing opposition to the Obama administration's and the Ds' utter failures to address pressing domestic and foreign policy challenges; their strident and thuggish attacks on the Rs' proposals aren't going over so well with the independents' votes they need to add to their base, as the President's again-sinking approval numbers show."
The president's approval ratings are around 45%...'bout the same as they were a year ago.
But they're sinking! Everyone hates him!... Wait, what?
Interesting that Kirby now likes to point to the country's (nonexistent) overwhelming dissatisfaction with Obama...after Bush had consistent approval ratings in the 20s and lower thirties at the end of his time in office - under 40 percent from the middle of 2005 on.
It would seem consistent for Kirby to not place value in polls, though he seems to bring Obama's poll numbers up these days (and then misrepresents them).
stu, a couple of points:
My understanding is the Republican proposal would keep the current Medicare and SS benefit system in place for those 55 or older, not those born in 1955 or earlier. Since the plan is yet far from being enacted, it seems you're most likely to be included in the current plan should it be effected in future, don't you?
On Emmy's dad's SS contribution over his judicial career, I may have misunderstood--it seems his contribution would be closer to half a million. Perhaps he was including a forecasted return had he been able to invest the money paid to SS himself. At any rate, he's for privatisation of SS and individual ownership of retirement funds, as are we.
My mum worked for 3M Company (as did I for four summers and Christmas holidays--72 to 80 hour-a-week rotating shifts--thank God we weren't unionized, for the OT got me through college!) for 25 years. Citing increased costs for compliance with the new health reform law (ObamaCare), like many other companies are forced to do, they're shifting their 23,000 retirees to a less generous alternative or dropping their company health insurance plans.
The rest seems to take the shape of our usual disagreement over respective R and D visions for the country's future and the impending debt crisis. It's possible the President's and the Ds' class war demagoguery will do the trick for them in the next elections, but we'll see how the President does when he's forced to run on his own dubious record instead of on tediously denigrating President Bush's. I hope it's not too nasty a campaign, but judging from the left's recent Neanderthal behaviour in pro-union protests and counter-demonstrations at the Tea Party rallies, I'm not optimistic.
All that said, it's still good to have your commentary back to chew over or on.
JADL,
The Ryan plan is a voucher plan. Because the effect of any voucher plan is to eliminate the risk pooling of the current form of Medicare, those voucher dollars will buy less coverage. The only beneficiaries of breaking up the risk pool are the insurance companies and their shareholders. The taxpayers won't benefit, because once individuals exceed their coverage limits (which will happen far sooner under the Ryan plan, because those limits will be lower) the government as de facto insurer of last resort is exposed to those costs.
Regarding Emmy's dad, it's certainly plausible that he was arguing on the basis of what his contributions would have been worth had they been invested in his defined contribution (DC) plan, rather than Social Security's defined benefit (DB) plan. What this kind of thinking fails to account for is correlated risk in DC pension schemes. In effect, having the "floor" of DB through SS allows people with DC components to their pension to accept a bit more risk for considerably more return. Therefore, his lament fails to account for how removing the guarantees of a DB foundation would have impacted his overall retirement/investment strategy. Odds are, he'd have even less than he does now, because ensuring a minimal risk of destitution without the pooling implicit in a national system would have been more expensive, leaving him less money to put down on the "comfort/luxury" side of pension planning.
I view this as fundamentally a diversification issue. A DB pension (like SS) provides a foundation for retirement planning, but it shouldn't be the whole building. The security of a DB system is proportional to the size and long-term viability of the guarantor. In the present case, no guarantor is larger or more capable of long-term viability, than our national government. The rest of the financial plan probably is better built out of other materials, and I'm a fan of the DC component of my pension. The two pieces work together. But what the Republicans propose in terms of privatization amounts to substituting wood for concrete in building the foundation for retirement planning.
There is a characteristic Republicans blindness in assuming that best practices for corporations are also best practices for government. Here is a place where that's not true. It is a mistake for corporations to offer DB pension systems—they provide the wrong vesting structure for today's more mobile work force, and they give businesses the wrong incentives (e.g., underfunding), resulting in GM-like debacles. The incentives for worker and employer are better aligned in a DC system. But the government is different. Few people will quit US citizenship. It's not as if you're likely to reason, "Mexico offers a better citizenship value package, so I'll become a citizen there." It's not as if the federal government has to compete for the citizenship of US citizens. We're in it for life. Likewise, the government isn't going anywhere. It's an on-going concern; bankruptcy isn't an option. In the end, all pension systems ultimately enlist the the labor of younger people to support older people, the only real question is how you account for it. A national social security system acknowledges this reality, and builds it explicitly into the structure of society.
The issue with your Mom and 3M seems to me as if 3M is simply using PPACA as a convenient justification to do something it would have had to have done anyway. Healthcare costs are rising (for individuals, corporations, and the government), and need to be limited. The problem, as I mentioned before, is that we can't run controlled experiments with history. But I'm betting that in a world without PPACA, 3M would have made the same changes, it just would have found a different scapegoat.
Social security is in no way sustainable. It's a Ponzi scheme. It's a bunch of old people getting their cut of the money forcibly confiscated from their kids and grandkids. It's outsourced robbery.
If SS is sustainable, its only in the same way that, say, Bernie Madoff's "investments" were sustainable as long as he kept finding new people to buy into the scheme.
SS solves this problem by confiscating people's possessions under threat of incarceration. That’s un-American, and I don’t care who hears me say it. At least Bernie's dupes got to CHOOSE to take part in the scam! I have to take part in the SS scam by virtue of being an American who is employed.
Problem is, there are fewer future American taxpayers to make sure Stu has the “safety net” he’s clearly so desperately in need of! Libbos are doing their best to make sure as many as possible never leave the gates of the abortuaries. And while Kirby’s family’s quality of life might be lessened if Social Security were not around for him to draw on in his elder years (even taking into consideration his financial prudence and good Lutheran work ethic), I am fairly sure that some among us would not notice much of a difference at all.
Are we to believe that the head of a department at a world renowned school is going to be reduced to penury and be forced to buy 2 for 1 cans of dog food at the Dollar World to cook over a burn-barrel fire with only a plastic pint of Popov to keep him warm, ‘cause that’s the kind of grinding poverty SS was meant to alleviate. It was never meant to fatten up rich people’s nest eggs, so spare me the faux outrage. You’re just demeaning yourself.
I don't know how I am going to retire, in point of fact, even with SS. Without it, I think I would just die in the classroom, trying to get out one last bon mot.
Stu keeps telling us Social Security is basically sound. I've been paying in since I was about 14, washing dishes at Wyckoff Department Store in Stroudsburg, and then years of jobs as a lifeguard, secretary, writer, academic.
Finland takes a far larger cut from the paychecks -- it was more like 40%. And as you went up the pay scale, so did the slice they took. I heard that the head of Nokia pays 90% of his salary back.
One thing that unnerves me: I've heard that Obama wants to pay social security to undocumented illegals. As I see it, my social security would amount as it is to about a thousand dollars a month. I'll get another small check from the Finns for working there about five years.
Then there's whatever I can put away here.
Some people are really good at investing. I don't know where to start with that. I have all my retirement in super-low return stuff that never falls apart.
I have a number of art friends who have only their paintings to sell and not much else. Sometimes I dream I didn't get tenure and am partying with them. We all have small reputations in the art world. What's that going to get us?
I had the worst dream the other night. I was in the back of a house, and my friends from Seattle were there: the glue addict, the morphine addict, the painter on black velvet, and various other sundry sorts who never really held jobs, but lived off canvasses they sold (I like to hang out with painters).
Of course, no other animals have social security, or what have you, or banking systems.
stu, thanks for adding a few considerations (quite civilly and clearly explained) to my understanding of the respective DB and DC retirement plans. Like you, I've had both, but I favour the DC model proposed in the Ryan entitlement reform plan, though there are a number of things yet to work out in forming an actual alternative system. At least he's not proposing to pass a sweeping bill fundamentally altering our health care system to see what's in the bill as did Speaker Pelosi.
I also favour a health care alternative to our current Medicare system that allows for more choice of plans regarding areas of coverage, deductibles, etc. And I don't think 3M Company culpable of using the passage of ObamaCare or PPACA as a cynical excuse for reducing their health care outlays. That's a pretty heavy charge that could equally apply to the 1300 or so unions, companies, and even a whole state hastily exempted from the stipulations of the law as it now stands.
I wonder what your reaction is to the new Paul Krugman column "Let's Not Be Civil." Of course he's not advocating general strikes, intimidation of legislators and corporate figures, and rioting by the left as did Frances Piven, but in light of the recent debate on civility, I'm curious.
Emmy,
The long term sustainability of Social Security is basically depends on a couple of ratios: how many active workers there are per beneficiary, and the ratio between the average contribution and the average benefit.
Let's take a look at both.
First, there is a table of actuarial life expectancies here.
If we assume that people work from years 20 to 66, and are retired from years 67 on, we arrive at a ratio of 0.337 retirees per worker, steady state. I'll state two additional hypotheses: the first is that women and men are equal participants in the labor force, the second is that there are 105 male live births per 100 female live births. The first hypothesis seems asymptotically true, at least relative to the standards of this kind of back-of-the-envelope calculation, and the second is an empirical constant.
The second question is the ratio of benefits to payments. Because the payouts are essentially linear, I'll use top-of-range for both, and then criticize my choice later. I'll use the 2010 numbers, because the 2011 rate structure represents an unsound aberration. The maximum tax was $13,243.20/year. The maximum benefit (for retirement at 66) is $2,346/month = $28,153/year.
The question of sustainability boils down to this:
OASDI per active worker: $13,243.20/year
OASDI Benefits per active worker: $28,153/year * 0.337 = $9,487.22/year
So clearly the payments are substantially larger than is necessary to sustain pension benefits, and this makes sense, because I didn't account for the costs of survivor benefits, or program administration, or lifetime earning structure. But the result clearly shows that modulo minor tuning, the Social Security system passes the long-term sustainability test.
This isn't a Ponzi scheme, because Ponzi schemes rely on exponential increases the pool to "work." Social Security doesn't require exponential growth in population to make its commitments, just more-or-less steady state demographic structure within a more-or-less constant sized population.
So what is the issue? Transients in population demographics. The actual distribution of ages in this country isn't what you'd expect from a simple steady-state analysis. We have significantly more people in the 55-65 age bracket than you'd expect (Baby Boomers), co-occurring with significant reductions in average family size. This is resulting in a demographic transient, in which the number of retirees per worker is projected to peak at about .500 sometime around 2040. This kind of non-steady-state "demographic structure" doesn't affect the long-term viability of Social Security, but it does mean that the account balance in the Social Security Trust Fund will have excursions into the positive (as at present) and into the negative (c.f., predictions for 2037), before returning to zero.
After this demographic surge clears the system, and assuming no major wars or other large-scale events that upset the the demographic structure, convergence to steady state and balance should be fairly rapid.
I see two issues here w.r.t. contemporary Republican rhetoric regarding Social Security. The first is that rhetoric, such as your's, fundamentally mischaracterizes the question of Social Security sustainability. The second is that no matter how we approach the problem of dealing baby boomer's retirements, we still face the problem that number of retirees per worker will rise from roughly 0.337 to around 0.5 before falling back to the steady-state 0.337. Replacing a defined benefit system with a defined contribution system won't change this. We are in fact committed to being a burden on our children, and the Republican proposals do not change this one iota.
JADL,
I wonder what your reaction is to the new Paul Krugman column "Let's Not Be Civil." Of course he's not advocating general strikes, intimidation of legislators and corporate figures, and rioting by the left as did Frances Piven, but in light of the recent debate on civility, I'm curious.
I thought it was an interesting column, although the title was hyperbolic relative to the content, even though it's a quote.
I think there is considerable truth to Krugman's basic thesis, and at the risk of self-flattery, I made a comment in the "Trump/Theresa" thread that was somewhat similar in its underlying analysis, specifically,
I agree that Obama's a compromiser, and indeed I'd argue that that much was clear going in. His first agenda item was to try restore civility to the political debate in Washington. And it's not going well, because his political allies are looking to him for leadership rather than growing their own balls (which would help him considerably), and because his opponents (at least, an important subset thereof) have not compromising as a major objective of their own.
The core of Krugman's argument seems to me to be fairly simple, and I'd expect that you'd agree with it these points: (1) There are significant differences between the liberal and conservative positions on the issues that face us today. (2) The discussions between the liberals and the conservatives in recent years have been characterized more by heat than by light.
Where I expect concord between you and Paul would break down is with this: (3) Democrats today (I'm talking about leadership here—the President, and various Senators and Representatives—not folks carrying signs and chanting in the Wisconsin statehouse) are trying to reduce the heat through compromise and civility, but because their opposition is not equally invested in turning down the heat, the effect is to turn down the light and not the heat. And ultimately, Krugman wants the light turned up, and he's saying that he's willing to pay the price of a bit more heat to do it.
I'd say that this is the rhetorical choice that the Tea Party made, and so I'd argue that equity argues that it is not an unreasonable position to take on the Democratic side.
And I also think that Krugman's line about civility was a throw-away line that could have been better stated. What he was really arguing against is a false peace, and this is actually quite different from civility.
By way of clarification, consider discussions on this blog between the two of us. I don't think that there's been much by way of false peace between us. We disagree, often fundamentally. There have been times when that disagreement has been characterized by incivility on both of our parts; and other times, as now, when both of us seem able to express our differences clearly, forcefully, yet without egregious breaches of civility. On the whole, I think we've probably been most effective when we've managed the difficult task of being simultaneously forthright about our differences and civil to one another. YMMV, of course :-).
People come from different places of fear and disgust. Obama may be thinking of the black community and images of batons cracking black heads when he discusses the Cambridge police acting stupidly. I know cops, and have no idea how anybody could be so courageous as to be a police officer. I salute them.
When I am thinking of communism I think of the disgraceful way they treated their poets and artists and dissidents.
We tend to have peculiar and very strong images. In graduate school I remember the way the lesbians ganged up on men and women and destroyed civility in classrooms. They may Balkanization, followed by ethnic cleansing.
When I see how Sarah Palin is treated in places like Madison, it seems to me this is a take no prisoners approach that I find appalling, and is a big reason I left the left.
I don't see the right as uncivil, but no doubt others do.
I find the churches all quite amiable, but no doubt many are threatened by them.
I find far more threatening a biker bar, or any kind of bar, or even the mere mention of alcohol. But others feel very comfortable with booze, or even with methamphetamines, or crack.
People are particular, and when they talk we don't see their sticking places.
To me the most appalling kind of person is someone like Rorty. He had all kinds of brains, but considered anyone who didn't think like him to be a Hitlerite. I find that blinkered and bonkers and icky, and very threatening. We ought to be trying to reach across to each other in a healing gesture, and to find legitimacy and mutual aid within ourselves for one another.
Everyone is hurt and half crazy.
Kirbster - this latest comment of yours supports one of my main ideas regarding the origin of your worldview -
You ain't ever spent no time in places where there's a real conservative presence, and if you did, you might have a more direct understanding that the activities you see in the left are just as prevalent in the right.
Growing up in Austin, going to college in Fort Collins, CO, I've been exposed pretty equitably to liberalness and conservativeness in a few streams (Texas oil money/Texas cowboy culture/Rich suburban conservatives; Austin music-liberals, Austin tech-liberals, Austin intellectual-liberals...Fort Collins college-liberals, Fort Collins rancher-conservatives...and fundy-righties and newagey-lefties in both places)...
(There are, of course, other strains of liberalness and conservativeness with which I am less familiar, but I'd say I've a pretty wide swath of personal experience).
When people who kinda think a certain way get around other people who kinda think a certain way, they start to support each others biases and become overly dogmatic and aggressive in their viewpoints and end up thinking they're WAY RIGHT and the other side is WAY WRONG AND PROBABLY EVIL AND GOING TO KILL YOUR GRAMMA.
This is true across the political spectrum.
This is why the idea of the multiplication of factions is so important...
But you yourself, erroneously, attribute this quality specifically to liberal groups when it is, in fact, a quality one can attribute to groups generally.
How many times have you prayed that teachers stop teaching evolution...how many times have you had a football coach tell your middleschool team to go 'beat those n@$%ers...' how many times has an otherwise genial and honest and trustworthy family member talked about wanting to shoot the president... How many times has your ex-girlfriend sent you emails arguing that Obama is a usurper who wasn't born in this country...
You think the left is more unreasonable than the right because you have been directly exposed to the unreasonableness of groupthink on the left.
That groupthink exists just as much on the right.
And as much as I've seen it in the left (Bush-is-evil parties, friends exhibiting an instinctual fear of the ROTC on campus, prejudice against 'rednecks and hicks') I've seen it on the right as well.
You've been sheltered from this, living in communities where you take for granted the positive effects of the left while seeing the negative effects of their groupthink.
All of this is to say that you should try your darndest to put into perspective "I remember the way the lesbians ganged up on men and women and destroyed civility in classrooms" and that sort of personal experience, because it is not a result of liberalness as you claim but rather a result of groupthink, and therefore should not play strongly into your own personal approach to politics.
Unfortunately, these experiences wrt farleftyoutliers seem to be the center of your political viewpoint, as opposed to something you fight against...That this is so skews your viewpoint makes you a much less reliable political thinker.
Though you can't force yourself completely away from these influences, you should try to...As should we all.
For the record, I agree with your views on Marxism. I spend lots of time out here in LaLa land arguing with those who support it or present a watered-down view of it... (I'm actually pretty pleased that my Film School in Los Angeles has a nice balance of conservative and liberal profs...)
You should feel proud (along with pretty much everyone else on this blog) that I often steal y'alls rhetoric when arguing with Marxists and anti-Westers wrt politics (as well as with new-agey wackjobs wrt religion).
But your idea that Obama is a Marxist, and that purty much all Democrats are Marxist..that Bill Clinton with the 39% tax rate for the highest tax bracket was Marxist... That repealing the taxcuts is class warfare... That Obama stepped into Bush's economy-crap and somehow the feces he's covered in is all his own... That's all wrong.
(Apologies for the scatalogical metaphor...)
I've been to Texas, Brett, but only to see the surrealist paintings in Houston at the Menil Foundation. I can't stand preaching along the lines of Jerry Lee Lewis's brother, and am not fond of Jerry Lewis, either (I like the comedian, but not the pianist and his 13 year old bride).
So you have a point here. I do think everyone sees some kind of light and has no choice but to bear witness to it. The alternative is to live an artificial life. Some choose to do that, of course, but they sacrifice their souls in the process.
Even poor crazy J here has some light in him, and when he focuses on that, instead of merely abusing the others here (his abuse of John Hanson probably drove Hanson off the board again).
I don't like roughness, and when a forty year old marries a 13 year old I can't take it. There ought to be a spirit of mutuality.
What I find appalling in the left is its elitism and fashionableness at the expense of common decency (the love of Sade is disgusting in the left). I can't stand it when people get into empty suits whether it's professional wrestling, CEO type suits, or the suits of the evangelical preacher who is merely in need of money for his mistresses. IT's possible for anyone to be seduced by temporary delights, or by genocidal impulses (race, gender, class).
God requires more of us.
Marxism satisfies itself with very minor pleasures: a roof over the head for everyone, and two chickens in every pot is a discouraging framework whether it's capitalist or state capitalist.
There is something else just as urgent.
Emmy:
I'm going to have to disagree with your characterization of Social Security as a "Ponzi Scheme."
There are obvious reasons why Social Security--a social insurance program passed by our Congress near the end of the Great Depression--which began in 1939, is in no sense a Ponzi Scheme.
A Ponzi Scheme is a fraudulent investment vehicle, created to entice victims into placing "investment" capital with an expectation of high returns. In a Ponzi Scheme, early "profits" or "dividends" are paid to early investors with the money acquired from subsequent investors. Rather than investing the capital in stocks or bonds or ventures, the promoter confiscates the capital for his own use. All Ponzi Schemes eventually fail, because there is no real profit being generated, and never enough money to pay off the growing pool of investors, because the money needed to do so is never realized. The "paper profits" promised are based on exaggerated or exalted estimates of returns, which are impossible to achieve or sustain.
Social Insurance systems are based on the principle that the number of people qualified to draw benefits--the amount and kinds of those benefits (as classes of entitlement), will never exhaust the fund created to pay them. Social insurance is based on demographics--how many people are contributing, how much they contribute, how many people will qualify for benefits, and how many will die before they ever qualify, etc.
Social Security began as a fairly simple program which would yield modest benefits only to people who had worked for a requisite number of years. Its original incarnation was well-designed and, given the post-War years of prosperity, it would easily have been solvent for centuries. But over the decades, the Congress began to add categories of entitlement: Wives, children, survivors, disability, and to liberalize the qualifications as well, reducing duration of work, duration of marriage, eliminating the means test for "retirement" after age 65, and so on. The practical result of all this expansion of entitlement was that Social Security became a social welfare program, rather than a pure insurance system designed to reward only the workers who had actually performed the work (and paid into the system). Even so, the Social Security Trust Funds (there are separate trust funds for RSI and Disability) are still in excellent shape, and should continue to be viable, with very minor adjustments, through the present century (at least).
Medical entitlement, however, is a different matter, and shouldn't be spoken of in the same context as Social Security. Medical costs can't be codified in the same way we can the demographics of aging and the cost of living. Medical costs are market dependent, which is to say they can't be accurately predicted. We do know, however, that any system which defines entitlement from the benefits side, is likely to be exploited by anyone posing as a provider of services. Medicare fraud is very big business.
End Part I
Part II
As a middle class American working citizen, Emmy, you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose, in a well-run social insurance system. If you live to be, say, 75, you will recoup all of the money you paid into it (along with the interest). Social Security has functioned wonderfully for 70 years.
Personally, I believe that the program has been expanded so far beyond its initial purpose and applicability that it needs to be curtailed. By eliminating some of the classes of entitlement, we could reduce the drag on the benefits trust funds, and extend their life indefinitely (assuming we continue to generate decent income from investment and employment in the future).
Medicare, however, is a different story, and I have no easy answers there. Clearly, we can't afford to give everyone "Cadillac" health care. Health care is a business, and the range of that care varies widely across the spectrum of that business. We can't "afford" to give millions of dollars of care to everyone. There are different ways to express the "efficiency" of the market in health care. Naked privatized insurance, with its profit motive, is unattractive as a legislator of "fairness" because it looks primarily at the bottom line. Publicly administered programs, like Medicare, are subject to the whims of social engineers. Hence, your "death panels." We already have death panels, and they work for the major private health insurance companies. If you think government treats people with disdain, how do think private policy adjusters treat them? As blind risk ciphers.
When you get into your 60's, Emmy, I'm sure you will want available, and affordable, health care. At that point, you will want your own welfare protected. I can assure you this will be true. Short of total financial independence, I doubt you'll be able to cover the costs of your treatment without some kind of insurance.
Post a Comment