
In the beginning was the Word. Many think this means the triumph of the verbal, but perhaps it's more about fairness.
Or, the advent of Law.
Silence is probably as important as words. There are many different kinds of silence: scary silence, a pregnant silence, a jittery silence, the silence of the afternoon in which a calico cat steps through the neighbor's cucumbers. A humorous silence, a demanding silence, an embarrassed silence. The final silence of Christ on the Cross.
Words can be used as swords, or as the ability to demonstrate one's superiority. They can also establish relationships of love and trust. They can seduce, or they can silence.
I'm dubious about words, but not about the Word.
Surrealism and Lutheranism were both primarily verbal and narrative in their intentions. Surrealism privileged marvelous moments of love, outside of time. Lutheranism did the same, but the love was agape, as opposed to Dionysian.
Love is something quite real for both movements: they posit a dream of love that rises above families, and toward an ideal. The surrealists thought of ideal women, usually in the form of prostitutes. There is of course true love, and then false love. Surrealists generally discover that their love for a prostitute was a false love at the end of their novels, that it was a mirage. Christians on the other hand posit that their love is a true one, and that it's eternal.
What is love, and what does it have to do with words, and with the Word?
Dionysian love is fraudulent, although captivating. It turns one into a prisoner.
Surrealists were not generally close to their families of origin. They floated away in a miasma of irrelational love (Soupault's novel Last Nights of Paris is the ur-novel of all surrealist novels in this respect). That kind of love is also praised among the modernists. William Carlos Williams (who translated Soupault's novel) also dealt in that kind of love.
There is another kind of love announced by Mother Theresa.
A love for the poor.
The surrealists had their own communities and journals, as do Lutherans. I see writing as productive and predictive of certain kinds of communities with certain values in the texts that tend to reproduce themselves in their readers.
In the same way, manifestoes, Bibles, and Constitutions predict and prefabricate certain kinds of communities. The specific phrases of the different candidates who are now running offer a glimpse of the kinds of community they seek to call into being with their candidacies. Who will pay for it? Who will benefit? All must speak to our central values of equality and fairness, to God and to country, and yet they must joke out of existence competing kinds of fairness and community.
If I hear the slightest trace of Marxism in a candidate's speech or in his or her writings, I am dead set against them. We've seen Marxism in the twentieth century enough to know that it is at least as virulent and lethal as smallpox. On the other hand, candidates who recall Madison, Hamilton, Lincoln, or the notion of Protestant and Catholic communities, fascinate me. Robust mixed economies founded on the Word.
That sounds like a hymn to me, and I will sing along with Mitch (although Daniels just dropped out). Or Bobbie, or Herman, or Sarah.
IMAGE ABOVE: Vasnetsov's Christ (Russian Orthodox).
49 comments:
Kirby,
The Gospel of John begins with several ambitious appropriations. It begins with "In the beginning...", "Ἐν ἀρχῇ," the exact same words as the LXX Old Testament, and so the appropriations begin with taking on (or over) the authority of the Jewish Scriptures. Next, it appropriates the Greek philosophical notion of "λόγος" -- Logos -- which essentially meant a moral foundation for the universe that pre-existed their notoriously amoral gods. Then, it creates a syncretic ideal -- identifying the Greek pre-existing moral foundation of the universe with the Jewish God who created the Universe. All of this in Chapter 1, verse 1.
But as ambitious as this is, it is not John's topic sentence. That comes a few verses later, in verse 14, "And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth." With this, John creates a further syncretism, identifying the Word with Jesus, and so Jesus with God, existing with and as God at the beginning.
Trying to identify the Word with Law is to miss the mark entirely. Look at the key words from John 1:14 -- glory, grace, and truth. The Law exists for our benefit, it is not the Word, although it is of the Word. But looked at in this way, confusing the Word with the Law is the prototypical sin -- it is a confusion of the creator with the created.
And let me state a reservation to your raising up "love" as somehow being a particularly Lutheran characteristic, because agape is Christian characteristic, and I don't see Lutherans as being particularly distinguished within the Christian community in this regard, either for better or for worse. I believe you're mistaken when you characterize Mother Theresa's love for the poor as "different." It is agape, God's love for the creatures of his creation, different perhaps in degree, but not in kind, from what we experience in our Christian life.
I do find it curious how many of your heroes have spent their life chasing sexual gratification, whereas you, and me, and seemingly most of the regulars on this forum live chaste lives.
Indeed, I think part of why I'm drawn here is a sense that we are similar in many ways, and faithfulness is a big part of that. And part of what I see as an error in your thinking is the constant identification of libertine sexuality with political liberality. I've observed no such correlation.
Another difference is that I see love -- agape -- as being far more significant in maintaining faithfulness than the law. I don't cheat on my wife. But it's not because I fear divine retribution, it's because I love her, and I know that betraying her would hurt her tremendously. The law, in this case, functions in its role to inform. If we're breaking the law, that's a sign to us that we may not be loving as we ought.
And this brings us around to another point of contact. I see those who hold themselves above the law, and not accountable to it, as people we ought to be dead set against. We differ some in where we see this lawlessness, and so it goes.
I was thinking of the beginning of Genesis, but ok, and ok.
You have to remember that until I met Riikka, my art heroes were my heroes. I didn't live the life they led, but I loved their writing.
I'll write more on this later: I have to get four kids to bed.
Part of what I find fascinating about the novelist Philippe Soupault (he wrote about eighty books and I've read all of them, mainly in French) is that he's honest about the vacuity of his conquests. He just doesn't know which way is up. He was close friends with the Catholic novelist Georges Bernanos later on in life. He never converted, though.
Another novelist who fascinates me is John Irving. In Garp, the man practically drills a hole in his own head with his sexual conquests. And yet, the narrative never catches up to the damage.
I think it's great fun that there's this vicious circle in many novelists' writing. I'm not sure that Soupault was a hero to me (I love his style!), but I love his style!
I enjoyed the style!
I wouldn't say either that Jesus is my hero.
Not exactly a hero.
I wouldn't say Stephen the martyr is a hero to me.
Hero feels too athletic.
I wouldn't even call them a model.
I'm not sure what I'm looking for when I read. Not so much a model as ironies and paradoxes and of course charming humor.
I don't know what the Bible is, but it isn't charming in the way a contemporary novel or poem can be.
Genesis for instance is just so vast and bizarre. Abraham burns his wife over and over, as do almost all the heroes of Genesis. Joseph is pretty mean to his brothers, until he gives them some food. There are these vast historical ironies in the Pentateuch. They are so vast it is awe inspiring, and doesn't seem even to be about individuals so much as it is about vast patterns in history, so vast that they are no longer personal in their nature.
The Bible is just plain weird.
Even in Homer there are personal decisions. Agamemnon chooses to kill his daughter Iphigenia in exchange for a favorable wind. Then his wife kills him for that. It seems fairly direct, almost like he was bitch-slapped by karma.
It's very clear how one action yields a clear punishment.
But in Genesis there's a weird ghostly humor in operation, and I guess that that humor is God's. But it's such a vast weird humor that it is totally alienating. Abraham should in no way have been able to let other people sleep with his wife and get away with it.
But he does.
And there are all these weird fellows in that book doing the same thing. They get caught, and whammo, they give up their wives. And then the catchers of the wives find out they don't want to break the law, which rises above them, and threatens them.
Even though they aren't even Jewish in most cases.
I'm used to a fairly quick turn around: you made your bed, now sleep in it, in a novel. Garp cheats on his wife, and giggles a bit. Then, his wife cheats on him, back, and he likes this far less, and hell breaks loose, and he dies for all his sins, rather immediately.
Abraham lives 945 years or something.
The time scales are so vast as to defy common sense. And what happens isn't so clearly meant as karma. I know karma is a hindu term, but I find it fun to mix religions here, since much of contemporary lit seems to deal with pretty quick revelatoins on an intimate time scale.
In Last Nights in Paris, Soupault's narrator (he says it isn't a novel but an act of witness, but it is still usually categorized as a novel) has been following a whore named Georgette for a few months, stalking her (not to kill her but because he's in love with her, or sees her as some kind of anima, or perhaps is just astonished by her in a really idealistic way). Then he sleeps with her, expecting his whole life to transform into gold.
In fact, nothing at all happens.
He's baffled by this, and by her, and the novel ends.
I find this quite close to Biblical reality in that nothing at all adds up in any strict summing up.
Kirby,
I wouldn't say either that Jesus is my hero.
Savior. :-)
I don't know what the Bible is, but it isn't charming in the way a contemporary novel or poem can be.
The Bible is a collection of works, written over the course of a thousand years, and so lacks an easy classification. It includes history, prophesy, myth, and poetry. It is the literary record of a relationship between God and his peoples, vetted by generations for authenticity. And I think you're far to dismissive of it -- there are sections of the Bible that really bring it.
Genesis for instance is just so vast and bizarre. Abraham burns his wife over and over, as do almost all the heroes of Genesis. Joseph is pretty mean to his brothers, until he gives them some food.
Genesis is an amalgam of several distinct works, and it reflects laws and customs that are quite foreign to us, e.g., the semitic concept of "sister wife." Indeed, it's not entirely clear that the authors did, and their efforts to explain a verbal tradition that they didn't fully understand resulted in some peculiar literary invention.
Actually a lot of Marxist thought comes out of utopian community theory of the 19th Century. Which it shares with several religious movements.
The idea of an ideal community--which seems to animate a lot of your thought--and which depends upon the obedience of the members to a strict dogma of performance and belief--has the same inspirational ring as some socialistic systems.
Rather than the dialectic your propose, I'd suggest one in which messianic political systems like Marxism and Catholicism and even several Protestant religions serve the same ends: A totally controlled society in which individual and group behavior is tightly monitored and bound up with procedure and ritual, and which ultimately requires absolute relinquishing of freedom in favor of codes of duty--which is opposed to a enlightened one in which the power passes upward from the people through their elected representatives, in which the concentration of power through concentration of capital or "sacred" godheads is kept to a minimum in the interests of both individual and general freedom.
Obviously, confusion between word as religious law, and word as secular law is responsible for a lot of the mischief done in the world. Look at Islam. Look at Catholicism. When societies are run as theocratic or utopian oligarchies, things quickly get out of hand. Think of the Mayans, or the Cahtolic church in the Middle Ages, or Germany and Japan in the 20's and 30's, or the Soviet Union, or present day Iran and Afghanistan.
Well, I have no argument that the Bible is stupendous, but I don't think there's anything else like it in what we usually call American literature or English literature. It's such a strange book, or collection, and simply terrifying at times in terms of descriptions. Lot's wife turns to salt. Even Stephen King can't touch that. The opening of the Red Sea. Even Melville doesn't get that nautically weird. Christ's parables are really mind-blowing. There is nothing in the Zen tradition that is remotely as weird as the story of the Good Samaritan, or the parable of the Talents. God is a jester, but on a gigantic scale unlike anything that humans have written or touched. Many people say that this is a historical record written by distinct people. But there's something weirdly impersonal about the stories that lift them way beyond any mere person having written them. Even the Gospels and the letters of Paul do not seem to have been written by human beings. Or maybe we just don't have souls like theirs any longer. No one else has the reach these people had, and it must be because God was actually talking with them, or through them.
I would agree somewhat with Stu that you seem to be focussing too much on law and missing grace and gospel in your reading of the Bible. The coherent whole of Genesis is about God's promises, God's call, God's grace, and being in relationship with God. From that relationship flows relationships with other humans and the world, hence meaning and purpose in life. The flaws and weaknesses of folks like Abraham and Jacob, etc., are purposely there to remind us all that we are sinners like they were--yet God works in and through them and us. In Lutheran lingo, we are at one and the same time saints and sinners.
While I'd agree with you that there is a place for silence in life, and silences involve a variety of meanings and contexts; I'd also emphasise that in Lutheran tradition the spoken word/Word [and they are understood as being synonymous by many Lutherans] takes priority over the written word. Luther, as you may know, once stresed this by saying, something to the effect, [I'm paraphrasing here] "The church/gospel/word is a mouth-house, not a pen-house." Moreover, in Genesis, God speaks [does not write] creation into existence.
I find your blog interesting, sometimes thought-provoking, sometimes elusive, sometimes vane [as the author of Eccles. says, "vanity of vanities all is vanity" and most likely all blogs are vanity including yours and mine, since we all stumble over ego repeatedly in pathetic ways], and I'm not sure at times whether you are writing tongue-in-cheek, or are soberly serious--I conjecture that it's both. At any rate, enough for now. I wish you God's Shalom,
Dim Lamp
The Bible is a testament to inspiration and the imaginative power of our brains. It is a document created by man for his own use, as a tool to organize society, explain mysteries, and offer solace to mortal beings aware of their own mortality. Conceived during man's intellectual innocence, its influence is receding as our knowledge of history and the universe increases. Science and technology doesn't have all the answers, but the Bible has been shown to be irrelevant in a number of areas.
None of which, of course, suggests that the ultimate questions it addresses are not important and deserve our attention. But most people are led to accept easy or convenient fill-ins for intellectual curiosity and confusion, rather than thinking independently and freely. This is what "church" offers to most people. The Bible is a grab bag of metaphorical stories and sayings, out of which almost any argument can be built. It "proves" nothing.
It should be treated today as an archeological curiosity, a document transformed and added to and altered over time, which is fruitful ground for study. But as a guide to conduct or as evidence of any "truths" it's obviously a "sacred" text with little applicability to serious thinking (or thinkers).
"I find this quite close to Biblical reality in that nothing at all adds up in any strict summing up."
Welcome to Oz. Or Wonderland. Or Neverland.
"Biblical reality"? It's a storybook full of weird stuff. And on this, you base your approach to practical life?
Curtis, as a courtesy to our readers, can you tell us
a. if you have read the Bible
b. if so, which edition
c. recently?
d. the whole thing?
We're quite curious!
i don't give a flighty flock
what curtis reads
all though i am of the opinon that much of our pesent squalor is the result of the wrong books being read and or no books being read at all i love librarians and i am a book trader
but i do take umbrage with the blind negligence inherent in his overarching judgement
for someone so enamored of books and art it would seem curtis that you might at least acknowledge the aesthetic insistence within religions such as catholicism have thrived
and the end of religious (catholic) education is freedom
but it becomes linked to service so the freedom of thought one possesses is not for ones self but for the world for teaching for expressing the greatest thoughts if at all possible
poetry
can we speak a little bit about catholics and poetry
we insist on an ancient form of lived poetry
recited and sung daily around the world
you may see it as thought control but then you ignore the fact that the medium of worship is actually a medium of freedom par excellence' for it proposes to take away all that burdens us
which is the theme of all our worship i guess
but the closer one gets to freedom of thought the closer one is to the reality of pride and sin so it is important to have a medium within which to organize ones thoughts
man on his own is foolish and intrepid
i don't know it is hard to explain
why someone would sit amongst the swell of sinners standing idly before a cosmic ritual of minor importance and derive so much from it
i guess it is the same idea as hollywood
an organizied form of repetitive distraction for the masses
only hollywood has lavished itself in its riches and has brought forth little but decadence to show for it...but of course it is no match for the inherent decadence of roman catholicism
i think schools good schools libraries philosophy and art are the foundations of public expression in the world...o and good food
if a person can apprehend any of it he should have no problem at all with freedom of thought
o sure we killed a few heretics
but great care was taken to make sure we got all the right ones
:)
jh
eliade said something to the effect man is by nature religious and he rejects one form of religion in order to be possessed by another...even if it is peculiarly private
i do so appreciate the high level of cognitive banter here
dim lamp shines brightly into the discourse gracious and real
hope springs
While Kirby is right to suggest that the collection of books of the Bible can be read as containing developments of a number of literary genres (I recall reading long ago Leland Ryken's study of biblical literature according to genre theory), it's grounded in describing the relationship of God to man and the duties attendant to the latter in relation to God, to others, and to the created world. This makes it relevant to all ages and human conditions in spite of CF's claim it is "irrelevant" in a number of areas (I see such vague use of "irrelevant" as a vestige of sloppy '60s thinking--"irrelevant" to whom? to what?).
Nor was the Medieval Church as unrelentingly monolithic as CF claims, though that's another issue.
But if CF was vaguely referring to biblical literature in relation to modern science and technology, it's interesting, for example, that many physicists of the last century seemed reluctant to accept the Big Bang theory of the creation of the universe because it seemed to accord better with the creation accounts in Genesis than the previous eternal universe or "Steady State Theory" (and just to mention also that its co-founder, Georges LeMaitre, was a Catholic priest as well as a physicist), according to the particle physicist Stephen Barr (in "Modern Physics and Ancient Faith" 2003). Perhaps stu's acquainted with the book, as he's probably the only regular here capable of following the technical points in Barr's book.
JH, Jesus started out as a Jew, and to a great extent remained a Jew. Luther started out as a Catholic, and he wanted to remain a Catholic. It's true that Lutheran poetry sucks, but only because we were too poor for a long time to devote ourselves to its mystery. Now we're catching up, and a Lutheran poetry and artistic explosion is in the pipeline.
My hunch is that Curtis has never read the Bible. If he had, he would have converted. Just my ~ hunch!
Kirby, I do think there is a connection between the beginning of the Gospel of John and the Creation accounts in Genesis with respect to the Law. For as stu well knows the Greek "logos" means "reason" as well as "word," if that God "spoke" (the "Reason") be taken metaphorically. stu's right that the Greek and Jewish ideas of the moral order can be syncretised; and the ancient Jewish idea of the eternal pre-existent Torah, or Law, was early on identified with the divine "Wisdom" (often personified in the OT literature). In the "Confessions" (284) St Augustine refers not only to the Word, but also to God as Wisdom and Truth. This seems not only a reference to the Creation in time, but, as stu mentioned, to a timeless origin of all things in the Wisdom, or Word, or Reason of God, which is God. But of course that's not to say for Christians the Law can be identified with God himself, only with the source of the divine order that makes the world intelligible and rationally comprehensible for us as reasonable creatures endowed with some small part of the divine Reason.
Thanks to Dim Lamp for thoughts on Kirby's posting as well as to the inimitable jh for his thoughts on faith and freedom.
i thought jesus started out as an irish catholic
ah well
i guess i need to be open to learning all the time
JADL,
... it's interesting, for example, that many physicists of the last century seemed reluctant to accept the Big Bang theory of the creation of the universe because it seemed to accord better with the creation accounts in Genesis than the previous eternal universe or "Steady State Theory" (and just to mention also that its co-founder, Georges LeMaitre, was a Catholic priest as well as a physicist), according to the particle physicist Stephen Barr (in "Modern Physics and Ancient Faith" 2003). Perhaps stu's acquainted with the book, as he's probably the only regular here capable of following the technical points in Barr's book.
I've not read Barr's book, although it sounds interesting from the review on Amazon. I have read a number of books with somewhat similar perspectives, and of course the accident of my employment mean that I've known more than a few cosmologists.
At issue is the Anthropic observation: the physical constants of the universe seem tuned to facilitate the evolution of greater and greater complexity, including life, including us.
There are three generally recognized ways to deal with the Anthropic observation.
1. Belief that the Universe was created by an intelligence. This one is actually fairly popular among scientists, although it tends to lead from atheism to a somewhat banal theism. Of course, scientist who have prior religious commitments are very comfortable with this.
2. "We got lucky." This is the premise that something had to happen, and what happened was a universe capable of evolving life.
3. The multiverse. This is the premise that there is an unimaginably large number of universes, each with its own physical constants. Because there are so many, it's not remarkable that at least one (ours) meets the preconditions for life.
Alternative (2) is generally recognized to be untenable. This leaves the choice to (1) or (3), but it's hard to argue that (3) is any less a value-based choice than (1), and the supposed "rational" view that God doesn't exist is revealed to be as much a faith-based position as the one that he is.
For another bit of somewhat similar special pleading, I'll note the last chapter of Hawking's "A Brief History of Time," which tries to evade the notion of a creator by using the geometry of space-time to argue against the notion of that time has a beginning, a "first moment." He seems to think that this destroys the notion of a creator, i.e., "no moment of creation, ergo, no creator." To me, this merely points out some unexpected limits in Hawking's theological imagination.
Kirby,
My hunch is that Curtis has never read the Bible. If he had, he would have converted. Just my ~ hunch!
I'm skeptical. I think people convert to Christianity because they've encountered Christian community, and they see in it something that they want to be a part of. [E.g., I believe this is relevant in your decision to reconnect to the Church.] My sense is that where Curtis has encountered Christian community, he's found it to be unattractive. I'll point, e.g., to his Monday, May 23, 2011 10:02:00 AM EDT comment, in which he seems to imply that Christian communities are held together by "a strict dogma of performance and belief."
In this, I think we're well served to be realistic. There are some pretty unattractive Christian communities out there: communities that rely on fear and intimidation to keep their members "in line," communities that are abusive, communities that are narrow-minded and insular. And there are some great Christian communities out there: communities in which faith is lived out in the world, in truth, and justice, and peace.
At the same time, different personalities, and different life conditions, are going to make some individuals more receptive to a Christian message, and others less so. Some people derive their sense of self-worth from being in community. They'll be eager to join, "to be a part," but they may have no real investment in the community other than that. These folks tend to dilute authentic community because value it only to the extent it benefits them, but they're difficult to recognize, and difficult to keep out. And there are other folk who derive their sense of self-worth from their individuality, and they're not likely to be interested in the being a part of a community that has claims on them, no matter how attractive that community is otherwise.
For my part, I'd argue that someone who hasn't read significant portions of the Bible, and who doesn't know its stories, is at a substantial handicap in understanding western literature generally. I'm surprised that Curtis accepts such a handicap voluntarily, but I don't think that removing it would put him at much risk of saving his soul. It is perfectly possible to know the stories without entering the community of faith.
I wish for Curtis that he would connect with Christian community, because I believe he'd find life to be fuller and more authentic if lived out with people of faith. Finding the right community will clearly matter for him.
As a Presbyterian in my childhood, I was made to read parts of the New Testament. Some years later, when I was contemplating a religious application for military deferment, I read the Holy Torah, though I can hardly remember (consciously) anything of these readings. As an adult, I never took seriously anything I'd been taught "in church" and nothing I have ever read or heard anyone say--and that would include some very erudite people--has caused me to become interested, or, as is said, "given me pause" to reconsider.
Should Kirby read the Koran to better understand his "enemies"?
And what is this editorial "we" you're using? I don't think anyone else is in a mood to cede their representation to you here, Kirby.
This little community even as it is located in cyberspace and none of us have met one another (well, I've met JEP and a few others like Tom, who no longer posts here much, and I met Carl Sachs, though he no longer posts here).
I think Stu is right that Curtis may not find Christian communities attractive. He may not find community life attractive, although he is married. I think I love the church because it's one of the last family oriented institutions.
As a young man I liked the Beats and surrealists, but they were not family friendly, and in fact were predatory in sexual terms. You had to watch your butt! as they say with the likes of Ginsberg and Burroughs prowling about.
And ultimately the drug use and the lack of any kind of rules except enjoy yourself as much as you can seemed like a negative algorhythm (one that drove the community toward implosion).
It's hard to get my own kids to go to the church. They didn't like Sunday school with one exception (my eldest daughter Lola found that she could pursue her acting skills to some degree by being an acolyte). The others didn't find anything there that was for them. I wished that there could be sports leagues for the boys. They are avid sports players. This would require a lot of setting up of leagues and coaching, and we're already full up on that front now.
I still have hope for my youngest daughter.
Curtis has said that there is nothing in the Bible or in religion for serious thinkers, and that it is irrelevant to anyone who is serious. This seemed like quite a swipe.
He then objected to JADL's objection to the term "irrelevant" and has said via backpost that he would no longer post here unless I banned JADL.
I'm not doing that. I think if Curtis wants to fire off posts that dismiss 80% or even 50% of Americans as irrelevant, he can himself be considered irrelevant in return by others here, who think of the 60s left as irrelevant to what they might want to see in a community.
I do remember in my few harsh exchanges with JADL that he packs a mean punch when he wants to, but generally speaking he's cleaned that up.
I liked the way Stu and JEP approached one another as humorous antagonists of a sort, without low blows or dismissal. It was a novelty in cyberspace to disagree with love. I think it is something to strive for! But maybe it can't be done without actual love which is partially based on respect. If Curtis has decided that the rest of us (aside from J) are irrelevant and not serious, why does he come here?
It's a bit odd to me.
One of the things I want in a community is a space where children and women are safe. That isn't true in most of the avant-garde turf. In feminist circles women of a certain kind are safe (especially lesbians) but everyone else is in danger of being called irrelevant.
I think the Word was meant to include everyone, especially in the Johannine incarnation of the Word as instanced by Christ. Did He ever turn anyone away who came in with a sense of wanting to belong. If so, what conditions did He set? Did he not even include the Romans and the soldiers who killed Him among those He Loved?
Some people turn away from humanity toward pets. I don't think Christ had a pet. Was He allergic, or just preferred people, because they have souls?
JADL IS GETTING AN ERROR FORM, so I'm posting this for him. KO
stu, thanks for your observations on the Anthropic Principle. Barr's pretty sceptical about the multiverse idea for a number of reasons, not least due to his objection that it seems to reassert the idea that in an infinite number of possible universes the orderly laws of nature we observe in ours are then the result of chance.
The multiverse idea has more recently been promoted by Hawking in his attempts to locate a "Theory of Everything." I've only read his "Brief History of Time," but we watched a documentary/interview dealing with this recently. His "new" theory seems to try to "save the appearances" for philosophical naturalism or materialism. In an appendix to his book, Barr seems to find some value to Aquinas's "First Cause" argument in the latter's rejection of the notion of an infinite explanatory chain of simultaneously acting causes.
Barr's book is fairly far-ranging; he's a couple of chapters on flaws in the attempts to use computer models in describing the human mind and he has an extended treatment of design arguments, but his main focus is on critiquing the variety of scientific and philosophical arguments for naturalism and materialism.
graphic depiction of pen and paper
and the invitation
leave your comment
a box into which i tap out words
i hear the faint ticking and tapping of the keys
my keystroke as nimble as the
fingers of a thief
in the word was the beginning
in the beg inning the other team is beggin for some hits
in how is a baseball report and the book of genesis similar
god struck and swing anamisses
but the lightening was effective none the less
this blog has turned into a veritable working library of important commentary
i am afraid i only have my occasional zaney blabbers
to contribute
jesus had a pretty big social agenda it was bigger than any other jew had at the time
more ecumenical more cognizant of the goodness of the goyim
they don't make jews like jesus anymore
netanyahu sort of slapped ole obama upside da head
o i am sure the israelis are jumpin some with what with street riot in every major town what would mohammeddd do
sit and drink some coffee and let whole days go past
the message of the good scientists today seems to be
forget about the infinitely small stuff the stuff only a privileged few ever get to see forget about the big big heavens and these little pimple bursts of technology out into space like it makes a shit hairs worth of difference for goddz sake
naw
we need to look at t the real
today the odd buzz of the planet
think of it all the directed lines of comunication going on in the world the vast warbly web that no one sees this franklinian nexus into which we've stupidly wandered this electronic gridlock that has so much power now over so many
even me
it is easy to prove there is no god
it is the living out of the conclusion that appears so untenable
unless you cavort amid the higher regions of
caballah
which is a sporting goods store in florida i think ( SMILEY FACE)
anyway those blokes dabble in the concept of utter nothingness
and a desired state
so maybe marxism and atheistic humanism and existential ism and all the frantic isms that have come about since the catholics don't seem to care anymore ( they used to clean the streets )
all these things are just some contorted social inversion of political thought and marx hits the marx time and a again i mean the argument always comes forth
the regimes that took on marx as a governmental policy program we're not failed cpaitalist states as the grand master of wisdom for the world ole karl with the dirty top coat the brilliant writer with a penchant for sausage and nothing to pay for it insisted on being poor all the time and he made it work that's what he really wanted he wanted all of us to be like him just live a really poor destitute life and things will be OK
i don't know there needs to be more bravery more people willing to embrace poverty as a legitimate mode of operation
the meek will get stomped and cast to the edges but they will eventually win i suppose
having mastered discomfort
i gotta go
once again
this stream is my link to substantial thought in the world
i don't read the ny times anymore
you could all work at being a little more ludic as i keep saying when i get over here
but the general tenor of conversation is downright brilliant
i guess if kirby wasn't such a invetereate goofball he'd have more cred in the bigger hipper world of cyberblabber
as it is he's our precious little secret
he gets to play batman and robin
with utter impunity any time he likes
now that's revenge
did you hear about the mushroom who walked into a bar
bartender says hey we don't serve mushrooms here
the toadstool replies
why not
i'm a fun guy
jh
jh's comment sparked off an odd thought.
Let's stipulate that centrally planned economies with party dictatorships (what Kirby erroneously but understandably refers to as Marxist systems) have been inefficient. Kirby judges these politico-economic systems (not unreasonably) against the "western system" of representative democracy together with regulated free marketplaces.
But my question isn't whether Marxism is good or bad as measured against us, but rather, is it good or bad as measured against the systems that it replaced?
It might be interesting to think about specific successions. It's certainly arguable that the average/median standard of living in both Russia and China improved as a result of their revolutions. It would be hard to argue that the average/median improved in either Cuba or North Korea, but I'm not sure either actually went down.
Also, while I can think of a few examples wherein a centrally planned dictatorship was succeeded by a western system (this describes, in varying degrees, much of the former Warsaw pact), I'm hard pressed to think of an example wherein a western system was succeeded by a centrally planned dictatorship. I guess this is an opportunity to argue about Cuba, Chile, and South Vietnam, but I would question in the first and last case whether the predecessor state was "western system," and Chile's case whether it ever progressed to a centrally planned dictatorship.
I see a few problems w theway Stu has phrased question.
1 What reliable statistics do we have for Cuba, N. Korea, or S. Vietnam. Since communist govs control all info tightly, and there is no independent publishing, we have no way to know. Access to computers in Cuba is strictly limited to party members and to party approved sites. Anyone who wanders outside those arenas is subject to five years in a work camp.
This is surely worse in N. Korea.
Our media is so embarrassed at what it did to Vietnam, that no stories at all circulate on that topic even within our own media.
2. How can we measure median happiness w/o some interest in the lives of individuals?
3. The East Bloc would be our best bet: Estonia, Hungary, Poland, and Romania. Life under Ceausescu, anyone?
4. My book on Codrescu answers this question, should anyone care to consult it.
I'm on a crummy public computer at Hartwick college. Pardon typos, please.
Kirby,
I see a few problems w theway Stu has phrased question.
1 What reliable statistics do we have for Cuba, N. Korea, or S. Vietnam. Since communist govs control all info tightly, and there is no independent publishing, we have no way to know.
I agree that there's a problem about gathering reliable statistics in countries where the state controls the media. I don't see this, though, as a problem in how I phrased the question, although it is a difficulty that needs to be addressed in trying to answer it.
A partial answer might be found retrospectively. What I'm thinking of here is the denunciations of the Stalinist system during the Kruschev era, and similar phenomenon. From time to time, it's in the interest of the folks in power to point out just how badly their predecessors screwed things up. Of course, this sort of thing is subject to manipulation as well, but at least some of the truth gets out. Maybe enough to give us insight.
Part of my thinking here is based on remarks my father made in late 70's. Now I should stop for a moment, and stipulate that my father self-identifies as a Republican, albeit of the once canonical educated establishment financial conservative social liberal sort, rather than the current know-nothing rabble rousing budget arsonist xenophobe variety, but a Republican never the less. He told me how, when he was a kid, that there were more or less constant efforts to raise money in the depression-era Protestant churches to buy food and send missionaries to people starving in China. His point: whatever you might think of the Maoists, they seemed to have tremendously lowered the rate of starvation in China. It's hard to argue that that's not an improvement. And I'd argue that China's well-documented contemporary problems with population size (and rather extreme efforts to control it) are more evidence that they've had marked success at not starving.
Please keep in mind that I'm not the least bit interested in establishing a "communism is good" argument. But I am trying to nibble at the question of whether or not it might represent a possible stage in the economic development of certain nations, and indeed constitute a kind of incremental "progress" when measured against prior politico-economic states.
Indeed, to push the Chinese example further, we know that China is now a (mostly) market driven economy, so that's a sizable step in the direction of the west, albeit without much by way of political reform. If that feels like progress (and to me it does) does that make subsequent political development seem more or less likely? And before answering, it would be good to contemplate Singapore, and come to some sort of grips with the question of whether there's any difference worth caring about between the two.
Let me note, btw, that S. Vietnam hasn't been a country for about 35 years. You're living in the past.
As for Romania, yeah, Ceausescu was a misery, but it's not as if the fascist regime that preceded the communist era was a paragon of social and economic justice either. Before that, you have a few decades of relatively benign (Christian) monarchy, and then centuries of Ottoman rule. You probably have to go back to the era when the Romans rewarded foriegn legions by giving them land in Romania (hence, its name) to find a time when it was much better.
I think your dad's style of Republican was similar to my own, and of course they still exist, but are likely to have moved into the Democratic camp as a reaction to the incursion of the evangelicals, to a degree, but not entirely. My dad thought OJ was innocent, but he was a Republican through and through. Governor Evans out in Washington was part of that group. But you are still violently dismissive of an entire group of evangelicals simply because they don't recognize science as their all-consuming passion, but have different criteria. Not very tolerant.
Also, S. Vietnam was the term you used, so I used it. Check it for yourself.
The thing about establishing some sense of the capabilities of a population under various regimes you have to ask yourself which capabilities do you most admire and value? If freedom of speech and publishing is your central value, then naturally communist governments will start and end at zero. This is not and will never be what communist regimes are good at providing. That's something that classical liberalism is good at providing.
Now, if you are taking caloric intake as your primary value, then communists have indeed been somewhat better at that (not better than classical liberals, but better on that specific vector than they have been at providing for freedom of speech). Caloric intake in Cuba probably supercedes that of the Haitians, for instance.
The North Koreans on the other hand have had serious famines in the last ten years in which millions have died.
The Khmer Rouge provided for neither freedom of speech and writing nor did they provide much in the way of caloric intake.
Romania under Ceausescu was miserable for freedom of speech, and not good (compared to France) for caloric intake. It's doing a lot better in both departments since the fall of communism, as are all the East Bloc countries.
If you compare N. and S. Korea, obviously the latter is better on almost every possible score you could ever possibly imagine.
E. and W. Germany would provide similar problems for your viewpoint.
I realize you are not trying to apologize for communism, and yet you are.
Compare Taiwan with Red China.
Where you have the same people, and a similar country, and one goes communist, and one goes toward classical liberal principles, the section that goes classical liberal is invariably a better place to be at a scale of about 100 to 1 in every area of capability you'd care to name.
Kirby, I think it might be useful for stu et al to peruse the country-by-country historical description and analysis of communist rule in The Black Book of Communism (Le Livre Noir du Communisme, 1997--I read the original French edition before an English translation was published by Harvard U P) of Stephane Courtois (ed).
Each section of the book is written by an academic specialist and it has the cachet of having been issued by the most prestigious social science research institute in France. It is a gruesome study of communist repressions that include "genocides, extrajudicial executions, deportations, and [take note] artificial famines."
Of the estimated tenth of a billion deaths attributed to this hideous totalitarian system, 65 million were in China. Any attempt to gloss over what this system has wreaked (such as stu's opining about it perhaps being a "stage" that eventually yielded some good) is naively blindered and is an insult to its manifold victims.
JADL, it's probably of no use to ask leftists to read anti-leftists texts, because they won't do it. I haven't read The Black Book of Communism, either, but am more likely to get around to it every time you mention it. Is it just statistical, or is it also philosophical?
One of Hayek's great insights in The Road to Serfdom is that on a structural basis socialism is the same thing as Nazism. Both systems foreclose opposition, and force a thinking template on the masses. Recalcitrants and dissidents are routinely murdered.
If perhaps the only agreed-upon evil (between left and right) is the Nazis, then perhaps we have to go back to that site in order to establish common ground.
I suppose one could argue (per Stu) that Nazism lifted the fortunes of the German people for some time. After liquidating the Jewish elite, there was for a time more to go around. People ate better. Production improved.
Before the system began to be rolled up on the eastern front by Stalin's tank armies, and on the west by the Allied bombardments and invasion, the Germans were experiencing a better caloric intake than they had had in decades.
If something is wrong with Nazism, then the same thing is wrong with socialism, generally: it posits one idea that everyone must unilaterally accept. It posits nationalization of industry. Socialists do this on the basis of class, Nazis on the basis of race.
But some socialists have done so also on the basis of race: the Khmer Rouge, for instance, did so on the basis of race. The Chinese have a racial superiority thing going on even at the highest levels in Beijing. They claim they own all the lands that Chinese type people have been on, which includes Tibet.
In Zimbabwe you have a black Nazi named Patrick Mugabe who has taken over the entire country in the name of the blacks, and yet has instituted a quasi-totalitarian government. Whites have been dispossessed. You don't hear much hue and cry in the media over this because they think Nazism must be white to be racist. Black Nazism is acceptable. Yellow Nazism is acceptable.
Obama's dad was basically a black Nazi along the lines of Mugabe. In Dreams from my Father you get a clear sense that the son is following in the footsteps of the father.
Is Obama a racial socialist? In Crowleygate it seemed certain. Then, when he put Sotomayor (who is a Hispanic Nazi) on the SCOTUS, it seemed certain.
I'm not 100% certain now.
Most of academia is run by Nazis (Limbaugh was perhaps first to point out the superiority based on gender in his term, feminazis, because he saw that many feminists were national socialists and believed in their own superiority).
This structure is seemingly hardwired into many citizens.
We need to instead stand for a robust multiplicity of ideas and a true democracy, beginning in our universities. St. Paul argued that anyone and everyone could be Christian, including the uncircumcized. This is the beginning of a different kind of society, one that the totalitarians are trying hard to eclipse.
Kirby, the Black Book of Communism (BBC) is also a big book (over 900 pages as I remember it), and it contains very specific historical, ideological, and statistical accounts by area specialists.
It was reviewed favourably in a number of conservative and liberal journals alike (from the National Review to the NYT Review of Books to the TLS, etc.). The late Russian specialist Martin Malia of Cal-Berkeley wrote the introduction to the English translation and made a number of comparisons between the Communist and Nazi totalitarian systems, which the Romanian-born political scientist Vladimir Tismaneanu (U of Maryland and apparently an important authority on Communist Romania) also judges comparable. Sure, the BBC has its critics (e.g., among several who think its death estimates too low, others, too high) like the linguist and leftist political crank Noam Chomsky, a former denier of the Cambodian genocide (perhaps that's why he found it easy and tasteful to write a favourable intro for a French Holocaust-denier's book). But it's a scholarly, factual, and reasonable cumulative study of communism in action throughout the world, from the USSR to China to Cuba to Romania to N Korea to other areas.
I corresponded with Tismaneanu briefly while writing the Codrescu book (they're friends). I'm not surprised that Chomsky would not understand the holocaust. He doesn't get very much right, blinkered as he is by his ideological commitments.
I haven't heard of Martin Malia. It's a good thing that the link between socialism and national socialism is understood by at least some scholars aside from Hayek. The link is obvious to me.
While both left and right agree on one patent evil: the Nazis, they do not agree on what the Nazis were. Fundamentally, they were socialists, the right says.
The left says no they were Christians, and they were backed by Christians. They note the link with Lutherans and Germany, and the link between the fascists in Italy and the Pope.
and then they misquote and selectively misread the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, which has some passages (few) that indict Luther and Lutherans as a big part of Hitler's thought.
Later in the Rise and Fall Shirer is at pains to point out that Hitler was a pagan vegetarian who was only using Luther and Christian thought as a cover story for his darker viewpoint which would eventually eclipse all of Christianity toward a new pagan synthesis founded in Romantic German race myth.
The background is very similar to what the Chinese are up to, and what Mugabe is up to, and what BO's dad was up to in Kenya.
The American left says no to the Nazis but yes to "multicultural" Nazism in the name of "diversity," because this SEEMS to be an acceptance of diversity on their part (even though locally speaking the Khmer Rouge meant that anyone who couldn't trace their racial past to the Khmer would be destroyed, which is identical to what Hitler was doing in Germany).
"Diversity" as everyone knows is a term badly in need of a check-up.
It's like renaming the gas chambers the "halls of justice."
From a certain Nazi viewpoint, it was.
and from a certain viewpoint, Mugabe does represent diversity.
Where I think something new is going on is Obama is now talking in terms of the Bush doctrine. He also is talking in terms of universal human rights.
I think Obama is starting to function mentally. I'm not sure. It may be he is just playing me (us). He's done it before. But I think he is beginning to think in terms of universal human rights out of Locke and Smith.
I hope so.
Kirby, a very short but useful summary by the classicist Jeremiah Reedy (Macalester College) of some the points made in great detail in the BBC is here:
http://www.macalester.edu/~reedy/BlackBookRedBlood.html
I agree with your characterisation of the right-left split on interpreting the several totalitarian forms of socialism. Properly speaking, "genocide" refers to a policy or movement to extirpate a class as much as a race or ethnic group. We remember that Lenin and Stalin exercised both forms of genocide, the former kind in the mass persecutions and deportations of various large ethnic groups.
A partial list of crimes against humanity in the USSR (1918-44), from Wiki:
the executions of tens of thousands of hostages and prisoners, and the murder of hundreds of thousands of rebellious workers and peasants from 1918 to 1922.
the Russian famine of 1921, which caused the death of 5 million people.
the extermination and deportation of the Don Cossacks in 1920.
the murder of tens of thousands in concentration camps in the period between 1918 and 1930.
the Great Purge which killed almost 690,000 people.
the deportation of 2 million so-called "kulaks" from 1930 to 1932.
the deaths of 4 million Ukrainians (Holodomor) and 2 million others during the famine of 1932 and
1933.
the deportations of Poles, Ukrainians, Moldavians and people from the Baltic Republics from 1939to 1941 and from 1944 to 1945.
the deportation of the Volga Germans in 1941.
the deportation of the Crimean Tatars in 1943.
the deportation of the Chechens in 1944.
the deportation of the Ingush in 1944.
Such mass deportations were designed to have very high mortality rates during and after.
I should mention my own family's decimation in the Bolshevik-engineered famines in the Ukraine in the early 1930s. Like Nabokov's quarrel with the Bolsheviks, it's personal too.
Yes, President Obama is using some universal human rights rhetoric, but I'm sceptical about his foreign policy actions (or in the case of Iran et al, inactions), and especially in relation to his recent deeply misguided remarks on Israel. And if President Bush had intervened in Libya as Obama has, the Ds would be screaming about his violation of the War Powers Act of 1973.
Kirby,
Also, S. Vietnam was the term you used, so I used it. Check it for yourself.
I did, but in the context of succession. It could be argued that a democratically elected representative government with a free market economy was overthrown in S. Vietnam, and replaced by the totalitarian centrally planned unified Vietnamese government. But I'm not sure that either classification is entirely right. The SRV is certainly totalitarian, but I'm not so sure about the centrally planned part. It is, I believe, mostly agrarian, and central planning doesn't work so well there.
The thing about establishing some sense of the capabilities of a population under various regimes you have to ask yourself which capabilities do you most admire and value? If freedom of speech and publishing is your central value, then naturally communist governments will start and end at zero.
Oh, I think there's something to Maslow's hierarchy. Freedom of speech isn't your first priority if your kids are starving. That's why I'm actually a bit (just a bit) hopeful about China. People were starving, and so they got for themselves a government under which they're no longer starving. Now that they're not starving, it's going to become increasingly noticeable that they don't have freedom of speech. Maybe one of these days they'll get for themselves a government that permits that. After all, one of the things that Jefferson and his buddies got right is that governments ultimately depend on the consent of the governed.
The North Koreans on the other hand have had serious famines in the last ten years in which millions have died.
No question. And before that, they were occupied by the Japanese, who also starved them, and if that wasn't enough, robbed, raped, and occasionally used them for bayonet practice.
The Khmer Rouge provided for neither freedom of speech and writing nor did they provide much in the way of caloric intake.
I'm not sure how to classify the Khmer Rouge. Psychopathic, maybe. Parasites too stupid to understand that killing your host is a bad idea. For the most part, the bad governments we're talking about have been good enough to understand that killing your population was going to be a bad idea in the long run.
Compare Taiwan with Red China.
OK. Taiwan was economically successful before mainland China was. Let's take a look at a few critical stats (gleaned from the CIA world factbook). Life expectancy at birth: Taiwan -- 78.32 years; PRC -- 74.68 years. So Taiwan's better, but it's not night and day. There's a big difference in GDP/capita: $35.8K in Taiwan vs. $7.4K in the PRC. But the rate of change of GDP/capita is 9.25%/year for the PRC vs. 4.00%/year for Taiwan, so China is on track to catch up in 32 years.
It's not really clear that the PRC is on a different development curve than Taiwan, so much that Taiwan's greater assets initial assets per capita (in both education and money) amounted to a 30 year head start on that curve.
From a governmental point of view, Taiwan is a "multiparty democracy." But... with the caveat that the KMT (Kuomintang) engaged in one-party rule until the 1980's, and it is still the dominant party.
JADL,
I'm not questioning the existence of atrocities under communist rule, but rather wondering out loud whether these systems were better or worse than the systems in place in the same country beforehand. In particular, I started from China as an example of a situation where things got better objectively by at least one important measure (not starving). You can raise 45 million until your blue in the face. I'll grant that's bad, but that's not the damn question, and you know it. The question is whether it was better or worse than what went before. There's good reason to believe "better."
Asking this is in no way an apology for the communist systems, so much as an attempt to understand human political development in the context of modern nation states. We don't all take the same path -- that's a given. But are we ultimately headed to the same place? I think that's an important enough question to be worth a bit of thought, and an answer of "better" is evidence, albeit weak evidence, that the answer might be "yes."
Honestly, I expect you to pay attention. But you want to use it as an opportunity to flog your own hobby horse. Be my guest, but understand that you're not participating.
As for the "Black Book," it has precisely zero utility in answering the question I asked, unless paired with a hypothetical "Black Book of pre-Communist States." Or, for that matter, with a hypothetical "Black Book of Capitalism," written to the same critical standards.
stu, I don't think prejudging the BBC as you have is warranted, for there is some attention to pre-communist rule in the countries later afflicted. In Russia's case, Tsarist rule was on a path to slow but significant reforms before the WWI debacle ensued. There was also the social democratic Kerensky alternative before the Bolshevik coup that put monsters like Lenin and Stalin in charge (hence the policies of destroying the food-producing peasantry through collectivisation and mass starvation). Was that "better"?
In China there again was again the preferable Nationalist alternative that doubtless would have avoided the mass starvations in China and the utterly ruthless and brutal communist policies of rural collectivisation and failed industrialisation. Again, "better"?
Your view reminds me of the blithely Pollyannish one expressed by a NYT writer at the fall of the Soviet empire of over 70 horrific years--a "gee, thanks for trying!"
The Slavist scholar Gary Saul Morson (Northwestern U) has set out well the sinister role of the proto-communist "intelligentsia" of the 19th-20th c in setting the stage for the Bolshevik takeover. A reviewer of the Companion to Russian History has Morson's essay so:
"Morson also gives full attention to the intelligentsia’s critics, notably Tolstoy, Dostoevskii, Chekhov and the authors of the Vekhi (Signposts) essay collection of 1909, who argued that the intelligentsia were as narrow-minded, philistine and intolerant as the regime which oppressed them, and that if they ever came to power they would install a reverse autocracy which might be even more destructive. Morson goes so far as to assert that this counter-intelligentsia tradition constitutes ‘Russia’s greatest contribution to world thought.'"
Elsewhere Morson has argued that the record of execution and internal exile practised by various Tsarist rulers in the entire 19th c. pale in comparison with just one year of Bolshevik rule. You can fancy that as "better" if you wish. . . .
Not sure what your hypothetical "Black Book of Capitalism" might contain in the way of mass atrocities caused by Hayekian neo-liberal governments that would bear the slightest comparison with the devastation and death rolls under communist rule. I suppose you'd have to resort to trying to tie "capitalism" to the military-industrial complexes in Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and Fascist Italy, but these corporatist entities were in many respects anti-capitalist in theory and practise.
I think Stu is saying that mass murder of the upper classes (which includes the Kulaks) is ok, so long as the survivors are eating better. After murdering the upper classes, Cain will be able to become Abel. I think it's a weird argument, from a kind of meta-perspective. You can see similar arguments that the Black Plague was good for Europe because the survivors had better wages. Communism = Black Plague, both good, because they lead to better living conditions for the survivors.
I don't buy Maslow's hierarchy, but then I've never been terribly hungry.
I don't think Jesus would buy Maslow's hierarchy (he's a vicious secularist/materialist).
I think Jesus would rather die on the cross, even though food and drink weren't much of a problem for Him. One of the worst aspects of communist tyrannies is how they ruthlessly suppressed religious life: still do in China, in N. Korea, in Nazi Germany, everywhere they appear. They are very much like the horrible old Roman society that Christianity fought so hard to replace with the notion of basic human rights for individuals.
It's strange to me that Stu keeps bringing the criteria of judgement back to economics, as if that's really the entire ballgame. One of his colleagues at Chicago, Martha Nussbaum, has been instrumental in turning us toward a notion of larger capabilities.
Having tons of money didn't help Scrooge.
It's strange to me that having a clean conscience is not something the left cares about too much.
JADL,
Referring to the "Black Book of Communism" as the BBC is excessively confusing, given that the BBC has a preferred interpretation already.
Color me extremely skeptical that the Black Book pursued the issue of pre-communist atrocities with anything like vigor that it pursued those of the communists. It had an axe to grind, as do you. Saying that "Tsarist rule was on a path to slow but significant reforms" is weak. Yeah, Nicolas II was relatively enlightened by the standards of his immediate predecessors. But by most accounts Emperor Frederick III of Germany was considerably more enlightened than his father or son. The point is that you're mistaking noise for signal, and a source with a clear agenda with a neutral source.
Arguing for "preferable alternatives" is also weak. We know the atrocities of the actual victors. We do not know what the losers would have done had they prevailed. What we do know is what the Czars did, and we can make reasonable judgments about how standards of living improved. A not inconsequential point here is that during WWI, the Germans kicked the Russia's asses. During WWII, the reverse, eventually, and at terrible human cost, obtained. Russia had a very long way to come between Tannenberg and Barbarossa. I don't believe you want to argue that any logical extrapolation of the Czarist regime, or indeed any of the other groups you've mentioned, would have endured and overcome Guderian's panzers. So yeah. I'm no apologist for Stalin. But better. Much, much better. Not good, but that's not the figure of merit in this debate.
As for China, if the Nationalists really were better, then why did the population support the Communists? According to US diplomat Edwin Moise, "The CPC seemed less corrupt, more unified, and more vigorous in its resistance to Japan than the KMT. United States fliers shot down over North China...confirmed to their superiors that the CPC was both strong and popular over a broad area." (c.f., Wiki, "Mao Zedong"). Again, it was pretty well understood at the time that the KMT was corrupt as all hell. I assume you've read Chennault and Stillwell. This should not be a surprise.
Not sure what your hypothetical "Black Book of Capitalism" might contain in the way of mass atrocities caused by Hayekian neo-liberal governments that would bear the slightest comparison with the devastation and death rolls under communist rule
I'm sure, that if written to the same standards, all 600K of the KIA in the US Civil war would be counted. Maybe deaths of slaves? Probably. How about 11K in Bhopal? Maybe it would have included Hiroshima and Nagasaki. No, I'm sure it would have. Dresden and Tokyo, too. And rightly so -- murdering civilians in the name of prosecuting war should be condemned. There's always Bacque's argument that the US killed about 800K German POWs between '45 and '48. The partition of India is good for a million. 800K in Rwanda. Suharto's anti-communist purge was good for a million. How about all of WWI? That's 16 million, and not a communist or fascist state to blame. A monarchy or two, sure, but you're good with them.
Kirby,
I think Stu is saying that mass murder of the upper classes (which includes the Kulaks) is ok, so long as the survivors are eating better.
I do not, and I'm offended that you would suggest that I do.
It's strange to me that Stu keeps bringing the criteria of judgement back to economics, as if that's really the entire ballgame.
No, it's not the entire ballgame, but it's not irrelevant either. As I've said, I'm no fan of the communist regimes, but I am arguing that by and large, communist regimes emerged out of societies that were highly dysfunctional already, whereas the US emerged out of a reasonably functional system. I am arguing that we'll do better if we understand history in terms of process, rather than in terms of jingoist ideology.
This is getting unworkably complex again in terms of the needed data. For Vietnam we'd need to have several parallel universes. In one, the French never arrived. In another, the French arrived, but there was a split between north and south in which the south had a fair and free electoral system, with good honest candidates, while the north had a vicious stupid communist thugocracy that killed all dissidents, and then destroyed the fair and free S. vietnamese government and then murdered all dissidents but suddenly decided to allow for freedom of thought and publishing and the country became more like ours, but wait, that would be jingoistic to say anything nice about our country or to use western societies as a litmus test for the scuzz of the third world and their beknighted ideas of how to behave.
Now JADL is offended that Stu doesn't take on board the suffering of his Ukrainian ancestors. Curtis is so offended by JADL that he's left the board permanently. Stu is offended that I implied he said that destruction of the rich in crummy countries like China helped the poor.
If Marxism tells us anything it's to kill the entrepreneurial class and to replace them with functionaries of your own group.
We're a touchy group!
I still say that only Protestant countries with strong work ethic and fairness deserve to prosper. All others are lucky at best if they prosper (Japan).
JADL says that Ireland prospered, but really they didn't. They played tricks with their economy to game the European system. They don't really make anything of their own.
All of our points are too big to prove. however, nothing can be proved. I can't even prove that red is red if someone else thinks it's blue.
I do more or less buy JADL's interpretations of events, and Dim Lamp's, and JEPs, and a few others here. Stu seems crazy, as does Brett, and Curtis was beyond the pale. Still, I like to hear the other viewpoints. I just generally don't understand them. They seem loopy beyond belief.
But then Romney strikes me as an aberrant liberal.
Kirby,
This is getting unworkably complex again in terms of the needed data.
Actually, the point to my original question was that we don't need those hypotheticals. I'm not claiming, despite the efforts of you and JADL to claim that I am, that the communists were good. Just that they typically succeeded regimes that by various important measures were worse. The precondition for North Vietnam, for example, consisted of Japanese occupation, even extending into the post-war era.
In the meantime, a reply of mine to JADL seems to have gone missing. Too bad. I'll summarize quickly. The Czars got their asses kicked by the Germans in WWI. I see no reason to believe that they, or any of the other regimes he enumerates, would have done any better against Guderian's panzers. Stalin did, and that's certain one for him.
Likewise, the nationalists in China were not paragons of democracy. Heck the nationalists in Taiwan were a one-party system for almost 40 years. Raising them to the level of saints won't do. I'm reasonably confident that JADL's read Chennault and Stillwell, so he knows whereof I speak.
catholic countries will last longer because we're used to decadence
once the USA goes through the despair associated with all the protestants finally coming to realise how utterly daft their ideas are they will either become more catholic or they will meld into amorphous humanism and be hardly distinguishable from a resaurant crew all with th same shirts
see
this is why i don't want to engage anyone in rhetorical boxing or even worldwide wrestling i like you guys too much i think we should all just put up our banter and be done with it
i used to think that canada was a great protestant country but lately i've been coming to understand the price catholics payed up there holy shit some of it makes custer look like an alright guy
i think people just need to take breaks from all this as rich and goofy and off the cuff as it all is everyone needs to attend to other stuff...i was away from computers for about 3 weeks there awhile ago other stuff going on i don't think anyone gets estranged from here it's just that they have other stuff to do
in an odd way craig gm palmer and brett are your most consistent voices
all the girls have dropped out
why is that
i mean the testosterone level over here is mild i haven't done any litmus tests yet but i don't see anyone doing snowgraphics or proclaiming phallic superiority
so i dont know what it is with the girls i guess they just have other things to do hard for any of us to believe it given the rich conceptual linguistic and ideological exchanges that do take place
boredom could not be better served in the 21st century
i for one can't keep up with you guys when you really get goin
i still think kirby is using all of this in a book he'll publish and we'll never see any of the royalties - he'll invent a class call it lutheran surrealism and the gagging of the west
and try to offer courses in advanced irrelevance but will end up as an igame somewhere in a broken down cyber port
sheesh
i like the serious look on jesus' face in the painting
he sort of looks like netanyahu
i'm down to one blog post a month
that's enough for me
that's all the faster i can think anymore
i'd like to see a whole new class of youngsters come in and kick some ludic posterior over here
you'd think the opportunity to write really outrageous things would be enough to attract people but what do i know
i am always mystified by the prospect of being human
tormented with the inescapeable poignancy of it all
jh
Stu, I looked in spam. Everything I've gotten seems to have gone through.
We do get interventions from Frankie now and then, but probably even she has better things to do than jaw with us.
Men like to jaw, perhaps.
Stu claims that all commie countries replaced something even worse. I don't think the Khmer Rouge would qualify as an advance on any situation, and I don't see how Stalinism would qualify either. Mao's Cultural Revolution seems like a complete breakdown to me.
The current annual income of a Vietnamese family is 325 dollars. The main thought of most Vietnamese has been how to get out. N. Korea, likewise.
Communism is like kissing a beautiful girl who says you're going to have everything you want baby, and you end up dying of some weird disease in some weird hotel down the street having been dispossessed of everything by a witch.
Communism is a kind of sorcery. It's a magic broom. Dumb people sign on, and you're wisked off to the land of permanent poverty.
Competition is a net good: sports represent capitalism. The only problem is you have to wear the funny suits. Imagine if you were told you could make a million a year but you'd have to wear a shiny suit with white socks and a headband. Would you do it? Put in those terms I doubt if you would.
Capitalism asks us to wear shiny suits and pass the ball.
I can understand the hippies wanting to drop out and wear bleached t-shirts, but that became a uniform too and there was still the problem of feeding your face, and then you had to live in a yurt through the winter.
So you were back to communism having been whisked there by the broom guitars of magic men like Carlos Santana. Gotta black magic woman.
Stay out of that stuff.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs is another magic broom.
Life is dreary with three minutes a day that are magical tops.
Let's accept that, fellas.
stu, your prejudging a scholarly work written by area specialists you apparently haven't read as a propaganda piece adds nothing to your argument and rather damages your credibility on points for which you might claim to have evidence.
Your praise for the Stalinist regime (based on its ability to survive the Nazi attack and emerge victorious) seems a dubious form of crude Hegelianism. By a similar application of this twisted logic we might contend the Nazi regime was "better" than the corrupt Weimar Republic, which in turn was "better" than the monarchy--and so on in this regression back to ancient times, for the Nazi regime provided for a while at least a rapid rise in most Germans' standard of living. But then, what about the oppressions, persecutions, devastation and loss of life caused by the war, the Holocaust, etc.? Well, perhaps that's OK, given the reconstruction of the German economy and the standard of living Germans enjoy today? And OK for the surviving Jews who at last forged a Jewish state in Israel? And OK for Maoist China, because a corrupt government seems always worse by your reckoning than any mass-murdering one, given that Maoist China has the distinction of taking off more lives than any in history?
And while you claim that the most important measure of communist success was providing its captive peoples with enough food, you ignore the mass starvations engendered by those regimes. They didn't at all improve the standards of living, but even if they had, that wouldn't make them worthy of support in any way. As Kirby pointed out, the mass deaths in Europe due to the Black Plague raised the standards of living for those who survived, but, like communism, I see no reason to compose an ode of thanks to it.
Your "Black Book of Capitalism" exercise is simply absurd. To call the American Civil War or the Hindu-Muslim mass conflict over the partition of India or the tribal genocide in Rwanda, e.g., a war of capitalist ideology is not just weak--it's daft. By the same sort of substitute for reasoning we might just add up the toll of deaths caused by any object or substance produced in a capitalist economy and count those deaths as "capitalist atrocities."
I know it's difficult for some on the anti-anti communist left to acknowledge the manifold evils of this system Malia has characterised as productive of history's greatest political carnage and that it will be, as he has it, "a very Long March indeed before communism is accorded its fair share of absolute evil."
Hayek argues that there is no difference between Russian communism and Nazism. Might it be possible that the Soviet people under Hitler would have been better off with the Nazis? What did the Nazis plan to do with Russia?
Stalin slaughtered millions and millions.
Perhaps he planned to turn them into slave laborers.
Would it have been different?
Certainly Nazis in N. Korea would be more or less the same thing.
In Cambodia?
Not sure there is any real difference.
Nazis in Germany were hell-bent on eliminating Jews, but in Cambodia they were hell-bent on eliminating Chinese and Vietnamese and anyone who could read.
It's ridiculous to think about: but did Nazis have a higher cultural level than the communists?
Nazis did have at least one talented writer: Ernst Junger.
I'm not aware of any talented writer that has come out of N. Korea, or out of Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.
Has Red China got a writer?
The Soviet Union had Solzhenitsyn.
Did someone say that Chiang Kai-Chek was a saint? I don't think anybody said that he and his group were saints. Maybe I missed it. They were mean as heck, but the communists are always already worse. They are never an improvement on anything because they are the lowest of the low. I do grant Stu a point with the Russian tank divisions against the Nazis. They did at least win. At the cost of many millions, but they might have been millions lost to the Nazis any way.
Interestingly little Finland beat both the Soviets during the Winter War, and then later pushed the Nazis out of northern Finland. They basically defeated both of these larger and supposedly more powerful countries.
I'd like to think that GOD had something to do with it. Remember in NUMBERS when superior numbers do NOT carry the day in battles? It's because God was on the Jews' side.
That's why they are still able to hold out against the billion Muslims around them, too. 7 million Jews are a match for any number of Muslims, presumably even an infinite number.
In the same way, 3 million Lutheran Finns were more than a match for seemingly infinite Stalinists and Nazis.
Neat book mentioned at church this morning. Lauren Hillenbrand's Unbroken, about a fella named Louie Zamperini who raced in the 36 Olympics and then was shot down as a nose gunner in a WWII B-52 and ended up in a Japanese prisoner of war camp. They broke his legs over and over when they found oiut he was a runner. It's good that we changed Japan after the war. All the ocuntries that ended up under our wing are better off now. All those that fell into the evil empire's sway went far worse.
In Exodus it's written that God strikes down the first-born of every Egyptian family because of the brutal conditions to which they subjected the Jewish people. He also plagues them with frogs, lice, and other problems. Did they deserve it? If a population is brutal and sick, do they deserve a mass extermination? In Exodus, it was clear that God thought that they did. Hitler turned this around and thought that he himself was God, and had to exterminate the Jewish people.
I've been incredibly impressed by the violence in the Pentateuch -- at one point thousands of Jews are slain by family members in Leviticus because they didn't do something correctly.
The idea seems to be that the Law comes before everything.
If in animals the basic sense is that there is a biological reality for them, that they must act according to a given biological imperative, then for humans it seems that they must act according to the Law.
Not sure how to characterize communist destruction of entire peoples such as the destruction of the Kulaks on Stalin's orders. The actual document appears to be fairly anodyne. The Kulaks have maintained private property. The ferocity of their extermination was something else.
When the Japanese raped Nanking, also, something else!
It's hard to get the right sense of proportionality in terms of the distribution of justice.
I guess where I find Stu's argument impossible to contend with is that he only cares about effectiveness of food delivery.
What about murder and theft and other evil stuff?
Stu doesn't recognize evil as a category.
The axis of evil was a good definition.
We, on the other hand, form an axis of good.
Kirby,
I'm in the final days of working on a major proposal. I'd like to argue, but there's just not time. But a quick remark:
Stu doesn't recognize evil as a category.
Bull. I recognize that when people try to force works and/or positions down my throat, without trying in good faith to understand my position, that evil exists.
Post a Comment