
I went to see this film last night and it struck me that Harry Potter vs. Voldemort was a mythical replay of the Battle for Britain in World War II. Voldemort was a Nazi, and Harry Potter and his friends were Churchill & Co.
Voldemort believes he is superior because he is a Nazi.
And he thinks he has the right to crush and kill everyone who will not recognize that fact.
Harry Potter is always a touch elitist (he's a powerful magician by birth) but he throws away power in order to share in the ordinary life of raising children, the most beautiful life he can imagine.
Abe Lincoln wrote in the Gettysburg Address that America is "dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."
This means all men worldwide.
Jefferson wrote in the Declaration that all men "are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."
This is now enshrined as a leading concept worldwide. Therefore, the horror of Voldemort who has decided that power alone makes him greater than others is understood by the entire audience worldwide, so that as we watch the film, the moral language is universal.
This language probably ultimately derives from St. Paul's notion that even non-Jews can understand and be accepted by God.
What happens to excellence in this equality-driven climate? We do still have sports. Basketball, football, soccer, baseball: these are all driven by excellence. American Idol and America's Next Top Model are driven by excellence. We watch these, too, and sense their legitimacy from within the Greek model of excellence, even though there's something a tad snotty about it.
How do we square the drive for excellence with the drive for equality? Some claim that we can do it through "equality of opportunity not equality of outcome." And yet we still have redistributionists among us who want communism to prevail. Underneath the neo-cortex is a powerful reptilian brain that is territorial and unthinkingly triumphalist.
The business climate for now is still built on the reptilian brain but it is papered over with service to others. Microsoft is a meritocracy, but has also been sued for attempts at monopolies.
We even still have Nazis: those who believe the white race is superior. These want a monopoly on power. In addition we have the leftist Nazis. Justice Sonia Sotomayor believes that she is superior to white men because she is Latina. At least some homosexuals believe that they are superior to the other gender. Many believe they are superior because they are not having children like the "breeders," which reduces others to the status of cattle.
In academia, we still have the grading system, and students vie for grades. Some profs used to openly favor white males, and now many Sonia Sotomayor types secretly favor their own kind, seeing themselves as superior, much as communists under Stalin and others saw themselves as morally superior, and thus entitled to being "more equal" in the phrase of Orwell's, giving them the right to cleanse the earth of the bourgeoisie.
Multiculturalism is the belief that all cultures are equal, but just underneath the surface almost all cultures feel superior to others. The Japanese felt they were the world's best. The Chinese feel this. Denominations feel superior to other denominations. Businesses feel superior to other businesses. Perhaps there is no role for this in the Bible, and perhaps it's a sin. Perhaps it's Satanic to think like this.
In the Harry Potter series, Voldemort is a moral idiot, who believes he is superior, which paradoxically allows us to feel morally superior. He's a mental dumbkopf, like Hitler, and we're not.
The Taliban in Afghanistan openly lord their superiority over women, as do the imams of Iran. In the OT one sees this tendency a lot. The Jews were morally superior to the Canaanites so had the right to genocide. Many communists feel this way with regard to the rich. Some feminists feel this way with regard to men. Some black rights folks feel this way with regard to white folks. Some gays feel this way with regard to "straights."
The equality and the greater than symbol constantly vie with one another. Nietzsche's ubermensch vies with the rights of the citizen announced by Lockean liberalism.
As groups line up and gear up for the next election, questions of equality and superiority are everywhere. It's all that we're really talking about. The side that can make its points universally valid in this debate will get the legitimacy that leads to the most votes.
In the last election Obama came out of nowhere. Now he has a track record of failure, and poor judgment. His one great success (killing OBL) is significant. But he is also an excellent speaker and is very goodlooking. We need someone equally goodlooking and equally good at getting out the arguments for competitive excellence or else America is going to collapse even further into communist redistribution as the leftists and their myriad scrums seize assets and close down centers of excellence. The left believes it is Harry Potter and the right are Voldemort and his minions. Their point is Marxist, and has been sent through by every young person who's been to college. Marxists are everywhere in academia. The reverse is true, too, that for those who still attend church, there is the notion that each person has a talent, and must use it to help others. We also still have the Greek notions of excellence. Can they be legitimated and sustained against the Marxist onslaught that threatens to turn America into a revolutionary Kampuchea?
75 comments:
Obama didn't come of out nowhere. He gave a speech at the 2004 DNC and it was then clear that he was going to be the next president unless the GOP pulled off a trick they were clearly unable to pull off.
Now, fast forward seven years and much of the shine has turned to tarnish--but only for about 20% of the population who is interested in being swayed. We'll see how the economy is doing in about 17 months.
I forgot about that speech. 2004, summer. It was (admittedly) a rocket in an otherwise totally dull convention.
Obama is a brilliant actor who can play amazing roles.
The funny thing is that it's not really him playing those parts. It's Bill Ayers.
Kirby,
I'm not at all sure I buy the Voldemort == Hitler concept. Sure, I can stitch some minor analogies together, but they don't seem to touch the core of the story. Hitler had no horcruxes. It was not necessary for Churchill to die in order that Voldemort be destroyed.
Anyway, Hitler was mostly defeated by the Soviets, who in turn were the nation most injured by him, and there's no obvious analogy to Stalin in the Potter series.
And how do you account for the themes of sacrifice (most visible in Dumbledore and Potter himself, but a recurring theme), loyalty, and love?
Indeed, although I generally liked the Potter series, I found the moral that being loved (rather than doing the loving oneself) is what differentiates the evil from the good to be remarkably naive, and even a bit condescending.
I'll agree that some of its themes parallel Nazism -- the whole racial-purity thing smacks strongly of Nazism. But I think that Potter drew from other analogies too, e.g., the intertwining of love and sacrifice (and even resurrection) seems to owe a lot to the Jesus story. In this light, one could see Ron and Hermione as metaphoric disciples. Or, you could draw a parallel between Potter's choice not to keep the Elder wand with George Washington's decision to reject the title of King.
But these, in some sense, are now common enough themes, and you could draw similar parallels from Avatar, just to name one example.
Aesop just has a larger special effects budget these days.
Voldemort = Bad Guy.
Hitler = Bad Guy.
Therefore, Voldemort = Hitler.
Stu, thanks for your divagations here. Washington I can see in the giving away of the elderwand. Good call.
Evil is elitism, but elitism speaks itself in many forms. It's ok to be a member of the sports elite (so long as you've earned it, and so long as you don't use it to cheat endlessly on your wife).
We have all kinds of written and unwritten rules with regard to equality and inequality, and untangling them all is probably impossible.
Deep in the knotty core of our mythical sensibility is of course Hitler. But there is also Nietzsche, the aristocratic background of England (they still have a royalty, and still have a lot of snootiness and a lot of class warfare going on), and then there's the weirdness of the Stalinists. I don't have a good sense of their labor history.
In American history, labor and mafia are all mixed together, both in reality and in mythscapes.
Voldemort seems to come out of the Nietzschean ubermensch notions but is perhaps also coming out of the Tolkein ring sequence in which the Ring (similar to the wand in this series) both is compelling in terms of the power it gives but seductive in terms of the evil that it offers.
German Romanticism gave us both Marx and Nietzsche. Are they equally bad? To my mind, no. Nietzsche is somewhat better because of his penetrating discussions of the pre-Socratics, and because of his more mind-bending notions of the Eternal Return. That is, as an intellectual exercise, Nietzsche is superior.
For soundness, the Anglo-American tradition is sounder. Locke, in particular. and then, of course, Smith.
Harry has to kill the elitist portion of himself in order for all evil to finally die.
This is perhaps like being reborn in Christ.
He is in an angelic train station briefly before returning to life.
Dumbledore is dressed somewhat like an angel (all in white).
There's something for the pagans in his outfit (long beard), and something for the Christians, which I suppose guarantees receipts.
Come one, come all: hear your story fed back to you.
Harry is all cleaned up and without glasses when he's in the heaven scenario.
He loses his trademark glasses.
Harry looked cute as a little boy as did Hermione and the other kid. Now they look like British people generally do.
Voldemort is at least physically fit, though he could use some dentistry.
Stu: you're a Christian and you believe the concept of love as the defining difference between good and evil is naive?
Really?
GM,
Stu: you're a Christian and you believe the concept of love as the defining difference between good and evil is naive?
Really?
Now I know that what you want me to say is that a living faith in Jesus Christ is the differentiator: those who have it are good, those who don't are evil. It is that easy for us after all -- if we commit ourselves to God, living with Jesus as our Lord, we're good and saved. But I don't think it is that easy for God. He does have a commitment to the Jews after all, which implies a more liberal definition. Indeed, I'm enough of a univeralist to believe that God has spoken to all peoples at all times, and that there are therefore necessarily other paths; while remaining enough of a particularist to believe that venue shopping for paths to God is a pretty stupid thing to do. There are false paths a plenty, I'll stay on the sure path that I'm on, thank you.
But I do see love as being a concommitant of a living faith, cf., 1 Cor 13, and even a proper reading of James. My point wasn't to equate love with faith, it was to distinguish being the passive recipient of love (which Rowling specifically lifts up) from being someone who loves others (as St. Paul lifts up).
there's also this thing with curtis wanting to manage the planet
because mankind can't quite manage himself but of course this is little more than a totalitarian stance it presumes that we can decide who gets to live and what chances we might call life this i cannot abide and JADL does well to challenge this at every turn and i would too it's just that i do not wish to hurt anyones' feelings if you know what i mean
this idea that you make it sort of secret and invisible if you do that well it's not as bad as if you drop bombs and torture people like in classical war you know the war we're all used to the big explosion wars no none of that anymore we do it quietly and cover it in an ethos of human necessity and good sense clever invisible murder given legal sanction what are we to think humans are negligible worthy of no greater honor at times than to be sucked into a vaccuum and tossed into an incineratior and forgotten as a ways and means of doing justice and righting the imbalance of existing...and every woman on the pill is on LSD in my book...they are all walking unabombers
we need to bring back casual smoking things were good then
believe me
the remedy is far worse than the original plight
and i wish he'd just come around and accept that american democracy is a failed experiment and only the catholic church has the answer
we're less and less inclined to offer our advice but neither are we inclined to accept the designs of humanism or any sort of atheistic or agnostic agenda
for these ways turn men and women into feces and little more
what is scandalous about the harry potter stuff is all the money
legends and tales never were money makers only the stories that everyone told had any merit and they didn't make money
but here one person and all sorts of parasites have made billions and it ain't right i'm just here to say it is a misappropriation of finances and no wonder the world is so phuqqed up there are too many people who make too much money doing stupid things that' don't help anyone except provide distraction and surrogate child care for their children because they're too damn lazy and parents are loathe to do it themselves
if the argument of luther was against the ostentations display of wealth in rome then the current end game of protestant atheistic agnostic postivism is a gazillion times worse for this allows individuals to hoard money and become snobbishly aristcratic without any credentials whatsoever
the arrogant wealth of rome was a testament to spreading it around
and the artist had to prove worthy everyone for ages on down the line has benefited from the art of rome even the most demented artists like modigliani he arrived at his understanding of beauty by looking at the simple honesty of religious art
and dante never made any money off of the divine comedie which none of the harry potter readers will ever understand so why bother
but this was a work that was supported but then handed down in beauty to successive generations and nobody can get wealthy off of this
so the deathly hallows are these pretensious and deviant destroyers of roman catholic cohesion and social dignity of the highest order know in the history of mankind ( i don't want to overstate the case here but at the very least the words sound true)
leave us alone miss rawlings or rollins or whatever it is go back to your humble little desk and jot poems for eterninty not for gluttonous present day wishes and widespread dementia
hollywood is a place of eternal sodomy
and nothing more
we've been had
it should be incumbent upon all the moneyed people of hollywood to balance the budget of california
they should literally give their money to the places in the network of social life there to schools and projects that help everyone they should all realize that their work is worthless and they've been paid too much but i suppose that would be like trying to convince two lesbians that what they really want is to have babies with me as the father
obama is still a smart guy
he looks like the office is aging him quick
lots of grey hair
yet the wisdom is apparent
this is only a temporary side job for him anyway
he is destined to become the eternal everlasting lifelong king of north america the immortal chieftain of yes we can the only voice of optimism in the land that only man with vision and street smarts
all hail the lightbrown emperor
and his brilliant wife
he will officiate at the marriage of africa and america
and the world will turn with simplicity and grace once again
we need more african women here
and more african music
schmarry schmotter
it's all a crock...
it can't hold a candle to a live passion play
next
jh
1) Harry clearly loves others because he was shown love (as recounted elsewhere in the old hymn "because He first loved me. . .").
2) God has no "commitment to the Jews." That doctrine is unsound in the extreme. In Galatians it is clearly stated that there is neither Jew nor Greek; slave nor free--God's "commitment" is to those who love.
GM,
Harry clearly loves others because he was shown love
I do not know whether or not being loved is necessary in order to love, but I suspect it is not. But whether or not it is necessary, it clearly isn't sufficient. There are murderers a plenty whose mothers love them. Some people will take the gift of love, and magnify it by returning it. Others will absorb it, leaving nothing.
God has no "commitment to the Jews." That doctrine is unsound in the extreme. In Galatians it is clearly stated that there is neither Jew nor Greek; slave nor free--God's "commitment" is to those who love.
I respectfully disagree.
You stand assembled today, all of you, before the LORD your God—the leaders of your tribes, your elders, and your officials, all the men of Israel, your children, your women, and the aliens who are in your camp, both those who cut your wood and those who draw your water— to enter into the covenant of the LORD your God, sworn by an oath, which the LORD your God is making with you today; in order that he may establish you today as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you and as he swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. (Deuteronomy 29:10–13 NRSV)
This is one of many. There is a covenant with the Jews. It is not the same as the covenant he has with us, but God's word is eternal. God's covenant with the Jews remains.
Get thee to a theatre and see Deathly Hallows, Part 2. Help the wheels of the economy turn. Help pay the freight for this flick.
Nope.
God made a new covenant. It replaced the old one.
Moreover, we are told that there is no longer such a distinction between Jews and Gentiles--so even if the covenant is eternal it is moot because Jews in the covenant sense no longer exist (c.f. Ephesians). We're all God's "chosen people" now.
GM,
I suspect we're at an impasse, but I'll push a bit further.
I consider your interpretation of Galations 3:28 and related passages to be faulty, for if read in context, this is a discussion of how Christians are to live and act in community. When we gather in Christian community, external signifiers have no meaning, we are united, we are one. In the context of this passage in Galatians, "Jew" and "Greek" speak to ethnicity and to religious heritage of individuals with the Christian community, and should not be confused with the larger community of non-Christian Jews, as you are doing.
And let's consider the question theologically. Do you consider God's promises to us as Christians to be permanent or transient? If you believe that God would have rejected promises that he made in perpetuity to the Jews, why do you believe that you won't be ultimately rejected?
It boils down to this: either you believe in God and his promises, or you don't. The position that you're taking is an explicit rejection of his promises to the Jews. This is not the side of the debate you want to be on.
this is where orthodox christian lituergy helps
one begins to see that the structure the narrative(s)
even the eucharistic prayers
are derived from jewish tradition
the fundamental prayer text has always been the book of psalms
the readings at mass for this time are the exodus stories as they are during lent
we are jews
we just have no hang-ups when it comes to land
i'm typing with my left hand only
injury manifest
we'd always like our jewish brothers and sisters to give jesus another serious consideration
he sure puts suffering anf redemption into a different light
chagall seems to have understood that
that's all folks
jh
jh,
Many thanks for your remarks.
this is where orthodox christian lituergy helps
one begins to see that the structure the narrative(s)
even the eucharistic prayers
are derived from jewish tradition
Amen to that. Years ago, I went with the wife and kids to
a friend's daughter's brit bat. This included a breaking of the
challah (a ceremonial braided loaf) and blessing of the wine by
my friend, the host. In hebrew, of course. Afterwards, my daughter
asked, were we just communed? In a sense, in a very real sense, yes.
The words of institution are table blessing.
we are jews
we just have no hang-ups when it comes to land
Well, we don't have their hang-ups when it comes to land :-).
i'm typing with my left hand only
injury manifest
May you find healing.
we'd always like our jewish brothers and sisters to give jesus another serious consideration
he sure puts suffering anf redemption into a different light
Indeed. While I believe that God's original covenant to the Jews remains valid, it's a hard bargain. I tend to believe that he over-estimated the moral capability of humanity, and the Christian convenant is a better fit to sinners like us.
So you think God is fallable.
Bummer JH. I feel your pain...
In a narcissistic segue, I went to the E.R. yesterday because of a nosebleed that wouldn't stop (9 days after turbinate-reduction surgery, I sneezed a scab off, and boy did it gush! Made me think of Kirby - the nosebleed's persistence showed some of that classic PWE, and the fact that I had to go to the ER because of a frikkin' nosebleed was pretty absurd, almost surreal. And the whole thing was a strange mixture of impressive and annoying...so now I'm going to start a crusade to put an end to nosebleeds. All this funding that goes to sexually transmitted diseases, and yet still there's no real cure for the modern nosebleed! Though I guess most of the adults affected do lots of cuhcaine...).
Also, this is to warn that I'll be on pain meds (woot woot!) for the next few days, so if my comments all of a sudden become lucid and insightful, you'll know why.
And I like Jews. They're neat. I think God thinks they're neat too. They're like players from the ABA making it into the NBA hall of fame.
Or cricket players making it into the baseball hall of fame - come on, I know the game's older and longer and more boring, but they still deserve a shout-out!
I didn't say I didn't like Jews as a population; I said that their original covenant has been superseded by Jesus' new covenant.
That's how law works, you know.
GM,
So you think God is fallable.
An interesting point. Not exactly, but if God has perfect foreknowledge, he chooses to act as if he does not. He builds relationships with fallible humanity, knowing us for who we are, and is still surprised when we fail.
It seems to me that creation is more like jazz than classical music, and that God both acts and reacts.
The ultimate victory is God's, but in the meantime, our lives do matter. The choices we make are important. We're not puppet's in a play of God's creation, and neither is he.
I thought it was two separate covenants, like two separate countries. The first covenant is made with Moses, the second is announced via St. Paul.
There is an overlap to a degree.
Jesus never denounces the old laws.
For instance, many liberals discuss the women taken in adultery, when Jesus says, "Let the one who hasn't sinned throw the first stone," and say that it means that you always have to forgive anything and everything from murder to nitpicking.
But it's not what it means.
The old laws still apply and are still on the books. "Go and sin no more," He says.
So, this means that sin is still on the books, but the punishments meted out in Leviticus are no longer relevant.
It does seem that God is downgrading our ability to be pure. We were made in His Image, but for some reason we are half-baked.
So the punishments in Leviticus no longer apply, since none of us are pure enough to keep them. It couild just be a matter of devolution. We are getting weaker as a species possibly due to cocaine use and sexual pleasure instead of decency.
You don't find any of the old patriarchs down for the count on account of a nose bleed, for instance.
Or a sprained ankle, for heaven's sake.
They were tougher and lived ten times longer.
There is another example in which God has to downgrade his expectations in the account of Sodom. At first he wants a huge number of perfect specimens, then finally it's down to just a few.
Perhaps because God is perfect, He can't understand that we're weaker vessels. Half-baked goofups.
But He's trying.
And we have to keep reminding Him. Give me a break, Dude!
GM,
Without personal reflection, I consider Christian supercessionism to be not only theologically unsound, but vile. It is certainly not of God.
Re/ adultery and Levitican punishment, please note that the Talmudic rabbis eventually established conditions that for anyone to be put to death for adultery there had to be two witnesses to an adulterous sex act--the act itself, not huggy kissy signs that people were probably adulterous. The rabbis clearly didn't want people to be put to death for such a thing.
stu
good point
the history of christianity might be understood in terms of insanity with regards to land
from a catholic point of view there has been this developing detachement from nationalities a recognition that the church per se cannot be contained within nations the idea of catholicity transcends nation even while existing within nations
could the church exist without rome
i think so
maybe a hundred years ago it could not
but now i think she could
the fundamentals and the necessary texts are now universally distributed
around the globe
our new and eternal jerusalem is in heaven even if the vision of such a place guides our desire to do god's work here and now
my arm is better today
thanks for healingthoughts
TtBOMK
jewish law limits all legitimate unions to man and woman
no other sexual alliance is possible
maybe reformed rabbis (some of whom are actually girls) take a more liberal and relaxed view
not a dot not an iota
jesus ups the ante
the individual human heart
is called to task
no matter what the law says
not that you are culpable by law for ogling the perfect breasts of a young maiden but that your intention is subject to moral scrutiny if you would only pay attention
he seems to acknowledge the irrational intuition
even while suggesting full consciousness of ones' intention in thought and act
if women were not able to ask for a divorce they'd be much more careful about who they marry
now they get a get whenever they get to get get
adultery everywhere i look
he... he... help
jh
I think God and the beaches should be open to all. One of the things I like about Christianity is that even lepers and untouchables can join, and are accepted.
It is somewhat vile to be a closed group, and I suppose this animates lots of people. I don't really accept the closed-off nature of Judaism, although of course I like the religion. I just don't get the bloodlines, and the massive genealogies in the OT. It seems icky.
I much prefer a religion which as GM says is open to all, and where those basic lines are no longer there for some to feel exclusive. I grant that some people might want that. I also grant that the price for the exclusivity is enormous.
Ask Aaron, and his lil' sis.
Maybe in allowing everybody in, God also lowered the standards some.
If the Jews are laboring under the old covenant in which purity standards were so high, then God help them.
jh,
from a catholic point of view there has been this developing detachement from nationalities a recognition that the church per se cannot be contained within nations the idea of catholicity transcends nation even while existing within nations
I think you greatly understate the RCC position (and wisdom) here. For this much was obvious to Bonhoeffer in '39. It is a tremendous weakness of the reformation churches (Lutheranism, the Reformed Churches, and the Church of England and its progeny) that they "grew up" under the protection of various princes and kings, and so invariably have a national character. This weakness was fully exposed by the Nazi usurpation of the German Lutheran Churches, who lacked an international polity. It is, in my opinion, shameful that seventy years later, that lesson has not been taken to heart, and the Protestant confessions are still organized along both denominational and national lines.
could the church exist without rome
i think so
An interesting thought. I am skeptical. It seems to me that the RCC system tends to keep the laity weak relative to the orders, and this is problematic w.r.t. local governance (something the Protestants do reasonably well). I do think that we've learned from one another, but I'm skeptical that this theoretical knowledge has had any meaningful reflection in practice, on either side, managed appearances notwithstanding :-(.
my arm is better today
Good!
adultery everywhere i look
I am more optimistic. Sex sells. Adultery sells. Advertising makes both seem more prevalent than they actually are. We're doing a Tuesday evening Bible study, a linear read through the Bible, which seems pedagogically unsound to me. [My immediate reflection: take an ordinary biblically illiterate Christian, and have them read the Bible starting with Genesis, and by the time they get to 2nd Samuel, they're unreconstructed members of the Israelite cult religion.] Anyway, last Tuesday was the Prophets. The question came up, "Why was the Canaanite Religion so attractive?" My response, "Sex sells, now and then -- the Canaanite religion was built around orgasm as mystical union of God and man." The more illiterate of my classmates were scandalized, but it really was that simple. Then and now.
Kirby,
I don't really accept the closed-off nature of Judaism, although of course I like the religion. I just don't get the bloodlines, and the massive genealogies in the OT. It seems icky.
If you talk to contemporary, faithful Jews, they'll make the point that this is not so important. That said, a little humility is warranted here. Both Luke and Matthew state explicit (and not entirely consistent) genealogies of Jesus. These were important then, but not so much today. So it is with the Jews.
If the Jews are laboring under the old covenant in which purity standards were so high, then God help them.
He does.
I think saying a group of folks are exempted from the new covenant is theologically unsound and vile.
So there.
Or did you want to have substantive discussion on this?
Brett, Stephen wrote a comment today at 3:04 pm. I think I was referring to that, but maybe not in the right thread. I'm getting them all confused. Had a busy day.
Stu, generally speaking, a mere assertion of an opinion is considered a poor argument. When you say that supercessionism is vile, you basically are saying that GM's viewpoint is vile, but in order to have an argument strictly speaking, you are supposed to offer REASONS for your assertion as to why it is vile.
Judgements that aren't objective and that are merely subjective are not taken seriously.
We have to back up our arguments to make others see their objective nature, in a way that makes them as clear as two plus two equals four.
If something adds up to being vile, it has to be because it is like something else that we both concede, for example, is vile.
And we have to show the similarity.
I think you are skipping to a conclusion without offering how you arrived at the conclusion.
GM deserves I think a better argument on your part. Unless, of course, you just don't feel like it.
I know St. Paul opens the faith to everyone, even to the uncircumcised. Does Jesus do this as well? I'm not clear on this point?
Of course, to knock the Jews down at this end of what turned out to be not such a fun century, does seem vile. But I don't think that's what GM is doing.
I think he's just saying that the Good News that God just opened the kingdom to anyone who believes in 3:16 is the good news.
I'm still somewhat confused about the double nature of God.
God in the OT is completely unlike Jesus.
God in the OT is a mass murderer, to put it mildly.
In the NT I don't see anything like this. He says to turn the other cheek.
He's all about peace, and about forgiveness, and finding something good to say about traditional enemies like the Samaritans.
What the heck.
it could be said that hitler was more passionate about taking rome than he was about exterminating the jews
since the 18th century there's been this ongoing battle at the local church level about things like including national flags in the sanctuary
during the early part of the 20th century from what i understand it was not possible to see a national flag inside a catholic church
after ww2 it seems there was a sort of relaxing of all this and now once in awhile you'll see a flag for a country
i don't mean to imply that RCC influence is not a real phenomena in spain or peru or quebec
and it would be equally erroneous to suggest that ethnic and national character do not find their way into catholic expression
as long as it doesn't become the primary focus it seems to be OK
i can only speak for rome and my awareness of her
the focus of mission efforts are not about national cultures it is more about availing the benefits of the church to anyone who lives in any place....the whole thing with the latin rite was about assuring the faithful that where ever they are whereever they worship they will be familiar with the liturgy
i understand the fertility cults to be connected to agriculture
corn and wine gods and baal the buull etc
sex does sell
and we might well imagine the fallout of all that temple tango stuff
the jewish bill of order at least seperates from all that while retaining the agricultural awareness within the praise of YHWH
who had the insight that
god is much beyond all our passionate designs
yet not indifferent
not unconcerned
just willing to lay down the line
no other gods
one mystery
get used to it
the rcc in my estimation wants always to uphold what is good and true and beautiful in all culture
and is not so intent on creating culture insofar as it does it is a secondary effect
i'm presently studying the metis
a peculiar north american catholic problem...faith ethnicity politics and clashing cultures all created a context for a tragic failure on the northwest prairies in 1870 - 1890
i think st paul was pretty clear that the jews are included in the christian covenant
for awhile the easter liturgy used to refer to the perfidious jews
now we pray intensely for greater openness and understanding on both sides
good talking points all the way around
jh
Kirby,
Stu, generally speaking, a mere assertion of an opinion is considered a poor argument. When you say that supercessionism is vile, you basically are saying that GM's viewpoint is vile, but in order to have an argument strictly speaking, you are supposed to offer REASONS for your assertion as to why it is vile.
Supercessionism is the devil's own theology, intended to foment war between the peoples of God. Supercessionism is the underlying theology of anti-Semitism, and the driver behind many shameful acts taken in the name of the Church, including the expulsion of the Jews from Spain after the Reconquesta, to the pograms of central and eastern Europe, the Jewish ghettoization throughout Europe, and the Holocaust itself, which drew from Luther's senile and shameful tract "The Jews and their Lies."
Theology matters. It matters in terms of how we interpret scripture, how we understand God, and how we understand the world. The fruit of supercessionism is genocide during "bad" times; and intimidation (including assault, rape, and murder) during "good" times. The fruits of supercessionism are manifestly vile, and it through its fruits that we can confidently judge supercessionism itself to be vile.
For you as Lutheran to need me to make this argument, for you not to know it already, is shameful. It is embarrassing to be in the position of tying these fruits of theology of supercessionism to GM, as he is remarkably among our company for his radical rejection of violence in the name of Jesus Christ. I am confident that he'd vehemently reject the things that have been done in the name of supercessionism, but the link between the theology and its consequences cannot be denied. For supercessionism makes God into a liar, as it makes his promises to the Jews ephemeral, and indeed, the very means of their destruction. But God intended his covenant with the Jews for good, for their good, just as he intends his new covenant to be good for us.
And to answer both you and GM, of course the new covenant is available to the Jews. As, indeed, the old covenant is available to us, even if tradition requires the rabbi to say "no" the first three times he's asked.
Just when I noted stu's frequently illuminating posts on religious topics, he comes up with an "extirpate root and branch" anathema against supersessionism (note sp) in every form.
He and all here are invited to check the Wiki entry for possible modification and correction of stu's condemnation of it after reading there of its different forms and its history from the time of the Apostles and Church Fathers on as well as the views of modern Jewish and various Christian theologians' interpretations of it.
GM's remarks on supersession I think deserve reconsideration in light of this information.
The RC view is introduced as follows:
"Supersessionism is not the name of any official Roman Catholic doctrine and the word appears in no Church documents; however, the Catholic Church does officially teach that the Mosaic covenant was fulfilled and replaced by the New Covenant in Christ. Nevertheless, the Catholic Church does not teach that the Jewish people themselves are effectively irrelevant in terms of eschatology and Biblical prophecy (see: Avery Cardinal Dulles). For the Catholic Church, the Jewish people are a reminder that the 'gifts and calling of God are irrevocable' (Rom 11:29). The Church recognizes an ongoing and unique relationship between the Jewish people, God and the Church. Additionally, the Church teaches that there is an integral continuity between the covenants rather than a rupture."
Stu said,
"For supercessionism makes God into a liar, as it makes his promises to the Jews ephemeral, and indeed, the very means of their destruction."
However, he also attacks the earlier portions of the OT as leading unwitting readers into alliances with Syrian religions.
Finicky.
Parts of St. Paul are really his (if they accord with the PC line), parts of them aren't.
Believing what we want to believe, and using the OT and the NT where it buttresses our beliefs, and downgrading it, or arguing that it's historical, when it doesn't.
Leviticus is off the table simply because it is so, well, not like God to speak like that.
And yet there He is, speaking in the first person.
Close your ears and sing a psalm.
Jim--that's what I mean.
Thank you.
James, et. al.,
Just when I noted stu's frequently illuminating posts on religious topics, he comes up with an "extirpate root and branch" anathema against supersessionism (note sp) in every form.
Indeed, evil should be uprooted, and supersessionism (spelling noted, it's not my forte) is evil.
Having said that, you did well to quote Romans, but I'd argue that a sounder place to begin the discussion is with Romans in its entirety, and not just a verse here or there. I will call out a few passages, but as important milestones in St. Paul's argument rather than as proof texts per se. There is no substitute for reading the whole book and understanding the complete argument.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, “The one who is righteous will live by faith.” (Romans 1:16–17 NRSV)
Note that, in what is often portrayed as a proof text for the reformation, St. Paul is quoting the LXX Habakkuk 2:4 verbatim, "ὁ δὲ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται."
This passage can be read a number of ways, either in the sense that "the righteousness of God" is a honorific of Jesus and this is simply an oblique way of contextualizing Paul's ministry to the Gentiles as a successor to Jesus's ministry to the Jews; or, in the sense that this acknowledges the priority of God's relationship with the Jews as witnessed by the Hebrew Scriptures and the extant Jewish faith, and contextualizes Christianity itself as a "breaking out" of God's righteousness beyond its historical ethnic basis into the larger Gentile world.
This ambiguity, I believe, is largely resolved in favor of the latter by the passage which follows:
Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. (Romans 1:20–21 NRSV)
The point here is (as I said at the beginning of this particular argument, and this is my scriptural warrant), God has revealed himself to all people at all times. We have an innate knowledge of right vs. wrong, and all too often, choose wrong. What is distinctive about the Jews is that their ancestor, Abraham, believed in God's promises to him, and he chose obedience in the face of a challenge that seemed to be nothing less than a repudiation of that promise.
(1 of 3)
(2 of 3)
Looking past the long passage that describes the sins of the Gentiles, we come then to Romans 2, which turns the flamethrower of judgment from the Gentiles onto those who consider themselves to be righteous,
Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. You say, “We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth.” Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? (Romans 2:1–4 NRSV)
Paul goes on to make the point (which he repeats in a variety of ways in the sequel) that claiming a relationship is not the same as being in relationship. You have to live the faith:
There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. (Romans 2:9–13 NRSV)
Here, I read in "sinned under the law" a very specific reference to Judaism proper, and not to Jewish Christians (of which Paul was one), and therefore that "sinned apart from the law" refers to both Christians and to the greater pagan world.
If I were looking for mere proof texts against supersessionism, the following seems pretty good, and indeed, it serves very well as a warrant for much of the language that I've used in my debate with GM:
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much, in every way. For in the first place the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Will their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Although everyone is a liar, let God be proved true, as it is written,
“So that you may be justified in your words,
and prevail in your judging.” (Romans 3:1–4 NRSV)
But again, I'll emphasize that this is must a milestone in a larger context, in which St. Paul honors and criticizes Judaism, but is emphatic about the permanence of God's promises. Paul then talks about where the Christian stands in this context:
What then? Are we any better off? No, not at all; for we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, (Romans 3:9 NRSV)
What can we make of supersessionism in light of this? GM would have us believe that the new promise rendered the old promise void. Yet Paul here goes so far as to say that those who hold to the new promise are no better off for it than those who hold to the old. I suspect that in Paul's mind, there was no radical separation between Christianity and Judaism -- they might be distinct communities, but they are both fundamentally true and valid. Indeed, he makes this explicit just a few verses later:
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. (Romans 3:29–30 NRSV)
(3 of 3)
Paul then makes the point that the distinguishing characteristic of Judaism, as well as Christianity, is faith and not law, again essentially equating the two religions:
For the promise that he would inherit the world did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the law but through the righteousness of faith. If it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation. For this reason it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants, not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham (for he is the father of all of us, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”) (Romans 4:13–17 NRSV)
This is too long already, so I'll cite just a few more notable passages, and argue for a prayerful reading of Romans, with an open heart:
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. (Romans 11:1–2 NRSV)
So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their stumbling salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their stumbling means riches for the world, and if their defeat means riches for Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! (Romans 11:11–12 NRSV)
Here's the verse you cited, with a bit more context:
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember that it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you. (Romans 11:17–18 NRSV)
So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,
“Out of Zion will come the Deliverer;
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.” “And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins.” As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:25–29 NRSV)
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
jh,
it could be said that hitler was more passionate about taking rome than he was about exterminating the jews
An interesting thought, although I don't agree. Certainly Hitler corrupted the German churches, and regretably he was more successful in corrupting the evangelical churches (as the German Lutherans called themselves) than the Catholic churches. And certainly also one could view Hilter's anti-semitism tactically -- in using it, he gave voice to a deep latent anti-semitism within the German society of his day, and also created a pretext for the appropriation of Jewish assets by the Nazi thugocracy.
But I think that a better way of understanding Hilter is to start with what he was for, which is to say, the German people (as understood in light of his particular racist theories), which he saw as being threatened by the admixture of lesser races, oppressed by the jealous WWI allies through the Treaty of Versailles, and threatened by communism within and without. The Jews were implicated in his mind in all three of these racial/existential threats. Anti-semitism was much more than a tactical opportunity for Hitler, it was built into the core of his being.
Hitler's particular program against the Christian churches had both a theoretical and a practical basis. In terms of practicalities, the Churches represented a potential basis for resistance to his crimes, as indeed both the German Catholic Churches and Bonhoeffer's Confessing Churches did. On a theoretical basis, Hilter was offended by Christianity's historical foundation on Judaism, and sought a more proper and explicitly German religion that depended more on the Norse myths and their warrior ethos (hence the popularity of Wagner in Nazi circles), than on Christianity's calls for justice and sacrifice.
since the 18th century there's been this ongoing battle at the local church level about things like including national flags in the sanctuary
during the early part of the 20th century from what i understand it was not possible to see a national flag inside a catholic church
after ww2 it seems there was a sort of relaxing of all this and now once in awhile you'll see a flag for a country
Actually, the battle in Lutheran Churches has tended to go the other way. Historically, the US Flag came into our sanctuaries during WW I, as a way of staking the claim that American Lutherans did not constitute a dangerous German 5th column within the US. But the WWII experience polarized the Lutheran experience. On one hand, we have had a large number of WW II veterans in our congregations, and they see the flag as representing the US triumph over Nazism. On the other hand, those who are more theoretically inclined noted that Nazism used nationalism to undermine the Churches, and we want our Churches to retain the independence to speak words of judgment against our national government, and we remember that Jesus originally spoke of the Kingdom of God against the Kingdom of Caesar. To that end, it is better that the flags go out. I'll note the particular irony that the US flags almost invariably come with Eagle capitals, and lack only the plate below that reads SPQR to make the irony of having them in the sanctuary fully explicit.
A coupla things:
I think Christian freedom allows us to act for ourselves in the economic and legal sphere, so long as we act within the law. It doesn't mandate that we help the helpless, or even mandate that we have to say hello to them.
We can't kill them or steal from them or lie about them, but our duty is to our family, our church, and the government. That's it.
The economic sphere is corrupted when it is mixed with the Christian sphere. This is the basis of two kingdoms' thinking from Augustine through Luther.
It is the communists who want a one-kingdom society. People who want us to act as if this was already heaven are in fact communists, and should feel ashamed. Of course, because they are communists, they are beyond shame.
Secondly, women are welcome here, but I don't believe the idea that men are here because we like to compete, and women aren't because they'd prefer to play pattycakes.
In a normal society the men and women section off, and have little to do with one another, aside from the loved one. In Finland I was so relieved that the women would go in one room and the men into another. The men would talk about whether the chimney drew air properly. The women would talk about bra sizes or whatever it is that women talk about.
In this country feminists have tried to smash the two gender system down into one gender, and exclaim that we're all the same. This is as poisonous as the one kingdom economic system.
I'm happy when women weigh in here from time to time, but I think they're just happier talking among themselves.
Men are men.
Women are women.
In almost every traditional society they always section off.
Men talk amongst themselves, as do the women.
We just have different interests. Also, it's not normal for men to talk with women, and vice versa, without attractions developing, unless people are quite old and perhaps on the way to the rust bucket.
In normal life, I don't pal around with terrorists, or with women.
I might pal around a bit with men, but if they're gay, I avoid them. Because I can't stand that moment when the leering begins and they pop the question.
Friendship is for people who find each other to be completely unattractive, and so can focus on serious questions such as how many peas can you fillip through a bent paperclip hoop within four seconds?
I know, I know. This is somewhat capitalist, the whole game of counting and competition.
But normal men enjoy this but don't really care who wins. It's just having something to do to take the mind off of all the leaks and stuff you have to fix when you get home to the bad plumbing under the sink (you wouldn't believe this house!).
Harry Potter and Hermione are awkward with one another.
It's Harry and Ron who are the pals.
That's the norm.
Do you think Harry and Hermione are going to spend weeks and months shooting one another emails?
That would be communist feminism.
Harry's a capitalist, and a family man. That's just how it's done, what.
Stu - I agree with Kirby that up and calling GM's viewpoint evil and vile is shenanigansy of you.
Would you say 'Islam is evil and vile' or 'Hinduism is evil and vile'?
If so, why don't you more often? If not, how does that square with your calling GM's viewpoint 'vile and evil.'
We all know that beliefs of all stripes inspire and/or are used as excuses for evil things.
The killer in Norway seemed to have very similar political viewpoints (at least in a few phrases about being against 'cultural marxists') to Kirby.
But that doesn't make Kirby's viewpoint evil...
And Kirby, girls are much more prone to engaging in communicative play (rhtyhms, songs, etc.) while also 'talking before doing 'as opposed to 'doing before talking.' Boys relate to each other by competition.
So it goes.
spqr
i did not know that
frankly i am far more worried about
the two headed eagles
whoever came up with that
i have conversations with many women
i have regular exchanges with at least 3
i value greatly the wisdom and the heart they present to me
i would be lost without a few good women in my life
but i'm with you kirborator when it comes to the uppity viscious and know it all kind of modern assertiveness training workshop graduate feminists
those girls mess with my head
and i can't stand 'em and i can't stand being around people sporting the o some peppy and suave samesex stuff either i'm like an old farmer i just don't want to be around it i know i should be more generous but i'm not
but to some extent i think jesus wants us to follow his example i meana it would all be just stuffy narrative and weird liturgy if we didn't somehow but into practice what we believe when we go to church and of course if you hear the gospel long enough you know it means go and do likewise
lex credendi lex orandi
what would jesus do
that's the powerful question
what is jesus doing i mean if he lives forever he must be doing doing doing doing (does someone hear a bell?) something right doing doing doing something ding dong doing
what will jesus do
that's a good question
how will jesus do it
that's a good question
the narrow gate has its consequences
that's all i know
i
am
sure
that
if
i
had
children
i'd
take
them
to
stupid
movies
also
i just needed something else to do
thus
well
nothing more to say
i could say more but
i think i'll leave it at that
still
i think we're meant to have mercy
for the destitute in our range of effort
that's how the world gets to be a better place
2 kingdoms
truly man and truly god
we crave the earthy vibrant vortex
of all we hope for
embracing all that we are
i mean WTF
you think jesus is just sittin' in heaven on his barkolounger waitin for us to do what we will
and adding up the cost of discipleship
like a gambler
i don't think so
no
he wants us to go then and do likewise and love one another as i have loved you and give a drink to the thirsty spit in the mud and mush it into a blind mans' eyes
that sort of thinng
c'mon now
get with the program
against the expectations of the church the modern defaults look like wretched failures we cannot do without
we cannot face the last supper
so we watch tv
see yez
jh
I always had friends who were girls, and I guess I loves to chat so it makes me kind of girlfriendish, maybe but I miss the old ways. I should go and get a bowl cut.
Thanks for sticking up for GM, Brett.
I thought Stu's viciousness was vile and uncalled for, another example of how the left acts, but would never act in relation to the Islamics, as you point out.
We don't know very much yet about what happened in Norway. Let's wait it out. The devil's in the details.
Anyone who hurts children is completely crazy, if you ask me. I think if you ask almost anyone, they would say that was true. This guy was shooting as many as he could find.
Do you have contingency plans for this kind of thing, Brett, at your camp? You really should.
It would scare everybody, but an ounce of mithridation can pay in the long run. We have contingencies at our school.
You never know when someone's going to go off their rocker. It's all too common now.
I wish it wasn't so. Has this always been a constant in human life, or is it worse now?
Also, we have to remember that Stu teaches at a major university and that's how many people act at those places now. It's an attempt to demand conformity.
Probably the top 500 schools are all like that now, with Duke just having been the most visible.
It was the same thing in the Soviet Union under Stalin.
Once that culture of intolerance gets into position, it steamrolls all opposition, and feels righteous in doing so.
It's one of the things that this blog exists to point out.
JH, I'm not against kindness or people helping people. I just don't think it's mandated.
The Ten C's are mandates.
The Good Samaritan is an intelligent option you can take some day, but it's not mandated 24/7. We have freedom, and can choose to help someone.
Marxism is a way of first demonizing all opposition and then forcing everyone to behave in a specific way. It uses shame and bullying.
Here's an example of a feminist railroading a conservative male that uses all the ugly rhetoric a human can muster. Amanda Marcotte went to a top college and majored in hate:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/07/22/allen_west_is_sexist_but_that_s_the_least_of_his_problems_.html
Brett,
I agree with Kirby that up and calling GM's viewpoint evil and vile is shenanigansy of you.
I respectfully disagree. The fruits of supersessionism are a historical fact, which I've detailed. The fruits of supersessionism are uniformly bad. The scriptural arguments against it are firm and certain. And I'll note that I was, and remain, very careful about judging the supersessionism as theology, and distancing myself from any adverse reflection on GM personally. Indeed, I've noted that I find it perverse and shocking that a person who is by far the strongest among us in his commitment to peace (which I intend as a compliment) should espouse a theology that has such bloody hands.
Would you say 'Islam is evil and vile' or 'Hinduism is evil and vile'?
I would not, but that's not a sensible parallel, because I am not criticizing Christianity (a religion, in its entirety), but rather a heretical doctrine held by a minority within Christianity. Thus, while I would not characterize Islam as evil and/or vile, I would characterize certain heretical doctrines of Islam in those terms, e.g., the theocratic, terrorist theologies of radical Islam.
If so, why don't you more often? If not, how does that square with your calling GM's viewpoint 'vile and evil.'
First off, I consider this to be a mischaracterization of my view of GM, because it is not his entire viewpoint that I'm characterizing this way, just one piece of it that is inconsistent with the whole.
Second, I have no problem characterizing terrorist theologies as being evil and vile; whatever their basic religious substrate.
Kirby,
I was careful to characterize my opinions as referring to certain theological opinions that GM holds, and to avoid characterizing GM himself as evil or vile, because truly, he is neither. But you have no difficulty in immediately characterizing me personally as "vicious" for my judgment on just one of his theological commitments.
Your criticism of me in this context is pure hypocracy, as clear a case of "do what I say, not what I do" as can be imagined. The notion that my remarks are somehow exceptional for this venue is absurd given your own posts, and the tenor you yourself have set for it.
And I've done far more than merely characterize supersessionism as evil, I've argued why from scripture, theology, and history. Yet I've seen only two counter-arguments, both of which are weak and easily dealt with.
The first was some clearly defective exegesis by GM, which I countered earlier by simply expanding the context of his "proof" text. This broader context shows his interpretation to be unsupportable. The second was JADL's citation of a wiki article that defines supersessionism in such broad terms as to divest it of its historical meaning. Just to be clear here, GM has clearly provided an interpretation of supersessionism that is much, much narrower, in which Judaism post-Christ is not a valid path to God, and this is the meaning that is relevant for this debate.
So, being unable to sustain arguments against my evaluation of supersessionism (in the sense that GM defines, i.e., in its historically dominant sense) you've decided to escalate by going ad hominem.
Stu, I wasn't characterizing you as vicious, although your characterization of GM struck me as vicious. But I wanted Brett and others to consider that you, like all of us, are products of a given place. Your place, the U. of C., is no doubt in full killing field mode, much like Duke and many of our other institutions of higher education, where to my mind the last gasp of Mao's cultural revolution is raging. God help anyone who is caught in its ravages.
You can hardly resist the rhetoric and relentless of the discourse that surrounds you. It's spreading. We hear traces of it in Obama, who's a full-fledged member of that school of thought, and his willingness to throw his grandmother, and Officer Crowley, under the bus, reveal that he's not immune to the blandishments of the leftist hordes. No one who's been through it is immune.
Over in computer science you are probably fairly well-protected, but I often wonder where you pick up words like vile, and why you're willing to pass them down the line.
I think it's better to listen deeply to people and try to get down to the roots of why they think the way they do, remaining as calm and neutral as possible while so listening.
GM often amuses and surprises me. I love that he thinks Wal-Mart is a kind of slave camp, and that Lincoln is a butcher akin to Nero (not sure quite how he characterizes or categorizes his butchers, but suspect that he never recognizes the notion of CHARITY that can be found in war, and instead mischaracterizes it all as under the sign of Satan, a notion that seems goofy, and yet clearly is a parallel to certain leftist trends that were creeping up through the links between the communists and the Amish groups who used psychological warfare tactics during the summer of love in order to bash the brains out of anyone who opposed them while leaving them physically intact -- that was one order of the left -- another order went the Ayers route and made bombs and planted them to blow people up -- something Ayers said he was unrepentant about -- and which came out on 9/11 in the NYT).
We are all products of our place and time.
It's hard to understand others without very deep listening.
The left doesn't listen. They condemn based on a few criteria, and then move in for the kill. the kill might not be literal, and might instead be psychological. But it's a violent dismissal of others.
That's why I will have nothing more to do with them.
The far right seems to be similar. They reach bizarre conclusions and then destroy anyone who seems to hold another position. Whatever happened in Oklahoma City seems to trend that way, and now what happened in Oslo appears to trend that way.
But often the nuts of the far right are individuals who are mentally ill. But not always. Sometimes they actually hold Nazi viewpoints.
we had a creep over in Cooperstown who shot a black teen. In court he quite coherently said that "Jews and Niggers" had wrecked the world, and he wanted to destroy them all.
Whenever someone arrives at the viewpoint that a large group of people has to be destroyed, it worries me.
The OT is full of that kind of thinking. God in the OT even appears to sanction that kind of thinking. I find it appalling.
I don't think GM would lay a finger on a Jewish person. He just thinks that Christ and Paul announce that the earlier more restrictive covenant had been superceded by the newer one.
I do think people are allowed to differ from any kind of boilerplate. It's ok to differ. It doesn't make the person vile, and it doesn't make them guilty of everything done in the name of a certain way of thinking.
Hitler was vegetarian. Being vegetarian doesn't make you into Hitler.
It's ok I think to believe that God has also reached out to the untouchables of India and to the lepers, and to all people, everywhere.
I still don't know why He changed His mind.
I would like to explore this.
Kirby,
Your place, the U. of C., is no doubt in full killing field mode
Not that I've noticed. But rather than rely on my assessment, you'd do well to search the internet for UC faculty discussions around the decision to create the Milton Friedman Institute (soon to be the Becker Friedman Institute). Given that Milton Friedman is something of a saint of the right, you'd expect this would be a lightning rod around which leftists at UC would organize and mobilize. And to a limited extent, this did happen, but I'd characterize the faculty discussion as a whole as being balanced, and hardly dominated by leftist voices.
Over in computer science you are probably fairly well-protected, but I often wonder where you pick up words like vile, and why you're willing to pass them down the line.
Vile is hardly an unusual word. I'll note that there are 11 occurrence of the word in the NRSV, including three occurences in a single story in Judges (cf., 19:16ff), which we've both recently read. And I consider the judgment to be fair given the case.
I think it's better to listen deeply to people and try to get down to the roots of why they think the way they do, remaining as calm and neutral as possible while so listening.
It is better. You should consider doing it.
I don't think GM would lay a finger on a Jewish person. He just thinks that Christ and Paul announce that the earlier more restrictive covenant had been superceded by the newer one.
I agree with both, and am arguing with the second. So far, it seems that I'm arguing alone, as there's been no competent opposition.
It's ok I think to believe that God has also reached out to the untouchables of India and to the lepers, and to all people, everywhere.
OK, so you stand with me on the theological substance of the debate.
I would like to explore this.
Read Romans.
Stu, your quotes of scripture, to a large degree, seem not to be directly relevant the way you think they are - It seems like many of those passages are talking about the difference between Jewish Christfollowers and gentile Christfollowers.
That being said, this portion: " As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" is pretty spot-on.
Though what of the good ol' "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me."
Well, anyway, unlike Luther, I'm not a supersessionist - it just seemed a bit quick for you to pull out the vile/evil card.
And in terms of the fruits of the doctrine, it's a squares/rectangles thing. I suppose if you're going to be a Christian anti-semite, you'd have to be supersessionist...Though being supersessionist doesn't automatically make you anti-semitic.
A supersessionist viewpoint justifies disgusting acts against Jews to the same degree that all other Christian viewpoints justify disgusting acts against non-Christians and non-Jews... Which is to say not at all...
Thanks for these updates which I shall read more carefully anon. I have to take my kids to a pool before we melt.
I'd like to canvas readers as to the word "vile."
For me, it's an unusually vitriolic term. I don't think I've ever used it in my entire life, except for in this conversation. It seems to be a friendship killing term.
I wonder how it felt for poor GM to be on the receipt of such a term.
It may have been more usual to use such strong language in the OT.
I'd say that today we cast our disagreements with less overwhelming judgment, but I didn't ban the term.
I was shocked to see it, though.
It felt like a shotgun shot at point blank range. I didn't know how it would be received by GM, though.
I hope we're all in one piece.
With Curtis having courteously taken his leave, I hope we're not all taking leave of our senses.
Get thee to a water park if you're overheating, folks! don't forget the sunscreen!
I wonder
Went swimming for an hour with the kids. There's a nice couple on the next block who don't use their pool, and invited us to hop in whenever we like. The funny part is that they called us last week and my wife answered and she thought it was another household. So we went and jumped in the other household's pool, but I now realize we hadn't been invited into that pool.
Oops.
They looked a little amazed we were in their pool.
Well, most of the kids at least could pass for Goldilocks.
Let's talk more about supercession. I think the notion of a chosen people is fairly disgusting on the face of it. It allows the group so chosen to treat others as if they are garbage, giving them the right and even the duty to commit genocide, while laughing about them.
Brett did a good job going the middle way with this, and opening up the problem of Christ's message that there is no way to God except through Him.
This means all other ways are invalid, so that presumably all attempts that don't put Christ first (Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Satanists, Unitarians, etc.) won't work.
Brett put his finger right on the button.
I'm used to being on the receiving end of Brett's button-pushing.
But this time I'd say he got his finger right on the exact problem with the old covenant.
Nice work, Brett.
As for violence, and verbal violence, I'd say that it's not experienced unless it's directed AT YOU. The left just loves to dish this out. If you're on their side you're usually fairly safe.
If, like me, you're often finding yourself at a different angle, and if you've been at a somewhat different angle for some thirty odd years or more with them, you get used to how riled up they got, and how unreasonable they seem.
But I do invite it sometimes. I remember once in an elite cafe thirty years ago in Seattle someone was making the argument that the Jews were the same as the people around them and who were there before them.
I said, "Oh no, the Jews have realized that Israel was built on a desert. So they put in swimming pools!"
I thought this showed inventiveness and forward-thinking.
"Racist!" my interlocutor snarled.
I said nothing about Semitic races, and how DNA samples indicate no separate race here.
But then of course the human race is the only actual race there is.
There are no genetic markers for separate races.
Race is a Marxist fiction, like gender. This is not to say that race and gender don't exist. They do. But the way they are used as monolithic categories in Marxist thought is fictional and shows totally skewed judgment on their part.
Class is also fictional. Of course class exists. But the way it's used in MArxist thought to create violent binaries (good and bad) is about as subtle as a western for three-year olds.
Brett,
Stu, your quotes of scripture, to a large degree, seem not to be directly relevant the way you think they are - It seems like many of those passages are talking about the difference between Jewish Christfollowers and gentile Christfollowers.
I agree in part with the later. Paul uses "Jew" ambiguously, and so it is important to look at context, and I started out by pointing out exactly that kind of ambiguity (in Rom 1:17), and how you had to look at context to sort it out.
If you'd like to point to specific verses where you think I've disambiguated incorrectly, I'm certainly willing to listen and discuss.
Though what of the good ol' "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me."
And oft cited passage, but one that I think is consistently misinterpreted. The passage says that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. OK, as trinitarians, we view God in three persons, each with somewhat distinct roles. Jesus has just explained his. But notice, the passage does not say "except through belief in me," yet that's how people read it.
This raises an important point. We're saved by faith, not by doctrine, i.e., not by the knowledge that we're saved by faith. As Christians, we've been entrusted with a glimpse into the interior life of God that the Jews do not have. Is that knowledge necessary for salvation? Let's hope not, because I doubt that one Christian theologian in a hundred can give a reasonably coherent account of the Trinity. The Jews may not have this knowledge, but they do have faith.
Well, anyway, unlike Luther, I'm not a supersessionist - it just seemed a bit quick for you to pull out the vile/evil card.
There's at least 600 years of European history that argues otherwise, punctuated by the 20th century. I don't believe you'd have any problem characterizing theories of racial superiority this way, and you'd happily point to the institutions of African slavery and the Holocaust as justification for such an opinion. I see supersessionism in the same light, but with an even longer historical pedigree.
The competency issue boils down to Stu's argument that anyone who dares to question whether the Jews still have an operative covenant is guilty by association with those who used the seeming negation of their contract via Jesus to demolish the Jews.
But I don't think GM for instance wants to demolish anybody.
But he is getting lumped in with those who do.
JADL points out that there are other more venerable outfits that have been in favor of supercession.
He mentions the Catholic church.
The OT is somewhat hard for me to read because of all the open genocide. It's making me sick to my stomach. Also, God is quite rough to many, like Miriam, who do not seem to have been completely out of line to question their status in God's eyes. His answer: turn them snow white with leprosy.
Maybe God took a chill pill.
I wouldn't know. In the New Testament there are lots more good characterizations of out-groups such as that in the Good Samaritan.
It's true that there's Ruth in the OT, but only because she's completely gone native with the Jews.
I like Jewish people, although most of the ones I meet are lapsed.
I just can't understand how you can read the OT and not come away appalled.
It makes Stephen King's demonic characters look benign.
Kirby,
I'd like to canvas readers as to the word "vile."
For me, it's an unusually vitriolic term. I don't think I've ever used it in my entire life, except for in this conversation. It seems to be a friendship killing term.
I wonder how it felt for poor GM to be on the receipt of such a term.
It may have been more usual to use such strong language in the OT.
I'd say that today we cast our disagreements with less overwhelming judgment, but I didn't ban the term.
You should know better than to make such claims in a world that contains Google.
It was a minute's work to find the world vile in your mouth, cf., IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, in which you refer to "Martin Heidegger the vile Nazi asswipe." Strong language indeed. Or later, in PALIN ON CENSORSHIP, "What could be more vile and putrid than these three books (at least to extreme Christians)?"
The same Google search "vile site:lutheransurrealism.blogspot.com" shows four pages of hits. "Vile" is used most often by GM himself, and then by JADL. Indeed, James used it in reference to me in the "Arizona shooting: Some Preliminary Remarks on a Sickening Event" thread. And it was used several times to refer to J. In none of these prior cases did the use of the word itself attract any special attention. That it does so now is a telling judgment on your self-proclaimed "neutrality."
I was shocked to see it, though.
Channeling Captain Renault, now? It seems strangely apropos, "I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"
Stu, these are good finds. I didn't realize I ever used it, and I thought the humor of your last line was particularly funny.
I still don't think I would apply it to a person in my immediate friendship circle.
That JADL used it on J seems fine to me, since that word DOES apply to J and his steroid enhanced ramblings.
However, J is not in my friendship circle.
I do think that your application of it to GM shocked even Brett, your usual ally. That he sought to get you to reconsider its use seems an unlikely request of him to you, and indeed it seems motivated by a special antagonism that perhaps has a history in your past on campus, or in your church.
I have no idea.
It just seemed especially strong and violent coming from you.
JADL has a different vocabulary (which he's toned down some as most of us are such high-tea Victorians, and easily offended -- curtis so offended he can no longer abide our presence -- mad hatters that we are).
Obviously you don't have to apologize.
I think when I used it in at least one of the cases I was being deliberately hyperbolic and somewhat jocular in terms of exaggeration, and since I used it with regard to Heidegger, an unrepentant Nazi, I don't think I'll recall it. May he burn in hell.
A fascinating research you've done. I think it is an innovative move, and one we'd all do well to consider in future to make our own cases. I liked it!
I still think this was an outsized stink on your part toward GM, whose only real crime in my eyes was to emphasize his own faith.
Kirby,
Stu, these are good finds. I didn't realize I ever used it, and I thought the humor of your last line was particularly funny.
Glad you liked them. I thought you'd appreciate the Claude Rains line.
That he sought to get you to reconsider its use seems an unlikely request of him to you, and indeed it seems motivated by a special antagonism that perhaps has a history in your past on campus, or in your church.
In the Lutheran Church, specifically. There is this matter of the Holocaust, and Lutheran complicity in it.
If JADL wants to point out that the Catholics (and I'd add the Lutherans) were once supersessionists, and you want to affirm that, that's your business and his. But I'll note that neither is today. Hilter exposed a number of weaknesses in the theology and organization of the Christian Churches of his day. Supersessionism was one of them, which is why the mainstream churches now reject it. And it is especially remarkable, I think, that the RCC, which rarely cleans house theologically, was moved to reject this, presumably out of introspection over its own role in the Holocaust, cf., Nostra Aetate. It's a short read, and a good one.
JADL has a different vocabulary (which he's toned down some as most of us are such high-tea Victorians, and easily offended -- curtis so offended he can no longer abide our presence -- mad hatters that we are).
JADL has toned down some. But I'll note that the Arizona thread is recent. My words were referred to as vile by what you are now trying to frame as the kinder, gentler James. I guess I should be grateful.
This is a venue that's often laid down a marker that it will not tolerate PC restrictions on speech, that strong language in support of strong opinions is proper. Evidently that license is only applicable in support of conservative opinions; otherwise, for all your bleating about how evil the lefties are over their enforcement of PC language, you're eager to enforce yourself in service of the right. As I've said before, you can set the tone of this venue. Indeed, you have.
Obviously you don't have to apologize.
GM has not asked for an apology, and I'm not about to consider offering one if he gives no sign of taking personal offense. I'll note that GM's reaction was to turn the word "vile" around to characterize my position, which seems more in accord with the zeitgeist of this venue than your efforts at linguistic demonization. His point was that my position is tantamount to damning the Jews to a false faith, where Christian mercy requires an active attempt to convert them. This, it seems to me, is an honest and faithful conclusion, albeit one that is based on a false foundation. And so I've argued.
But I will reiterate what I said at the beginning, "without personal reflection." And certainly, I didn't see personal reflection in his retort. In any event, I'm bemused that you and James (and even Brett) seem to think that GM needs defending. He and I have argued before. He's held his own, and has my respect as a Christian and as a debater. Even when he's wrong.
I still think this was an outsized stink on your part toward GM, whose only real crime in my eyes was to emphasize his own faith.
You're entitled to your opinion. I have never questioned GM's faith, and am now calling into question only the soundness of one part thereof. Strongly calling into question, 'tis true. And rightly so.
I don't think GM would lay a finger on a Jewish person. He just thinks that Christ and Paul announce that the earlier more restrictive covenant had been superceded by the newer one.
This.
And thank you, Brett.
Stu, "vile" was, I think, out of hand and non-contributory (which is why I retaliated in the tongue-and-cheek-cum-annoyed reply); one can argue (as folks often do) that "vile" things have been done in the name of Christianity in general (we can talk about the treatment of the Schwarzenau Brethren at the hands of Lutherans at a later date. . .).
I've not had time (nor the experience and baggage that comes with being a Lutheran) to look at Supersessionism until today (thanks, wikipedia).
I'm certainly not a Punitive Supersessionist (like Luther); I'm a Universalist in that I believe all either can or will be restored to God--on God's terms, mind you.
I would say that I am somewhere inbetween Economic and Structural--that is, because of Christ's fulfillment of the Mosaic law and because of the new covenant (note, it is not "another covenant" but a new one--signifying replacement) and because of the notion that in Christ and the kingdom of heaven (which we are told is within us) there is neither Jew nor Greek there is no "special path" for Judaic practices, nor does the Jews status as "chosen" hold living water.
As you say, supersessionism of the "hard" type has been used to persecute Jews.
Well, that's just stupid--and clearly contrary to the instruction of Christ. Just because someone manipulates theology to murder people doesn't make that theology vile.
It makes the person vile.
It's like arguing that a 737 is evil because people can fly it into a skyscraper.
There's nothing wrong with the theology--but there's lots of things wrong with humanity.
Talk about supercession. Here's a Palestinian who is the son of the founder of Hamas who argues that Islam should be shut down as a vast terrorist organization and that the truth is only to be found in Jesus Christ.
http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=34862
It appeared on Finnish television. You'll get a sense of how Finns speak when they try to speak English (my wife is quite fluent in English, but older Finns speak Finnglish like this).
At any rate, I think GM has a powerful point.
The point is not however to destroy those who don't believe in Christ (Hitler used supercession to do this).
People have to freely choose the truth, or else it isn't fair.
Still, I think GM is correct. Perhaps this is a coming viewpoint of the younger generation? Here, again, is the link.
The good part is about 3 minutes in, but the whole interview (seven minutes) is astonishing:
http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=34862
there is something greater than jonah here
yet even to refer to jonah indicates narrative sequence
the sign of jonah
we are whale vomit
jh
Non-supersessionism (what's the actual term?) makes a special, positive case for Jews as being the only people who can be saved without belief in Jesus.
Thus, if you are an anti-semite, it is impossible to be non-supersessionist.
However, if you are supersessionist, you are necessarily lumping Jews in with the rest of the world, not necessarily viewing them as lesser.
Correct or incorrect, it is in no way a parallel worldview to those that inherently place values on certain people as less than human.
To conflate these, Stu, is to pull a Kirby.
If you believe that supersessionism is inherently vile, then you also have to believe that Christianity itself is inherently vile - The supposed lesserness that is applied to Jews in a supersessionist viewpoint is the same supposed lesserness that applies to all non-believers under Christianity.
Taking away a special positive viewpoint is not the same as applying an active negative one.
Kirby, thanks for the link--an interesting testimony for sure. It was my impression that the Finnish interviewer was not hostile, but he did seems somewhat oppositional. If so, could it be an instance of PC's influence there?
For a short commentary on "Oslo and the Dangers of Moral Equivalence" by a conservative academic (Classics, Comp Lit):
http://www.aina.org/news/2011072595935.htm
anonymous christians
we're all bad catholics
even the sons and daughters of
jacob
theodoros of mopsuestia was fond of saying
to the extent that eternity is implicated all creation all life is implicated in the conspiracy of grace
at least i think it was that guy who said that
it may have been fulgentius of ceasarea
or polycarp
origen may have said that too
bells will soon ring
jh
JADL, yes, PC has reached Finland. It was there when I was there ten years ago, but it's all surface. Underneath, no one believes any of it, I think.
It's a mask, or a masque, as I often suspect it is in America, too.
That is, the whole masquerade of "I am good," aren't I?
I imagine there were similar things in Victorian periods that everyone had to subscribe to.
What things did all "educated" people believe back then, which no one any longer believes?
Are you saying JH that all of creation should be married at one throw? Hard to determine consent in a starfish, but OK!
Brett,
Non-supersessionism (what's the actual term?) makes a special, positive case for Jews as being the only people who can be saved without belief in Jesus.
This seems like too narrow a definition, as it does not include my position. I believe that God reveals himself to all people at all times. I believe that there are many paths to salvation, and I number Christianity and Judaism among them, but without claiming that this is an exhaustive list. I'm just not willing to commit myself further, although it seems likely to me that Islam, Unitarianism, and Ba'hai also contain paths to God. The alternative, it seems to me, is to believe that God condemned the great majority of humanity to live and die in conditions that precluded any possibility of salvation, because they had no knowledge of Christ.
Indeed, I'm finally getting around to reading the Qu'ran, and will note the following verse [2.62]: "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." Islam, at least when it is true to its own scripture, is not supersessionistic. I have no idea, BTW, who the Sabians are, and evidently neither do modern scholars.
I do believe that Christianity provides me with the clearest and best understanding of God, and that following Jesus is my most secure path to salvation. But in the end, I think that any path that takes you to God is a saving path, and that there's hubris in saying that the path God provided for me is the only path for all of you, whether it was open to you or not.
no
what i am saying is
god so loved the world
and he didn't divvy it up
like he might o saidyeah
i likes this part and not that
the image of the crucifixion
is a marital image insofar as we accept
from the song of songs
this love god seems to have
and some people seem to be aware of it
and it is well should we say
a bit disturbing
that being said
he gave radical uniqueness to all things
and all things abide in their inherent design
the beauty of the earth only expresses itself when it works out in the cause of life giving life to life
my cup of coffee informed me this morning that we all have needs
and that's why some sort of moral organization is necessary
but then there's norway
the world is run amok
i will hide in my chapel
and pray
drool puke and pray
i'm not at all sure that the twins can pull out a halfway decent season
they've proven they can beat anyone
but thaey've also proven that they waver every week between brilliance and stinky trash one week liriano pitches a shut out the next week he does't last two innings
it doesn't matter really
baseball is ruined
it's become a wad of cotton candy
on a hot day
and little else
cotton candy and rock and roll that is too loud
in my mind i play baseball
with my pals and nothing else matters
now everything but baseball matters
even fox news
and used car lots
i know why the buddhists sit and stare at the wall
yo
jh
What does Jesus say is the path to salvation? It is those who follow the law.
What, according to Jesus, is the law?
To love God and to love our neighbor.
If you are lawless (loveless) then you're thrown on the trash heap.
If you have law (love) then the kingdom of heaven is within you.
Pretty easy, really (and to bring us back to the original topic, the whole point of the Potter Saga).
So while I don't believe that "all paths lead to God" (and, clearly, that is not what Jesus says, Stu) I do believe that "all love leads to God" which is what Jesus says, several times.
GM,
So while I don't believe that "all paths lead to God" (and, clearly, that is not what Jesus says, Stu)
And it's also, clearly, not what I said. What I said is that God speaks to all people, and that salvation is in available to everyone. [So put me down as rejecting predestination.] But I never said that everyone listens, or that everyone is successful in finding a path.
But having said that, your last post seems like a good summary of my position, which makes me wonder why we're arguing with one another, instead of joining together to argue against Kirby, who would certainly not accept a conflation of law and love.
I think the reason he's not joining together with you, Stu, is that you called his Christian position to be vile, and still haven't apologized.
Apologize, and you two could probably gang up on me with your one kingdom viewpoint.
However, I still have Luther on my side.
"A Mighty Fortress is Our God."
And I can hum the Battle Hymn of the Republicans, too.
Meanwhile, I have put up a whole new post to distract you toward thinking about the deficit, which was caused by the one-kingdom thinker who is our current president, and who can't seemingly differentiate between illegal aliens, unconstitutional breaches of the commerce clause, and even who wrote what (what does he care about private property?), which has in turn ruined our economy.
One kingdom thinking is a lot of fun, but it's totally incoherent.
Even Jesus knew this when he said that his kingdom was not of this world.
I grant that Jesus is "out of this world," and knowledge of Him could save the unwashed billions, and why he chose to appear to us, but not to the Muslims is probably at least partially a consequence of their failure to accept the competition, and their murder of anyone who goes over there to spread the good news.
It's against the law in many Islamic countries to talk about Christianity, or even to be a Christian. It's a capital crime, in fact.
At any rate, I'm with GM.
The advent of Jesus is the beginning of a new world order whch has toppled Rome, and will eventually topple not just Mecca but also Beijing.
It's possible that Jesus DID appear to the Muslims, but they killed him even faster than the Jews did. If the Second Coming had happened in Tehran, would anybody know?
Ahem:
So while I don't believe that "all paths lead to God" (and, clearly, that is not what Jesus says, Stu)
And it's also, clearly, not what I said. What I said is that God speaks to all people, and that salvation is in available to everyone.
Actually, you said this:
I believe that there are many paths to salvation, and I number Christianity and Judaism among them, but without claiming that this is an exhaustive list.
Right.
Forgive me for using "all" instead of "many" but the jist of your position is still that Jesus isn't "the way" but just "a way."
GM,
I've used different ways to explain my position. But I'll note that "many" is not the same as "most," and it's certainly different from "all." I would neither affirm nor deny "most," because it seems to me that the evidence is ambiguous. And, in a sense, it depends how you count. If a person is lawful and loveful, do we call the path to God that runs through Yahweh the same or different than the path that runs through Allah? Is the path the Brethren different from the Lutheran path? Is the path through Vishnu the same as the path through the Tao? Is there a path through Wicca at all? I don't know -- it seems to me to be more a matter of convention that truth.
Forgive me for using "all" instead of "many" but the jist of your position is still that Jesus isn't "the way" but just "a way."
It seems to me that we have a theological choice. We can take the position that the path through Jesus, i.e., the path that depends on confessing Jesus by name as Lord, is the only path to God. And if we take that position, we say that God's promises to the Jews were ephemeral, yet scripture says, "God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind. Has he promised, and will he not do it? Has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? (Numbers 23:19 NRSV)"
Or, we can take the position that God's promise to the Jews is eternal as his word, and with it, accept that there are paths to God that do not require explicit confession of Jesus as Lord. Certainly, I've known Jews who by your formula of lawfulness/lovingness have as much claim to the Kingdom of Heaven as I do, and who I suspect are no less acceptable to God than I am.
It seems to me that you're trying to embrace two positions that are naturally opposed to one another. One is, as you say, "all love leads to God." The other is that Jesus is the only way to God. It is possible to reconcile the two, but only by positing that non-Christians can't love. This is entirely at odds with my experience.
"Forgive me for using "all" instead of "many" but the jist of your position is still that Jesus isn't "the way" but just "a way."
Your position too, GM, seems to be that 'Jesus is a way, not the way.' Since it seems (I could be misinterpreting, you could be lacking clarity) that you believe 'love is the way,' whether or not it is directly tied to Jesus... Which would make learning to love God and each other Through Jesus is just 'a way' and not 'the way.'
Post a Comment