Friday, December 23, 2011

The Capitalist Value of Artists and Art



One of the strangest and most persuasive groups in the left is the massive artist contingent. Almost all artists are failures. However, many among this vast 99% of failures believes with all of his or her heart that they are geniuses whose work should be supported by the rest of us. Very seldom do the rest of us feel that this is the case. I've never bought a piece of art, and probably never will. I would rather look at an ant walking through a macaroni noodle, or look at a tree. Most of us feel that with most artists, their work on canvas or paper is a defacement of the price of the paper which was worth more before it was tampered with (it's hard to write a poem on a piece of paper that's already got something on it). And yet the million marchers for art believe that it is almost a moral imperative that they be paid for their creations, and their often childlike belief that they are important (often in the face of all opposition) leaves me in a state. And yet these folks can be fairly persuasive. They have an education (usually) and they can push around most people, and get used to doing this. Many of them want socialism because they believe that in a socialist system their art will get the attention it deserves. In actual praxis, this has almost never been the case. I have come to hate the notion that artists should be supported by farmers, and taxi drivers, and police officers, or the business community, as if they have the right to demand money from taxes paid by people with actual professions. Artists are basically people that have not planned their future (if they did they would not be artists), and now want the rest of us to bail them out. But there is something wonderful about a failed artist. Their egos are so huge that many of them feel the world owes them a living, because everything they do is entitled to compensation out of the public purse. The 1% who can make a living from art, or sport, or anything like play, are to be heralded. The vast 99%?

In the 1890s there was a utopian colony based on Proudhonian time banks in Port Angeles, Washington. This colony had a strange capitalism. If you spent an hour growing potatoes you could go into the time bank and get a poem someone worked on for an hour. And if you wrote a poem, you could get a sack of potatoes. Obviously, everyone was dragging in poems and songs, and soon the place went belly up.

Should the artist automatically be paid the same as all other workers, and should their work be considered the same as the growing of potatoes?

In some cases (Camille Pissarro's Potato Harvest above) you get an amazing artist whose worth is almost limitless. More generally you get a painter whose worth most people think is quite limited: even laughable. My own poems are often laughable. I probably write a hundred for every one that has promise. Then occasionally one or two will stick. I realize they are done, and generally, they go right into print. Some artists are like that with almost everything they make. If it says Picasso on it, it's generally thought to be excellent, and in some sense it is (Picasso was morally deficient, and this is also evident in everything he did, but one has to look close to discern this).

Should society pay everyone equally without regard to what they are making? Many artists believe yes! But art is by nature a very competitive enterprise in which almost everyone will fail. In all fields of endeavor those who are the best at it get paid better than the failures. Can you even be a mess at working at McDonald's, or working at Burger King, or sweeping up a building? Less likely, but obviously some are better at sweeping up than others. Should the ones who make a big mess get paid the same sum as those who do a neat job? Should it be legal to fire the ones who simply can't do the job right?

John Stuart Mill comments on the vast 99% in competitive fields: "In other words, society admits no right, either legal or moral, in the disappointed competitors, to immunity from this kind of suffering; and feels called on to interfere, only when means of success have been employed which it is contrary to the general interest to permit -- namely, fraud or treachery, and force" (p. 101, On Liberty).

"Trade is a social act" (p. 101), Mill writes. But who should choose what gets made and who should buy it? The arts are strange because if you are in the right place at the right time (the right gallery in the right city with the right critical backing at a time of high economic activity) you might be able to make a killing. Generally, however, you are in the middle of nowhere, and can't get the work to market, and if you could, no one would be interested. It's maybe easier to make it in sports. There are more sports. But the shelf life of a sports star is usually ten years or less (one tear in the rotator cuff and you are toast and your market value is nil if you are a pitcher or a quarterback or a badminton player). A very famous artist can work in their nineties (Picasso) and still attract interest. Most however never generate any interest, or some generate it after their death (Van Gogh).

Wages for art are weird and susceptible to strange variation, but usually they amount to zero. I have poems coming out in Potomac Review, Passager, Poetry East, and Christianity and Literature, and the grand sum I'm getting for those poems is eight copies (altogether) of the journals. Almost no one reads poetry. Very few seek it out. Many write it. I don't know anyone who has made a living out of it aside from teaching it. Some few sell 60,000 copies. I think Ginsberg sold that number of his Collected. Billy Collins wrote a book or two that were bestsellers.

Most poets work hard at poetry. Should they get paid as if they are working in a McDonald's? Or as if they are working in a hot real estate market? Or even more?

If so, who is going to lay out the loot?

Some argue that the labor theory of value is the only good one, and that if you put in a certain amount of labor, you should get paid. Manual laborers often insist on that. Should bad workmen receive the same salary as the good (based on a sentence by Mill on p. 93)? Should a poet who works really hard at it get a salary?

If you are merely investing paper in Wall St., ought you to make any kind of living at all from the risk of investing? From the day laborer's vantage point, it doesn't seem to be real work, just as working on mathematics may not seem like real work to someone who digs ditches for a living. What kind of effort went into the creation of the wealth of a speculator? Should they be able to risk all without having a net beneath them? From the vantage point of the artist, this is as much of a ripoff as their paintings, so why shouldn't the government also pay for artists who've risk their entire life on the hope of becoming famous?

If a person spends their time immersed in brothels or in drug use, should they get the same salary as someone who spends their time working 9-5 in a gas station? To the questions of equity and fairness should be added the question of equality.

On what should the value of a thing be placed? Should it be based on the time it took to create? On the labor that went into it? On its perceived quality? Or on whatever you can get someone to pay for it? Or something else?

53 comments:

Craig said...

Hollywood lore has it that James Franco was working for MacDonalds when he landed the role of James Dean in the made for television biopic that won him a Golden Globe and an Emmy. His acting coach allegedly told him he could pay his school fees after he became rich and famous.

The three Spiderman movies grossed over $2 billion dollars. The plot for Spiderman is not just a comic book story. Its formula is classic Horatio Alger myth.

Helene Cixous and Jacques Derrida are both Algerian by birth. The Plague by Albert Camus and The Stranger by Sartre were godsends for them.

J said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Craig said...

Without Sartre (and the G.I. Bill) existentialism never would have happened.

Kirby Olson said...

I don't know what I think about existentialism. It's quite Marxist. Sartre was extremely Marxist. He backed Castro and he backed Stalin. His wife found much to admire in Mao's China during the Cultural Revolution.

I basically see that duo as extremely impaired, and not worth much.

Many assume that it's either the rich or the poor or some class you're on the side of.

I think that it's possible for at least some of us to think of the overall good of the country, although I know that for a great number it isn't. They can only sense their own advantage and fight for it like monkeys.

I don't think we're monkeys.

We have something extra, although I realize that most people, even most philosophers aren't capable of entering that realm. I don't know why that is the case.

There are so many people who drag their knuckles, and think a discussion is just a fight, instead of a prolonged rumination over what's best for the country and the world.

I very much wish we could transcend the us vs. them of the Marxists and their epigones such as Sartre and SdB.

When the Allies entered Paris in 1945 most of the opposition had been shot. One of the only remaining opposition groups were the communists because they already had their organizations before the Nazis ever came.

So naturally after the Nazis left they were among the first to surge back into prominence in France. And yet France has remained somewhat free of their influence overall. The young of course have been subjected to the Marxist viewpoint.

But there are still many remnants of other belief systems, especially among the Jews who weren't killed in WWII. Raymond Aron for instance has been a powerful foil against Marxism. Now its Levy and Finkelfraut and other Jews who have a taproot back into Jerusalem and into a far finer universalism.

The French have never completely given in to Marxist demands for uniformity of thought or for union organization with none outside the unions.

The French notion of liberty has held, and it is not a Marxist notion. It is not a Lockean notion. It is Comtean, some say, and must come via many others, as well. Bits and pieces of Voltaire circulate.

There is still a lot of Catholicism in France, and in the north, Protestantism. There are huge pockets of Jews. And now, Muslims (although the Muslims do not have intellectuals at the highest levels, as far as I know -- they are mostly poor migrant workers).

People who are capable of thinking of the big plan ahead are quite rare. It requires an elaborate education on a foundation that is very solid. It's something that maybe only one in ten thousand can manage at the highest level.

But everyone should try to do some of it! It's the task of a citizen!

but it requires study and listening. Good ideas are not born overnight. They are only born over centuries, and through intense and prolonged thought between civilized and respectful conversants. It's a very very rare thing to have that.

Think of our controversy over abortion, and gay marriage, and other hot topics. The arguments rarely go beyond "I'm right and you're wrong, because I am good and you are bad."

Can we rise above that, as angels rise above our cities?

some can. I don't think the existentialists could.

stu said...

Kirby,

I've never bought a piece of art, and probably never will.

I find this utterly amazing. A poet who doesn't buy art?!

I go to art fairs when they're convenient (usually a couple times a year), and while I don't always buy things, I often have. Indeed, I can go one rather striking step further: I've had an original work of art commissioned for me by my colleagues, which I'm very pleased to have hanging in my office at work.

I find it extremely peculiar that you'd draw such a hard line between the verbal and visual arts. To me, the boundary is quite permeable, and I'll illustrate this via a surrealistic classic: Magritte's “The Treachery of Images.” Of course, posters are a much more pervasive context in which visual and verbal arts intertwine, e.g., Gui Borchert's “Words of Change.”

Visual arts can communicate, and can change the world, no less that the written word. Indeed, I'll note in passing that it is your practice to accompany your blog posts with a image that strikes you as appropriate. So you see the utility of visual art, but not it's value.

I don't think we're monkeys.

Of course we aren't monkeys, any more than birds are dinosaurs. But I'd recommend against arguing either point with a cladistic taxonomist.

Kirby Olson said...

I may not see its value but I do see its price, which is generally speaking more than I can afford. I tend to see money as freedom, and don't want to give an artist freedom when it could buy more freedom for me. I'd prefer the freedom than to be imprisoned by an image.

J said...

Heidegger wasn't Sartre, and Camus wasn't Sartre--existentialists were not all marxist.

Existos like beatnix did move product--films, books, etc-- for a while, though Kirby--there was some market value to it. Put on a beret, swill espresso, smoke a gaulois, mumble things about Hegel. Ca-ching

Dim Lamp said...

Kirby,

Here's a little art [literature actually] that will do your soul good, it's a glimpse into Garrison Keillor's new book: "A Christmas Blizzard," reviewed, ironically, on a Catholic blog: A Christmas Blizzard

Kirby Olson said...

Dim Lamp, I don't normally like Keillor, but I really liked this. Thanks for sending it.

J -- enjoyed your take. Hipness moves funds for certain. Bob Dylan moved mountains of moolah in his day with his various schticks. I liked the Christian period the best. Nobody else did much, so he went back to mumbling stuff about hope and change.

You're gonna have to serve somebody.

J said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kirby Olson said...

The extreme separation of the arts and Protestantism has been a disaster for both. Most art that I look at looks to me either empty or driven by the need to seem crazy and avant-garde. I still see Christ as the ultimate avatar of the avant-garde, and think that the arts should ally themselves with a church, and the churches should reach out to the arts, so that there is an aesthetic sense. The divorce that took place between the two institutions has seriously weakened both of them.

Kirby Olson said...

I don't know if something similar has happened within the Hindu and Buddhist traditions. The Buddhist sand paintings are often magnificent (Tibetan sand paintings). I love that stuff. Islamic mosques are often fantastic from the visual viewpoint. There have been a few Catholic painters such as Rouault. But we mostly have complete jerks in the arts such as Picasso and Pollock -- monstrous morons who are completely out of whack, and who are just endless on the take. I can't bear to read anything about such folks. They just make me sick.

Rouault is a lot more preferable to me.

The only Lutheran painters I think of as having tremendous quality were people like Stopskopf (spelling?). When I go to Christian art fairs I am usually quite sickened by the quality.

There is a tiny vein of Lutheran poetry (there was an anthology a few years back called Simul).

I don't think Lutheran artists should be beholden to merely illustrating Lutheran theology. I don't think Lutheran theologians should demand that. Luther himself said that art and science should be utterly independent of theology.

The writers of the Bible were not averse to aesthetic qualities. St. Paul was a prose poet of the highest order. Revelation has fantastic passages that are at least as hot as anything in contemporary literature. The psalms are just astounding in places. Ezekiel has peculiar and hilarious passages. One of the only very powerful fine artists that has worked in a Biblical mode is Bob Dylan. His album Slow Train somehow managed to blend acid rock, a touch of country, and the Bible. Within surrealism itself in France a lot of the greatest lyrics and novels contain strong references to the Bible.

Dali has a Christian side that came to the fore later on.

Unfortunately a lot of our best art is completely empty of any spiritual values. L'Origine du Monde is just crazy. Of course in the beginning was God.

Kirby Olson said...

Magritte's work has always frankly struck me as a set of jokes that I've never completely accepted. The mazes that Escher built are stupendous in their own way but in another way are Towers of Babel. I don't find anything beautiful or enduring in them althought they are well done. I'm always looking for the infinite within the finite (kairos) when I am looking at art, but I also want the imagery to be fresh and compelling and fascinating.

Craig said...

Don't think Tristan and Isolde recovered its cost of production at the box office, but James Franco seemed to me quite credible as Tristan. In other news from Hollywood, Cheetah, the chimp from the Tarzan movies, has passed away in Florida at age 80. I wouldn't be surprised to see him honored at this years Oscars. Perhaps Franco will get a chance to redeem himself after last year's debacle as co-host.

J said...

That one old german artiste-- a friend of Luther hisself-- who did the pictures of the Great Whore...er, delivering the anti-christ Pope....voonderbar. Isn't that the mensch who did the portrait of Luther you have up here?

Actually in terms of Ahhht at times the pinche aleman (as..latins say) at times win the chessmatch. Bach, for one.

Craig said...

Sartre refused to accept his Nobel Prize for Literature, so they gave it to Camus who gladly accepted it.

Kirby Olson said...

The painting of Luther is by Lucas Cranach the Elder. Luther and Cranach were close friends. Another close friend of Luther's was Albrecht Durer. Durer was nominally a Catholic, but quite close to the Reformation. There were many good painters associated with the Reformation and with the Counter Reformation. Here is a brief sketch of some of the highlights:

http://cla.calpoly.edu/~lcall/111/week_one.html

There are almost no major artists now illustrating important Christian events. Christianity is growing all over the world. In India the state of Kerala is a majority Christian state (it's the only state in India that is functioning at almost western levels). In Africa Christianity is growing all over the sub-Saharan region. In Asia it is growing like wildfire especially in Red China, and in Vietnam. I suspect that if North Korea has any kind of opening, Christianity will shoot in there and completely dominate within two years if left unchecked.

They say that a picture is worth a thousand words. Maybe more. I wish there more paintings of Christian events. Andy Warhol tried to revive Christian painting at the end of his life, but they were mostly revivals of episodes such as the Last Supper, done in a kind of vaguely Pop style.

Kirby Olson said...

Warhol was a quietly practicing Catholic most of his life.

Kirby Olson said...

J. I didn't get your joke about the pinch aleman. Could you explain it?

Kirby Olson said...

Sartre must have had enough money to be able to turn it down. Camus must have had less. I was never very interested in either one. Camus has an essay on the value of Christianity which I appreciated at one time. He's not a Christian, but he said if you want people to stand up for rights and principles, then do not push down the Christians. They have a vast and great heritage, and know what's worth standing up for. I don't know if there are any similar passages in Sartre. Sartre is smart, but not wise.

J said...

Aleman is spanish for German. French allemagne, right. IIRC Caesar calls the germans (probably like bavarians) something like that in Latin.

Pinche is mex. slang for something like "stinkin'". I wager Caesar and his gang thought so too a few times, meeting the goths in their bear skins, swinging maces, etc.

Craig said...

Sartre didn't grow up Jewish in Algeria while pretending to be Catholic and apparently that's what Cixous and Derrida had in common. Cixous wrote her dissertation on Joyce. They had more in common with Camus than with Sartre, but Camus died young. Didn't Pynchon's V feature a nun who was secretly Jewish?

J said...

"Almain" was used for germans in Anglo until at least Sschackspeare's time: Iago: I learned it in England, where, indeed, they are most potent in potting: your Dane, your German, and your swag-bellied Hollander—Drink, ho!—are nothing to your English. [...] Why, he drinks you, with facility, your Dane dead drunk; he sweats not to overthrow your Almain; he gives your Hollander a vomit, ere the next pottle can be filled.

However the "almain" like aleman/alemanii was the southern sort IMO, germans referring to the entire country (made more problematic by the "Deutsch" /goth word). Or something of the sort. Trying to recall's Pynchon's cartoon characters gives a headache, ere the next pottle may be filled.

Stephen Baraban said...

Re/ the Nobel Prize in literature: It's NOT that Camus won it because Sartre turned his down. Camus won his in 1957; then Sartre was chosen in 1964 & turned it down--except that the award is irrevocable and so he is still listed as the winner for that year though he didn't take the money.

Re/ existentialism--it's certainly not inherently Marxist. Besides non-Marxist atheist Camus, there have been religious existentialists; the name I can recall is Gabriel Marcel.

Kirby Olson said...

When we think of most movements on the left we think of Marxism. However, there was or still is a tiny Christian left, and some other kinds of left. But it's predominantly Marxist.

Most of the Democratic party uses Marxist ideas at one point or another to make their claims for fairness. They never cite Marx directly, but that's where their ideas are often coming from, or at least their ideas are indistinguishable from Marxist ideas.

One thing I could say about the Republicans on the other hand: they are definitely not Marxists.

Craig said...

One source of disagreement between Sartre and Camus was Algerian independence. Sartre favored it as a Marxist cause. Camus, Cixous and Derrida, all natives of Algeria, apparently opposed it. Camus opposed the death penalty for things like treason in the French colony.

Kirby Olson said...

Camus reminds me vaguely of Orwell. Did they know one another? I always despised Sartre and SdB. I just hated them with my life from the moment I first became acquainted with them. They epitomize the trust-fund Marxists whose guts make mine wiggle like worms.

jh said...

yes gabriel marcel was an existentialist
paul ricouer used existentialist structures to work out his theorems and sentences
max picard used existentialism as his foundation
but he aimed everything at the possibility of faith

hell
i'm an existentialist
of a moderate epicurean ilk

yet the basic problem is
i do believe that essencce precedes existense
being presumes form

there is knowledge that is understood to be
the knowledge of faith and it is human knowledge and it is useful and important human knowledge

the first two primal cognitive intuitions are
it is
and it is something

amen

jh

J said...

Most euro existo-writing like "The Stranger" bores the ph*ck out of me. "The Maltese Falcon" rather superior, even philosophastically speaking.

However Camus' story "The Guest" which I read a few years ago is quite intense and directly related to the Algerian situation (and he doesn't exactly approve of the colonialists, in the story at least). AC understood the predicament of no man's land.

G. M. Palmer said...

Haven't read the comments yet--just the article--but the economics of poetry is something I've studied quite a bit (c.f. my blog).

In 2007 (the last year for which I have numbers) there were about 3,000,000 poetry books sold in the US (n.b.: this number does NOT include copies of books like In to the Dust or Crank which are YA verse novels--dismissed as poetry by the establishment these nevertheless sell very well; I also don't know if the numbers include Seuss and Silverstein, whose lucrative opi of work is largely poetry). I like to say that Harry Potter 7 outsold books of poetry in the US in the first 6 hours it was published.

The entirety of sold books in the US is about 3 billion.

Clearly this is a problem. Poetry ought not to be 0.1% of the market.

Understanding that it is however, instantly puts into perspective why publishers don't give to figs about poetry--it's a money hole. Billy Collins (who Kirby referenced) has sold about 250,000 books in toto--that's about $500,000-$1,000,000 depending on his sales figures--over a 40 year lifetime career that's not a living.

However, poets like Eliot and Frost and Dylan--and moreso like Longfellow and Tennyson sold incredibly more books (at least proportionally) and had a vastly deeper market penetration.

Why?

Part of the problem is the educational system. It is possible, even popular, to get a degree in English without taking a SINGLE course in Poetry. There are English Ph.Ds who "don't do" poetry. This is inane.

The problem, of course is that these folks with English degrees are teaching English "literature" to Middle and High-School students. The teachers have no understanding of or appreciation for poetry (like most of my colleagues) and so it is either not taught or taught poorly.

Elementary teachers teach poetry to some degree (Silverstein, Seuss, et al) or cover Haiku, Cinquains, etc. but don't teach Seuss or Silverstein AS poetry and never get deeper than a bad "MOTHER" acrostic. One would hope that there could be a transition in 6th grade between light verse elementary poetry and deeper, more meaningful stuff--starting with an examination of the poetic devices in childhood poetry--but this doesn't happen.

So poetry, which is naturally hard to read because it is a context-free medium (i.e. there's no space for explanatory material as there is in prose), has no grounding in education. It must be learned at home or autodidactically--which has its own set of problems.

The second, equally great, problem is that of poetry itself. As long as lyric, self-obsessed poetry continues to be the default mode of a twisted homage to Wordsworth and Keats, people will continue to be unmoved by it. Novels aren't widely and lovingly read because they're omphaloskeptic and obscure but because they tell great--or fascinating--stories. Great novels are also well-written.

Poetry should do the same--it was telling stories before novels existed. Giving up on that is a sin for which we will not be forgiven.

G. M. Palmer said...

I will say I also find Magritte unfulfilling. I don't so much buy art as I am friends with artists who give me art.

You folks should stop talking about Psalters and Camels and start talking about poetry.

J said...

jh: i do believe that essencce precedes existense
being presumes form


Au kuntraire! existentialism reverses that. in a sense yr version might work re the quaint Aristotelian form--roses will be roses, jaguars, jags (excepting the rare mutation), yet per humans...someone born in Algeria or any 3rd world country is going to be confronting quite different situations than those born in Allenstown or Anaheim, etc.
Hegelian historicism figured in exist. thinking (even Heidegger's obscure form)--and the dialectic-- diddnt it? It was not directly from Rome.

J said...

KO: Since at times you seem to entertain the catholic viewpoint, perhaps check out Pope Benedict's recent critical pronouncements on western capitalism. Some observers thought that Benny seemed to be supporting the Occupy movement.

The Pope

Kirby Olson said...

I haven't heard anything about Pope Benedict supporting OWS. Could you provide a direct link of any kind, J? I Wiki'd him, and came across this sentence:

"He condemned the prevalent economic system "where the pernicious effects of sin are evident," and called on people to rediscover ethics in business and economic relations."

I am not sure that ethics have been totally thrown out the window in business and economic relations. When I go to most companies I'm quite happy with the interactions whether it's Wal-Mart where the customer is always right, or Kost Tires, which provides high quality tires and good brake alignments for minimal prices, or whether it's Amazon.com which always seems to deliver the books on time, or what have you. I broke down near Firestone a few years ago and they repaired a pipe beneath the car and charged me 87 cents.

Small businesses on the other hand are often unethical or I seem to think that they bend the rules more often than massive corporate chains.

Benedict has also spoken against Liberation Theology and cracked down on it when he was a cardinal. So, he's not a Marxist. Exactly what he means by "ethics" may lend itself to the kind of spurious sophistry of the OWS movement, which I find closer to Zizek's sophisticated relativistic Marxism (Zizek thinks it's a given that human should have sex with animals). Benedict is far more circumspect about our relationships with the animal world. Benedict is not a relativist and thinks there are enduring truths that we ought to discover and apply.

He's also said some curious things about the Catholic church being the only true church. This is something that JH would probably countenance and maybe JADL as well. I wouldn't know. I was in St. Patrick's Cathedral last night in NYC. It's a nice place, but it seems to me that God can also be found in small churches north of the Arctic Circle in Finland which operate under the Lutheran nomiker.

I was slightly nonplussed by the 2 dollar charge to light a candle at St. Pat's.

At an Indian restaurant we spoke with the waitress who was a Hindu. She said that she felt that underneath all religions is the one true God.

Benedict has also spoken against Islam, and how its one major innovation has been to force belief through bloodshed, and to maintain it through decapitation of apostates.

Has he spoken specifically on art?

Kirby Olson said...

I haven't heard anything about Pope Benedict supporting OWS. Could you provide a direct link of any kind, J? I Wiki'd him, and came across this sentence:

"He condemned the prevalent economic system "where the pernicious effects of sin are evident," and called on people to rediscover ethics in business and economic relations."

I am not sure that ethics have been totally thrown out the window in business and economic relations. When I go to most companies I'm quite happy with the interactions whether it's Wal-Mart where the customer is always right, or Kost Tires, which provides high quality tires and good brake alignments for minimal prices, or whether it's Amazon.com which always seems to deliver the books on time, or what have you. I broke down near Firestone a few years ago and they repaired a pipe beneath the car and charged me 87 cents.

Small businesses on the other hand are often unethical or I seem to think that they bend the rules more often than massive corporate chains.

Benedict has also spoken against Liberation Theology and cracked down on it when he was a cardinal. So, he's not a Marxist. Exactly what he means by "ethics" may lend itself to the kind of spurious sophistry of the OWS movement, which I find closer to Zizek's sophisticated relativistic Marxism (Zizek thinks it's a given that human should have sex with animals). Benedict is far more circumspect about our relationships with the animal world. Benedict is not a relativist and thinks there are enduring truths that we ought to discover and apply.

He's also said some curious things about the Catholic church being the only true church. This is something that JH would probably countenance and maybe JADL as well. I wouldn't know. I was in St. Patrick's Cathedral last night in NYC. It's a nice place, but it seems to me that God can also be found in small churches north of the Arctic Circle in Finland which operate under the Lutheran nomiker.

I was slightly nonplussed by the 2 dollar charge to light a candle at St. Pat's.

At an Indian restaurant we spoke with the waitress who was a Hindu. She said that she felt that underneath all religions is the one true God.

Benedict has also spoken against Islam, and how its one major innovation has been to force belief through bloodshed, and to maintain it through decapitation of apostates.

Has he spoken specifically on art?

J said...

Did you check out the link, KO?

The Pope's a collectivist, aka stinkin' Red. Keep the croppies down, lads, keep the croppies down

(serio--not quite commie, but rather critical of laissez faire. Google 'er)

J said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kirby Olson said...

Well, I did read it (didn't see it at first). You have to remember the source: NPR, a shill for the left. Note he never quotes Benedict calling for redistribution of wealth, he only says that there should be better ethics.

At any rate, if the Pope wants to redistribute the Vatican's wealth, that's fine with me.

God knows they have enough of it.

Kirby Olson said...

It's important to watch the shell game carefully. Benedict has been strongly against liberation theology, and although he wants ethics (who doesn't?) he's not about redistribution. Find a single sentence that you can actually quote that says he does. The NPR contributor is just using the Pope as a sock puppet. The Vatican needs all the money it can get to pay off the child abuse scandals. However, if they want to ship me a Caravaggio or two, I won't turn them down.

J said...

The article suggests Bene. might be an ally of the OWS. I don't think they support him, or the RCC, or OWS. Anyway NPR is corporate liberal, KO, not that "leftist" (the 20 minutes listened to per annum sound as such). At times they sound fairly conservative (finance/business advice, etc).

Also check out JPII's pronouncements contra-BushCo when Dubya's gang decided to go on the war path. Somewhat profound IMO. Ie, one shouldn't mistake the Roody Guilianis and Christies for the authentic Iglesia (tho most Mericans do, even ones who take the Mass).

Kirby Olson said...

J I'm glad to hear your nascent Catholicism being reawakened to some degree. I love the Catholic church, and I hiope that they can clean their house of molesters and get back to doing the fine work they've done for centuries in terms of keeping God's house on earth.

The five centuries Lutherans fought with the Catholics over policy matters seems to have been a good thing for both. We need to close ranks and think of how to create a better world together in light of the onslaught of the secularists and the resurgence of 666 (Obama is no Nero, but what's waiting in the wings?).

J said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
J said...

Bene.'s Christmas message did call for a re-distribution of wealth: VATICAN CITY: Noting a "rising sense of frustration" at the worldwide economic recession, Pope Benedict XVI said that a more just and peaceful world requires "adequate mechanisms for the redistribution of wealth."

Any mutha-f-er who wears a brim like that has gotta have some juice and a stable with some talent.

Kirby Olson said...

Well, he could always start it by giving away the Vatican's wealth and taking a personal vow of poverty. Obama could do something similar, for all I'm concerned. If he wants to live in a small shack in Alabama, so that others could have more, that's fine by me. But they have to put their money where their mouth is.

Remember too this is Huffpo.


I am not at all certain of the quote and he's rather non-specific about the "mechanism" for redistributing wealth. He might just mean that the poor might be able to work their way up, and the rich might fall flat on their face, as per Adam Smith and Hayek. He might mean that Obama can tax ev eryone at 100% and then redistribute the money to people he's certain will vote for him.

It was kind of vague.

Brett said...

Two things.

1) RE: corporations vs. small business, business ethics, etc.

When I was in India (spent a lot of time in Kerala, in fact, which is actually a Marxist state, or at least tries to be), I went to a small little shop above a small little shop up in the mountains near Dharamsala, where exiled Tibetans and the Dalai Lama hang out. Anyhooch, while in this small little shop that sold small little papier mache ornaments and the like, the small little shop owner asked if I was from America - I said yes. Then he asked if I knew of Colorado - I said yes. Then he asked if I knew of Estes Park - I said yes -- I've worked in Estes Park for a decade. My grandparents lived there. It's basically my second home.

Then the small little shop owner told me about how there was a buyer from a small little paper / coffee shop in Estes Park who stiffed him for something like 60,000 Rupees after putting a downpayment on a bunch of little papier mache ornaments.

I tried to get my Aunt to confront the shopowners in Estes, but alack, that particular buyer was gone (supposedly).

Small businesses can be just as evil as big ones, though of course their influence is smaller...

So when I was in Estes Park, I had to buy a Greeting Card - I couldn't feel right about going to the small independent paper/coffee shop that stole from poor Tibetans in India, so I had to go to the Safeway.

2) RE: poetry, story, nobody reads it.

The funny thing about contemporary poetry is that it pretends to eschew story - but the thing is, if you look at someone like Ron Silliman, you realize something: While there is a lack of story WITHIN the poetry, the poem itself is part of a broader story that exists outside of the context of the work itself.

So the story is about SOQ vs. Post-Avant. To appreciate the art, you have to know about and care about and have a certain view on the conflicts in poetic theory.

This is part of the reason no one reads poetry - The story isn't Within the art itself, so if you approach it without the very specialized context, it's meaningless.

I don't even think Silliman realizes this misplaced yearning for story in his own approach - For a while there, I started to wonder why I found his writing About poetry more interesting than his poetry - why, in general, reading About contemporary poetry is much more engaging than reading contemporary poetry... And then I realized it's because in the writings About poetry, you have a story - groups with conflicting goals, emotional attachments, personalities, etc. - The poems themselves tend to lack story and emotion.

Silliman himself has specifically denounced emotion and story in poetry, which seems like the most ill-thought-out approach possible.

He said that poetry should just give up on narrative - movies and novels are inherently better at it. Maybe that's true.

Maybe it isn't.

Brett said...

Kirbster, this is relevant to your interests:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e02-die-hippie-die

Kirby Olson said...

Brett, what you wrote about stories reminded me of Kerouac's interview in Paris Review when he said this about haiku: "KEROUAC:

Haiku? You want to hear haiku? You see you got to compress into three short lines a great big story."

One of his haiku tells the entire story of Rabbit, Run (Updike) in three lines. It's something like

Old football hero
In business suit
Walks home across the gridiron

I wish I could see that one again. It was really neat how he compressed all of Rabbit, Run into three lines and made it even better than Updike.

Kirby Olson said...

I loved, too, how you said so much about the Language Poets. I guess if you know some of the gossip about them you can piece together a story. If Kerouac can get a whole world into three lines, I think poetry still works. We have just run out of poets, perhaps.

Kirby Olson said...

Old football hero
In business suit
Walks across the gridiron


(It's better without the word home in it.)

Craig said...

Better symmetry with the second line last.

Craig said...

Xmas in Bali
Ex KGB wives in thongs
On a mile long beach

G. M. Palmer said...

We've not run out of poets. I'm around.

The book's coming soon!

J said...

Ti Jean had it--why f*ck around with some long sludgy narrative ala Updike when a haiku or some hepcat free verse will do?? The bleatnik manifesto. And when feeling especially creative just continue the rant for a few hundred pages ala Ron-chow (beef-soy product by Silliman).

When someone says "poetry" I reach for my revolver--to be precise, semi-auto .45.

 
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