
Santorum is sinking again in the polls after Romney put up 4 million dollars worth of negative ads. Suddenly Santorum is the candidate who can't think straight. He wants his own kids to have college educations, but not ours. He wants to use birth control, but he doesn't want the rest of us to do it.
But the MSM always reduces GOP contenders to a sound bite. Herman Cain (remember him?) was the 9-9-9 fella, who harassed women. Bachman had funny hair, and it was unclear who was the boss in her house: her or her husband. Gingrich is the guy who asked his ex-wife for an open marriage while already acting as if she was ok with it.
Romney wrecks businesses and throws people out of work, but has profited immensely from it. Paul is elderly. Who's left? Oh, yes, back to Rick Santorum.
Santorum's book shows that he's a deeper and wider thinker than the MSM casts him, or than Romney casts him, but I'm only partially through his book. It Takes A Family: Conservatism and the Common Good opens with four chapters about the family as the fundamental unit of American society. Therefore, to get ahead, you need a solid family. Some ethnic groups and religious groups have this, and some don't. Santorum should have done a comparative study but he didn't. Asian Americans have the lowest divorce rates (2% have no father in the family), while African Americans have the highest (81% have no father in the family). White Americans are at about 37% (fatherless) and rising. Some groups are more likely to fit into these statistics than others. Which denominations are the least likely to be fatherless? Are the secularists (they only make up 3% of Americans) more likely to have solid families or not?
For the most part I bought Santorum's initial foray into sociology although it could use a lot of fine tuning. But then he suddenly has a chapter on "social capital" and argues that this is what distinguished America from Europe and other places. In America, we raise barns together. We work together. You can trust the mailman. You can trust the grocer. You can trust the shoe repairman. But he argues the inner city people have the lowest sense of "social capital" insofar as no one there can trust the others. But, he doesn't link this to the breakdown in families in the inner cities. Why not? His book seems jumbled. If the through thread is families, he should make families the basis of "social capital," but suddenly he turns to "society" as the answer.
Santorum discusses a book called "Bowling Alone," and says that in the 1950s there were giant bowling leagues in which many people participated, but now many people prefer to go bowling alone. This book was written by a Harvard sociology professor named Robert Putnam. Bowling leagues required all the members to show up every week. That requires a commitment and a sense of togetherness which has been lost, Santorum says. So, outside the family there were other links, links between families, that brought them together.
"In other words, society isn't an unconnected pile of sand" (55), Santorum writes.
Santorum cites Tocqueville and two other scholars -- economist Wilhelm Ropke, and sociologist Robert Nisbet, who wrote "in the spirit of Tocqueville" (55).
Meanwhile, and on a completely different trajectory, I'm reading a massive biography of surrealist Philippe Soupault (Flammarion, 2010) by a French scholar named Beatrice Mousli, who teaches at University of Southern California. The book is 450 pages in length and I'm on p. 370. Born in 1897, and living until 1990, Soupault's life spanned two world wars and several major art movements. He was one of three principle founders of the surrealist movement, and it was his money that bankrolled their initial journals and helped them all to survive in their fledgling years. Soupault's family was a major bourgeois family headquartered just south of Paris in Chaville. His uncle was Louis Renault who started the famous automobile company. His father was a famous doctor. In the summers, Soupault visited the Normandy coast and stayed in the same hotel where Marcel Proust stayed. His family ran printing businesses in Paris, and one of his brothers became an important lawyer, and another an important businessman. Soupault himself had important positions -- he ran a fleet of petroleum ships while still in his twenties, had important positions in publishing, in radio, and later at UNESCO. His several wives were important journalists from wealthy families.
Although Soupault was a serial adulterer with children from several marriages he was born into a powerful network. In the long run, this social capital catapulted him to the top of the Parisian literary pyramid where he remained for most of his ninety plus years. He knew Andre Gide, Andre Breton, Marcel Proust, Guillaume Apollinaire, and almost everyone else of importance from the time he was eighteen. As a child he spent time in London and in Germany which improved his language skills.
Soupault's family was a powerful launching pad for him.
When we return to American politics, we can see that Mitt Romney also had a powerful family which has launched him into the uppermost sphere of power. Santorum has less of this, but he has a tightly knit family, and this may be enough to propel him to the top as well. Plus, they both have significant churches behind them.
Barack Obama's father was a fly-by-night serial adulterer from Kenya who he only met once. His mother was a flibbertigibbet who wandered around the world from one multicultural husband to the next leaving her child with her parents. Obama denounced the grandmother as a racist in a famous news conference. But Obama's power came through his academic networks in Harvard and Chicago, and from his political pull in the latter town, and through groups such as ACORN who pushed his candidacy. Plus, he appears to have a tightly knit family of his own. His wife appears to come from a relatively stable family, and they attended a powerful church -- but Obama denounced the church's pastor and now wants nothing to do with him, since he sees him now as a political liability.
If family is the basis of "social capital" and American "social capital" is minted in that institution, how can this framework be fortified? Hillary looked to Africa and to the notion that "It Takes a Village," but what if it's family instead, and it's actually ASIA that we should look to, rather than Africa, for the source of our model? America is individual (the pursuit of happiness is part of our basic political DNA -- which seems to indicate an almost solipsistic pursuit). But what if true happiness can only be found in families? Or through church?
What if the real basis of strength is found neither in the individual nor in the nation, but in the family? Or through the church, founded on a deep belief in God?
The surrealist Philippe Soupault was in Tunis in WWII where he was imprisoned for high treason after the Vichy Government deemed his radio emissions (or was it his friendship with resistance members -- it was never clarified) guilty of high treason. He spent six months in prison, while his extensive network of friends and family worked to get him out. He finally did get out, and took a bus to Algeria (with his wife of the moment) where the allies had already established a beachhead (1943). From there he got to America (Roosevelt read French and had memorized several of Soupault's poems). Later, one of Soupault's poems was dropped from airplanes over France from which his children learned that he had survived the war thus far). Soupault had faith that the Americans would win because of the essential feature of American life: "pragmatisme" (he had travelled extensively in America as a correspondent in the 1930s, and had also travelled in Russia and Germany). Is it in fact "pragmatism" that is the great American strength, or is it faith? Tocqueville said it was faith.
So, what is it that drove America to the top of the world in the first half of the 20th century? Was it pragmatism? Was it our social networking? Was it the importance of family? Was it faith? Many joke about Norman Rockwell, but whatever it was, it is not too far from Rockwell. Rockwell's paintings describe a regional America united by faith and family. Grant Wood's paintings (laughed at by the secularists and their powerful media) describe a similar America. Rural, deeply versed in faith, and meaningful. Corny, perhaps, but strong. The same media laughs at Rick Santorum as if he's a stain on their abstractions. Meanwhile, from the surrealists and the abstract expressionists a new and vertiginous art has arisen that doesn't reference landscape, church, family or anything but a kind of explosion as if a plane has smashed into the American church and family and landscape and obliterated it and this art is held up as something we should revere as if it's Christ Himself on the cross. The artists that painted these pictures were generally lost and barbaric -- Pollock a drunken bum who dies in a car crash, Picasso a monster who was hated by almost everyone who knew him well. Rockwell and Wood on the other hand were well-liked, and decent. There was a kind of selfless neighborliness which was depicted in Rockwell and Wood and other regionalists such as Thomas Hart Benton that is now being lost. People more and more are out for themselves and expecting the government to help them (food stamps are now given to one out of five Americans): we now have abstractions such as the village or the government that can't be seen that are supposed to help us even if they don't love us. To hell with Mom and Dad. Let's kill the baby, as it eats up our resources. Let's sell the baby. Let's murder the baby, in fact, and throw it under the bus, and live for today!
Against this notion, Santorum argues that we need to revive and coddle the American family (which he defines as a mother and father and their babies).
Soupault felt that America would defeat Germany. Why couldn't France? France was once an important military nation. They held their own in WWI. But they were no match for Germany in WWII, or Algeria, or the Vietnamese. Now they can barely take on Greenpeace and when they do they have to blow up the Rainbow Warrior in the middle of the night in sovereign waters and create a scandal. They still produce products such as yogurt but they can't make decent cars or computers. They've become a museum. Soupault was himself not a religious man, and didn't believe in God although he had been raised a Catholic. Nazi Germany's leaders had also been raised as Catholics but they became pagans. Stalin was on his way to becoming a theologian when he opted for secular power and tried to destroy the churches. Meanwhile, there is plenty of faith in Islamic countries, but they are also basket cases. As countries go, they are among the worst. Faith is necessary but perhaps not sufficient. Weaknesses of the Islamic countries include an asymmetrical family system in which men can have many wives, and the wives are not generally speaking allowed to read or write or participate in the government or in electoral politics, much less in the economy. Moreover, there is no escape option. Islamics are locked in, and if they try to leave it's apostacy and they're killed.
Obama dimly senses that there is power in the Christian churches even though many are leaving. He wants to use them, or what's left of them, but he is not a deeply religious man. Romney is religious, although some say Mormonism is not Christian. Santorum is deeply religious. Bachman is deeply religious. Many Republicans are deeply Christian. It seems likely that religious faith is necessary to winning an American election even if the secular media laughs at the churches and spends air time day and night mocking them. But they haven't killed them, nor have they killed the family. Even God Himself is still alive. We don't like Gingrich or Cain because they were not faithful to their families. We expect Obama to at least pay lip service to his belief in God.
What IS the American dream? What is its foundation? I say it's LAND, FAMILY, and GOD. Santorum is close enough.
84 comments:
Kirby,
A few remarks.
But the MSM always reduces GOP contenders to a sound bite.
Nah. The MSM doesn't need to bother. The candidates do this to one another and to themselves.
Therefore, to get ahead, you need a solid family. Some ethnic groups and religious groups have this, and some don't.
So how do you deal with the apparent paradox that divorce rates tend to be lowest in the blue states, and highest in the red states? This is a serious question.
Here's an interesting article: U.S. divorce rates for various faith
groups, age groups, & geographic areas. You'll be glad to know that Lutherans and Catholics have the lowest reported rate of divorce among Christian denominations (21%). You'll be less glad to know that this is exactly the same rate ascribed to the atheist/agnostic community.
Oddly enough, I'll ascribe a somewhat similar cause, for what is otherwise an unusual grouping of Lutherans and Catholics with atheists and agnostics, and that is that both groups take marriage (relatively) seriously. Catholics lead the bunch in this regard, because they ascribe a sacramental nature to marriage (which given the Lutheran definition of sacrament as a form of grace mediated through physical means results in a certain ick reaction from our side). On the atheist/agnostic side, I'll argue that the sexual revolution is causative. You no longer need to be married to have sex, ergo, atheists and agnostics don't marry just to have sex. There is more to the bond than lust, and whatever that more is, clearly it matters.
And here I think is where our evangelical brothers face some challenges. They do have to get married to have sex. Well, we do too, but Lutherans tend to be compulsive rule followers, as well as generally sober people. There's not much that Lutherans do out of passion.
If the through thread is families, he should make families the basis of "social capital," but suddenly he turns to "society" as the answer.
Only you could describe Santorum in terms that make him sound communist.
Soupault felt that America would defeat Germany. Why couldn't France?
French society was stunned by the losses of the First World War, and was determined never to have to go through that again. So, they put their trust in "impregnable" static defenses, and they never believed that the Germans could get a mobile army through the Ardennes.
The interesting contrast here isn't so much with the Germans as it is with the British, who had much the same experience as the French, but seemed psychologically more prepared to take up the burdens of war again, and who never permitted themselves to be tied to static defenses.
Anyway, it shows a certain lack of historical understanding to ascribe the defeat of the Germans to the Americans. It's not that our role was unimportant, but it's that the hard and heavy work was mostly done by the Russians. This isn't a political fact, it's just a fact.
The Russians did do the heavy work, but we COULD have done it, had it needed to be done. We did do it in the first world war. And yes, there's something suspiciously communist about Santorum.
I can't write more now, but good
before you guys launch into ethnicide theories i just want to clarify by way of comparison
how do gregory corso
and
rick santorum match up as catholics
from of shopping cart lutheran point of view
this is important
i hope you guys can take it seriously
this isn't just some
odd wrestling hold
surprise cushion sort of intellectual inquiry
no
i'm serious
this catholic thing
so wierd
humopsychoe-enlightened godless secularists would say that life without god has made the human person more observable we''ve gotten down to layers of charecteristics and it turns out it's all about boob transplants and medicare
or pat buchanun
how about that guy for VP
i don't know kirby
it sort of scares me
i think the catholics should bow out of the public forum
it's time for us to return to fantastic liturgies and tables and tables and tables of real good food
american politics is a practicum in applied alsoholism
wait
did i just write that
forgive me
feelin a little chipper
midnight rider
jh
Kirby, a few remarks:
I think your MSM "sound-bite" remarks a little closer to the truth than stu would admit, and Santorum is no exception. The Ds know they can get away with tagging him as an American "Taliban man" pushing an American version of "Sharia law" (the lib-left kook and motor-mouth ex-Congressman, Alan Grayson, actually ran such absurd ads against his R opponent, now FL Congressman, Dan Webster in the 2010 election).
In general MSM mouthpieces apparently see their office in interviews as politely to query Ds, but as to argue with and debate Rs while searching out every opportunity to paste a "gotcha!" label on them, which in turn will be talked over for weeks and serve to distract attention from the Rs' real messages. We have our media people outside the MSM (save Fox), though we just lost the right journalist and muckraker Andrew Breitbart, whose premature death the lib-left is "high-fiving" over as we speak.
I'd agree with stu to a point about French losses in WWI (highest per capita among major European powers in the war, I think) sapping their will at the beginning of WWII, but there are other factors mitigating their defeat. British appeasement of Hitler's Germany (considerably larger and more industrialized than France) in the 1930s left the French without a strong ally, e.g., during the Rhineland crisis. And PM Baldwin seemed to think that the two totalitarian powers, Germany and the USSR, would eventually destroy each other without the intervention of Britain, etc.
Yes, the Russians took the brunt of the fight against Germany in the East, but stu well knows that we took the brunt of the fighting in the Pacific against Japan, a war the "neutral" Russians avoided completely until a few months before the end of the war when victory was assured. That's not to mention our war effort in N. Africa and the Italian invasion. I think our "historical understanding" should acknowledge those facts as well.
JADL,
Oh good. Let's argue military history!
In WWII, the early and formative judgment of the Anglo-Allies was that Germany was by far the more dangerous of the two major axis powers. I believe this was correct, even though the inevitable consequence was painful early losses in "our" Pacific theater. And a keystone of the anti-Nazi strategy was that it was essential to keep the Russians in the war. In this, Kirby's belief that we could have beat the Germans on our own was emphatically not shared by the US and British war planners at Argentia.
So let's start with a brief revisiting of the contributions of various parties to both theaters.
First, Europe.
To France's debt, we should add they had no strategic reserves, which meant that the German thrust through the Ardennes put its army between the French army and Paris. This was a first-class military blunder, not a product of war exhaustion, and it had far-reaching military consequences. For the French had effective armor, arguably better in quality (although inferior in quantity) to what the Germans were fielding at the time. And the French always had good artillery. Total collapse was not foreordained by relative industrial power nor by national morale.
The US's critical contributions in early years were (a) in lend-lease to the USSR, and (b) in keeping the sea-lanes open between North American and the UK. As regards lend lease, there's often a focus on contributions like the P-39, which was indeed an effective ground-support aircraft, but the critical contribution was arguably in Ford trucks. Logistics, as ever, rules. But logistics supports troops, and the overwhelming majority of the troops who fought and suffered against the Nazis were Russian. It is wishful thinking on Kirby's part to believe that the US would have been willing to accept losses of the magnitude that the Soviet Union incurred in fighting the Germans, and no reason to believe our losses in subduing them would have been less.
Second, the Pacific.
It's not even obvious that the US took the brunt of the fighting in the Pacific. Here in the US, when we think about the Pacific theater, our attention is almost exclusively focussed on Nimitz's Central Pacific theater, carrier battles, the island hopping campaign, and the submarine war. But what does this omit? (1) China, (2) the South West Pacific Theater, (3) the Philippines. So, (1) in China, you have not only the Chinese armies (mostly Nationalist but some Communist) directly engaging the Japanese Army, but also the strategic effect of the Soviet Army in pinning it. The Soviet Army didn't need to fight the Japanese Army to take it out of the war, just being there was enough. (2) Most people forget that Australian troops made up the bulk of MacArthur's command, and (3) most folks never knew of the Phillippine guerillas or their strategic effect to forget them. You'll certainly recall that the Australians were with us at Guadalcanal, and indeed they lost a heavy cruiser at Savo; and I'm sure you'll remember the important role played by UK armored-deck carriers late in the war.
It was never just about us.
Locke provided the rationale not only for winning WWII, but also the Cold War. Any country that does not protect the life, liberty, health and PROPERTY of its citizenry is a bad country and deserves to be overthrown. Any country that actively attacks these is evil, and must be destroyed. Therefore, not only did the Allies have a strategic and logistical battle, but also one that required a rationale. Locke provided this over the last seventy years.
The left has endlessly attacked it. The left joined with North Vietnam in the 70s. They stuck by Eastern Europe. There are even some leftists (former friends of mine) who think North Korea is fine. The left cannot distinguish between the Muslim countries and Israel. They see them as equal.
The right still uses Lockean criteria, which is why Fox is 100% on the side of Israel. MSNBC: not so much.
Obama really doesn't know the difference between one and the other. My guess is that he thinks of Israel as western, and he's against the west.
Obama was a friend with Edward Said, and he sees through that lense. He thinks of the Middle East as multicultural, and basically he's on the side of multiculturalism. McCain and Palin and Santorum and Bush have all been profoundly on the side of the Judeo-Christian ethos back to the time of Christ, and back to the time of Abraham. Obama doesn't know about that ethos. He's heard about it. Sometimes he pays lip service to it. But he doesn't understand it. What he gets is multiculturalism. He's on the side of the people with darker skin, and doesn't care about how or what they think. Obama is basically a racial thinker. Crowley-Gate was the first proof of this, but he's never really gone past it. It's his basic way of thinking. The whole left thinks like that: race and gender are their criteria.
The right think more in terms of philosophy. Someone like Condoleeza Rice is completely acceptable to the right. But no matter how left someone is, if they are blond and blue-eyed, the left looks down on them as sinister.
stu, while you're addressing me in much of your posting, you're really arguing with Kirby.
And you're simply ignoring the points I made about British pre-war appeasement of Hitler's Germany and the French sense of abandonment by the British during Hitler's pre-war rearmament programme in the 1930s. And, as I mentioned, Germany's clear advantage in population and industry. So it's not simply a matter of "military history" in terms of accounting for the factors in France's defeat. But perhaps the practise of "argu[ing] military history!" requires a martial spirit. . . .
Sure, the USSR bore the brunt of the Allied troop losses in Eastern Europe; we and the UK made a devil's bargain with Stalin to defeat a then-greater devil after Hitler broke the pact with the USSR. After Hitler and Stalin carved up Poland (the casus belli that began the war) and assigned Finland to the USSR's "sphere of influence" (you'll remember too that at that time our side supported the plucky Finns against the Reds' hordes). And I also think our N. Africa and Italian campaigns were certainly more than side-shows and diverted many German troops from the later Atlantic theatre to the Mediterranean theatre.
And too, I doubt whether you're prepared to argue that somehow our war effort was not crucial in defeating the Japanese Empire. Of course Germany was considered a greater threat to the US than Japan for a number of reasons. But if then, as you're prepared to argue a point in favour of the Russians in the case of our potential troop losses in Europe, why not in the case of our troops and sailors fighting in the Pacific as opposed to the virtually idle and "neutral" Russians in the Far East? As far as I know, our Pacific strategy was aimed at striking a death-blow as fast as feasible at Japan itself after securing a foothold on the Pacific islands, but perhaps you've more to add on that score.
Of course "[i]t was never just about us," but without us, I don't think victory in 1945 could have been possible, the USSR notwithstanding.
Yes, Kirby, and somehow Obama thinks Hawaii is part of Asia!
Much of the west has adopted a policy of appeasement toward all the newly militant groups: feminazis, gay militants, black militants, even Sharia Law has been said to be something we should allow into western societies: this by the Archbishop of Canterbury! Very rapidly the foundations of the west have been eroded under a rabid and bizarre assault of which Obama is the leading spearhead. He wants America to be overrun not just from the south, but from every other vantage point, as he doesn't believe in America. His wife wasn't even proud of America until BO got the nomination to finish America off. Obama is obviously building the deficit in order to push America off a financial cliff to oblivion which is where he thinks this country belongs.
In WWII, we fought with a good hard rationale. Parts of this country remember this rationale and are clinging to their guns and religion because they still believe in it.
Obama is doing his best to get the rest of the country to roll over and play dead. He wants to kill this country and everything it has ever stood for, and to replace it with a policy of appeasement toward all and sundry in the vain hope that he will thereby build world peace. It's ridiculous.
I still believe in America, and wish to God McCain had won the last election, or that Santorum would win the next one.
JADL,
while you're addressing me in much of your posting, you're really arguing with Kirby.
I'm really only arguing with Kirby over his fantasy that we could/would have gone it alone in WWII. I'm kind of hoping you and I can take this as a point of agreement. I don't expect that we'll have large differences over the facts of WW II military history.
And you're simply ignoring the points I made about British pre-war appeasement of Hitler's Germany and the French sense of abandonment by the British during Hitler's pre-war rearmament programme in the 1930s
There's no question that both Baldwin and Chamberlain were mislead by Hitler, and they followed a strategy of appeasement that was actively injurious to their nation's interest. I don't doubt that this made the French situation more difficult, but I don't think it was a war-loser for them.
And, as I mentioned, Germany's clear advantage in population and industry.
Sure, but France wasn't in it alone, and there's an advantage to playing defense, at least so long as you're competitive in mobility. Consider, e.g., the Civil War. The north had even greater advantages in population and industry over the south, yet it took four years to subdue the confederacy, not five weeks. If the French had fought half as well as the Confederates, the German experience of the Western front would have been very different.
Sure, the USSR bore the brunt of the Allied troop losses in Eastern Europe; we and the UK made a devil's bargain with Stalin to defeat a then-greater devil after Hitler broke the pact with the USSR...
All granted. Molotov-Ribbentrop was a crime against humanity. I'm not the least bit dewy-eyed regarding the USSR.
And I also think our N. Africa and Italian campaigns were certainly more than side-shows and diverted many German troops from the later Atlantic theatre to the Mediterranean theatre.
I'm skeptical. I think it is fairer to say that North Africa was a training ground for the US, and so crucial to our later efforts. This is where we learned to fight the Germans. Likewise, in the Italian campaign, we learned how to land and supply big armies in contact with big armies. But strategically, these were side shows, and I think it could be argued were much larger resource sinks (both absolutely and proportionately) for the Anglo-Allies than they were for the Axis. After all, there were really just two phases in the Mediterranean theater: the early phase during which the Axis had air superiority; and the late phase during which the Germans were able to make it a small-front war, fought on the defensive, with excellent artillery.
And too, I doubt whether you're prepared to argue that somehow our war effort was not crucial in defeating the Japanese Empire.
I have no intention of arguing such a point. My point was just that weren't even close to going it alone in the Pacific.
But if then, as you're prepared to argue a point in favour of the Russians in the case of our potential troop losses in Europe, why not in the case of our troops and sailors fighting in the Pacific as opposed to the virtually idle and "neutral" Russians in the Far East?
Our forces certainly were substantially engaged in both theaters, and I'm not about to diminish what they did or experienced. What I'm arguing against is an intellectual stance in which only the home-team and its experience and contributions matter. I've read a British history of the Normandy invasion (hopefully atypical) which referred to the USS Nevada as a heavy cruiser. US triumphalist theories of WWII, as Kirby proposed, are equally naĆve.
Of course "[i]t was never just about us," but without us, I don't think victory in 1945 could have been possible, the USSR notwithstanding.
You'll get no argument from me there, only the observation that the same could have been said about the USSR and the UK.
stu, thanks for your last post and the perceptive comments you made. I've no quarrels or really even quibbles with them.
My interests in modern history(though my history orals were in ancient, medieval, and intellectual history) were concentrated more on European political history, and I suppose that is reflected in my earlier comments. I know you're quite informed about military history and especially of WWII; I quite agree that the French seemed to try to fight WWII with WWI tactics, to their great cost.
I could be wrong but is it possible your, mine, and Kirby's fathers all fought in WWII? Mine was on the Yorktown (damaged but not lost as was the Lexington) at the Battle of the Coral Sea in '42, and he retired out of Vietnam in '64, seven years before I shipped over there.
Disclaimer of sorts:
On my mother's side my Ukranian great-grandparents and their children (though peasant-artisan stock) were loyal to the Czar, and a number of other relatives left behind later perished in the Stalinist-engineered famines in the 1930s. Needless to say, their hatred for Lenin, Stalin, and the Bolsheviks was palpable. At second-and third-hand, mine is not so palpable, but suffice it to say that I've seen no reason to break with family tradition. God knows that of the few relatives surviving in the Ukraine when Hitler invaded there, they may have desperately and mistakenly welcomed his armies as liberators.
JADL,
I could be wrong but is it possible your, mine, and Kirby's fathers all fought in WWII?
Wrong in my case, and I suspect Kirby's too. We're just a bit too young. My dad was drafted during the Korean War, despite being married, having a Ph.D., and was working in a critical war industry. He fought the war from Chicago, in the quartermaster corp, and made some significant contributions. My father-in-law was in the Navy, but on a DE in the Caribbean.
I don't know where my particular fascination with WWII history and Civil War history comes from, but it's there.
Mine was on the Yorktown (damaged but not lost as was the Lexington) at the Battle of the Coral Sea in '42, and he retired out of Vietnam in '64, seven years before I shipped over there.
That Yorktown was lost at Midway, a month later. I'm taking it that he was one of the few who served on her at Coral Sea but not at Midway, just because you didn't mention the later. He was Navy? We didn't have much but advisors in RVN in '64.
God knows that of the few relatives surviving in the Ukraine when Hitler invaded there, they may have desperately and mistakenly welcomed his armies as liberators.
One of the curious things about growing up Lutheran, and academic, is that my path crossed with lots of folks who fought in the war, on one side or another. Of course there were the guys who fought for our side: the 1st Marine "Guadalcanal" patch, or the "Big Red One." There were a few who fought for the Nazis. One of them, since naturalized as a US citizen, visited the Soviet Central Asian Republics as a tourist in the 80's. He told us of how the customs agent welcomed him "on his first trip to the Soviet Union." He'd had enough grace and good sense not to observe that it was his second. There's another guy who will tell you that "he's never fought for the army of a legitimate nation." He fought for the fascist Latvian Army. He'll tell you, "war's not hell, being liberated is hell." He saw the Soviets murder his father. Your remark about your Ukrainian relatives brought him to mind. There was another guy who was on Nimitz's staff, and I did not know this until after he'd died. My sister's father-in-law was in the third wave at Utah Beach, an 18 year old kid in an LCVP. He talked to me about it at the reception after his grand-daughter's baptism -- with the rest of his family listening very carefully, because they'd not heard the story before. I had a Professor who'd been a cryptographer for the Japanese.
They're mostly gone now, but not all. I've listened to them whenever I could, and valued what they've shared.
But I want to come around to a somewhat different point. These were all good men. Was there horrific evil in the world then? Damn straight. But even "bad" armies are often made up of mostly good men. This was true of the Germans, it was even true of the Japanese and the Soviets. It's easy enough to forget that they were fighting for their countries too, and not for the mad-men who ran them.
The current boundaries of Germany can easily be taken for granted. While the Rhine river in the west and the Oder-Neisse in the east have long contained the vast bulk of the German speaking population, it should be remembered that more than five million Germans lived east of the Oder in what was known as the Neumark at the outbreak of WWII. And that doesn't include the province of Silesia which represented a major portion of German access to coal and steel. Many of the towns and villages east of the Oder had dual personalities and distinct names in German and Polish, the use of which depended on whether the local authorities took their orders from Germany or Poland. The treaty that ended WWI ceded roughly a third of what is now Poland to Poland, an area that had been Prussia for at least two centuries and in some cases five or even eight centuries. Persuading the Vermacht to "invade" Poland required far less fiery, charismatic rhetoric from Hitler than is generally supposed. They were defending turf and countrymen on a frontier they viewed as of no valid concern to the English and the French.
Suppose for a moment that the English had gotten more involved than they did in the Spanish Civil War and that the outcome of that conflict had required England to roll back its recognition of Texas to the boundary in place prior to 1848. Would we truly expect the mayor of San Antonio to hand over the key to the city to a descendant of Maximilian on the advice of a British PM after a bad night at the poker table?
Why did it take an attack on Pearl Harbor to pull the U.S. into the conflict in Europe? Would the U.S. have declared war on Germany because U.S. forces at an air base in the Philippines were attacked by Japan? I can fly from Manila to Tokyo in three hours and I only cross one time zone. I need a full day and three different airplanes to get from Manila to New York and I don't need to change my watch because midnight in Manila is high noon on America's east coast.
stu, my father was one among the sailors who was transferred off the damaged Yorktown after Coral Sea. His service in Vietnam (1962-64) was assisting in setting up strategic hamlets with radio equipment for the ARVN. Although I was Army, I also served (1970) with a bush signal unit attached to the 1st Signal Brigade.
Thanks for the anecdotes. Your mention of the Latvian army vet brings to mind the novel "Coup de grace" (by the first French woman named to the Academy, Marguerite Yourcenar) set in one of the provinces near Riga in the early 1920s where a near-civil war raged between Estonian-Latvian nationalists and Bolsheviks, among others. There is an English translation and a film version of the novel.
Another French novel I read that deals with pre-WWII divided loyalties (when it seemed to many politically-minded young men in the 1930s that they had to choose between fascism and Bolshevism, for democracy was outmoded and decadent) is "Gilles" by Pierre Drieu la Rochelle (well-known to Kirby), though it's c. 700 pages and I know of no English translation of it. Drieu was severely wounded in WWI, later flirted with communism and with the royalist Action Francaise, but finally threw his lot in with the fascists. He committed suicide after the liberation of Paris during the first wave of extra-legal purges ("epurations") of Nazi collaborators along with others who were just convenient targets for the communists.
o my friggin god
kirby did you write somewhere that the inherited culture zeitgeist the cognitive atmosphere of political presumption and the absolutely hairbrained inclination to precocious predilections for untoward imaginitive thinking in the shape of mr potato head...saying as you have unreservedly that obama is ignorant of what said really said most edwardly what he said is right i mean the china trail the camels trod o'er dust and stone where glories of scent and color traded hands in a dust storm of excitement and possibility and books let us not forget that ancient art that inimitable activity of trading books...where was i....oh yeah
kirby i must say you are overstating the case i know this is bold of me to say so you've never been inclined to ridiculously magnify things beyond reasonable proportion before i can't imagine why you'd start now
but give it a break
or a brake
or a brayke
now that breitbart whilde farte is dead dead dead you think you have to be the voicebox for the knuckleheaded conservative platform
just remember pal
you still have to be human
obama is very human
he still steps out back and smokes a cig
i don't care how wound up the girls on the pill get
it's still an unjust society
police state light
just thought i'd throw that in
kirby kirby kirby you write such incendiary things but the viscious reight will come forth with more boldness and vituperative rhetorical smish smish i was taken a bath
how was i supposed to know there was a party goin' on
no no no no no
obama is a very smart guy
you should repeat this to youru self twelve times in a row
try saying it in other languages
santorum is genuine but
he will be eaten alive
the academic left will rip him a new rectal orifice ( can i say that here)
but obama will offer to step outside and have a cigarette even with john boehner
my suspicious thought is toward in that obama has a whole crib full of white skin sushy pink naughty underwear hOze
in some polynesian hotel complex
and these girls are actually doing the footwork for his foreign policy...he's putting these smart beautiful sexy well dressed european monied trash slut HOZe to good work they're are hilary's legion forces and obama is their king
this is the sort of social arrangement we are talking about where the woman concede that a really powerful loin trumpeter man is in charge and the sex hungry women bow down to him and do foreign policy like baking a cake
and having lots and lots of children
stop the pill
jh
there is nowhere
My dad was on an aircraft carrier in N. Korean conflict. They had sonar not radar and the planes had no clue and they often landed in the sea. Ker-splash, takin' a bath. Many sonar operators cracked up, but my dad tried hard not to laugh. He did as best he could. Radar was a big advance.
Breitbart had an amazing quote in WSJ last night. He was a Democrat until a few years ago then shifted with a vengeance. He said if the Democrats were still a party of Evan Bayh and Lieberman types he'd still be with them, but now it's the party of Alec Baldwin and all they want to manufacture now is sententious putdowns of American life.
Where we used to be great is in terms of standards. All across the country everything was standardized and the same. It was a terrific strength. But the Dems are busy morphing every standard and creating absolute chaos.
Even poetry is no longer standardized. What is a stanza? It's a runon sentence. What is an image? It's a blur. What is an idea? It's something evil.
The Bible used to be standardized, but the Dems are even working on that, can't agree on anything. God is that and this and the other thing, or else he doesn't even exist. God, the last guarantee of an International Standard of Organization, is getting changed by the generation of 68 who have yet to get God into sandals and grooving at Woodstock, but they're working on it.
I insist we go back to the 1550s and start over.
OK i'm with you
1550
the benedictines are busy archiving everything
the jesuits are just revving up taking education and wisdom and beauty to the world with the exploreres...let's give them another chance let's let them run all the school systems in the world
let the jesuits do it they will do it right
if you want something codified for posterity you take it to the benedictines otherwise printing and publishing should be astronomical out of reach for almost everyone
if something is published it is given first class treatment
people can write stuff they just can't always get it published...ever
you kirb my brother my dear brother kirby i'd like to see you with oprah...the two of you talk truth to one another
you must look to the social table spread the protestant world laid out in order to come to terms with secularist agendas the catholics stood aside from all that long ago
the modernists are the ones who so innocently horrify
and we've known that and we've known that it grows in protestant soil
those toxic plants are hybrids from the inane and sustained reactions of protestant ignorance and belligerance...and i may be hearing things but it sounds to me like most of them are shouting out loud ..."we like our distrust of the world of beauty and hope those silly roman catholics put together...who needs the church we have hollywood we have distraction and glitz galore we have superabundance of superficial crap in your face we have more than the church ever gave us to hell with christendom..." o no OK they don't go that far but they almost say it
it s' the long reaction don't you know the long reaction that has led to the humanist pragmatists rationalists relativist reductionist simplistic complication of modern nose to nose stupidity
no wonder olympia snow has bowed out
that's somehow sadder than breitbart's death
voices of reason and collaboration saying
to hell with it all
surely the second coming is at hand
santorum should admit
he's a bad catholic like the rest of us
then maybe he will save face
in the catholic realm
or else it's...
he should run on the bad catholic platform
it's less volatile
than the good good goody two shoes variety catholic plank
does anyone hear a whole pack of coyotes
to everything turn turn turn
jh
Drieu la Rochelle was a close friend of many of the surrealists, too. I haven't read Gilles. The only book I've read was a Diary that he kept while on the lam after Vichy fell and the authorities were looking for him to put him on trial as a Quisling. It's a neat book. He said he thought the German would become more like the Brits under the pressure of war. It seems to me that the French weren't thinking well after World War I. Maybe their better minds were killed. They seem so illogical. Maginot is almost a kind of magic thinking instead of logical thinking.
But some border is better than no border. I have no idea why Obama has abandoned our southern border. Perhaps it's because he is himself an illegal immigrant. I wouldn't know. Sheriff Arpaio says so!
The anarchists want the borders to collapse.
They want the laws to collapse.
They want the economy to collapse.
They think this will make for a better world.
It's illogical, just as Drieu La Rochelle's thinking (or later, Youcenar's) was illogical. Illogic can be enchanting in a nonsense poem. It isn't when the president of your country is Mugabe or this new son of Kim Jung-Il. To keep people in the country he's now killing all members of a family up until the third generation. We thought the Red Queen was mad.
This Red King is even worse.
Let's get a sense of people's political identities again. I always come out as a centrist:
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz_result?e=70&i=40_70.gif&p=40
jh's remarks about smoking politicians call to mind another casualty of WWI and one of my favourite modern German writers of the 20th c., Ernst Juenger (I don't have diacriticals on this machine yet) born in 1895. He began smoking when he was eleven, joined the French Foreign Legion at 16, was later a lieutenant in the German army (volunteered for commando duty; 8 times wounded and with 3 others received Germany's highest war decoration--penned his war memoirs, "Storms of Steel, or Stahlgewittern," to launch his literary career, became a well-known naturalist and entomologist, was offered the headship of the German writers union in the 1930s (which he refused along with Nazi Party membership, though he established a philosophical friendship with Heidegger and remained a right-wing nationalist all his long life), wrote a novel-length anti-Hitler allegory ("On the Marble Cliffs," or "Auf den Marmorklippen") that was actually published in Germany in 1939 before he was under Gestapo suspicion and was banned from writing (I got my 1939 Hamburg edition, Kirby, from the free shelves at the Blue Moon Tavern in Seattle), served as captain during the German occupation of Paris, where he "nobbed" with Picasso and Cocteau (and once, when Allied planes were strafing the street at which he was sitting drinking his aperitif and others around him were scattering for cover, stood up and raised his glass for a minute's tribute to the pilots who were strafing the street and cafe), was banned from publishing in Germany by the British for 4 years for refusing "denazification" since he never joined the party, was an avid mountaineer who also dabbled in drugs, including psychedelics, as literary experiments, continued smoking and writing works that would easily have gained him a Nobel if it weren't for his politics (which caused his works to be banned in France until 1977, whereupon he won a prestigious French literary prize), achieved 50 books and countless stories and essays, and at last converted to Catholicism one year before his death . . . in 1998 in his 103rd year. Perhaps one of his greatest achievements was to have been A SMOKER FOR OVER 90 YEARS!
hey jadl
did ernst request a last puff before he died
i mean was it the last thing
the last pleasure just one last puff before i go
i know that sounds a bit german romantic
but think of it
get the picture
this old guy and all he really wants is just one last puff
maybe he got it maybe he didn't
i hope if i live to be that old someone will have the wherewithall to give me my last request yes just one last little puff there we goo coff coff uhmph slobber fart that's it...............
good story...sounds almost mythical like a bastard offspring of prester john or something
jh
That summary of Junger's life amazed. Soupault fell short of Junger by 10 years and died at 93. Or 92. He was six months short of his birthday which fell on August 2, the day WWI started. Soupault was violently anti-nationalist and felt that that was the way forward. But he also smoked and chainsmoked for most of his life. He had to have his vocal cords removed at age 90 and yet kept smoking. Egads. He drank and smoked in his final years and listened to the radio. Somehow everyone ends up the same towards the end from that time. Smoking drinking, and Soupault had even begun to read the Bible. I don't know how seriously he took it. This is hopped over in the biography. It just said that he did. When his third wife committed suicide all his stuff was in her name, and her American family seized all of it and left him destitute living in a cheap hotel and in rags, apparently. He couldn't even go in and get his clothing. I think he recovered to an extent. This area of time (1964 to 1990) is still rather vague and is dependent on a few scraps of information I've heard here and there. Maybe he dressed like a bum because he had lost his interest in life, or was internally focused. Earlier on he generally looked spiffy. Even in the Tunisian prison he always wore a suit. Is death a formality?
JH, why did Christ have to die? Why culdn't he live with us and make things clear all the time, commenting from time to time like the Pope? He could be huge like he is in Revelation, and just go ahead and kill people that aren't acting right like a huge Superman. He could tell us straight up whether abortion, gay marriage, two spouses, masturbation, and all the other stuff is now ok. Plus he could make popcorn.
I finally got around to reading the link Stu provided in the first comment. Gosh its been such a busy week. One of the problems with the data is that many true faith groups push marriage as the precondition for any kind of sexuality, which means people get the certificate in order to do the deed. Having done the deed for several years and having the kids with it, they may then realize theyve married a colossal clodhopper, which would indicate divorce. Meanwhile, I suspect many atheists never even get married. Why would they. So if you were never married why would you get a divorce. In the TV series Friends or in Seinfeld for instance the atheists go through dozens of partners without even thinking about marriage. I suppose when the atheists do get married its because there is something else going on besides just sex. It might mean a job, or it might mean a family connection. Asian Americans have a very high marriage and staying together rate which is another way of breaking this down: by race or ethnicity or culture. I heard once that thereis 2% divorce rate. Asians are going 50-50 Republican and Democrat. Many Asians are also Protestant Christians with Vietnamese probably the only major Catholic group. Most American Chinese or Chinese Americans are pretty serious Christians -- as inJeremy Lin. Japanese Americans are probably the least likely to be Christian, but tradition and family ties would hold them together perhaps. Korean americans, Samoans, Filinos, etc. could all be studied. I'm sure we'd learn something about which we could argue. Asians have never had a major contender for the presidency just as they have never had a big NBA star until Lin. Yao Ming was a big star but he wasn't American. He broke his foot I think, anhd is hobbling aroundin China trying to stay away from the wheels of rickshaws.
Yao Min was a kind of walking beanstalk, but then so are many members of the NBA. The tallest man in the world is Chinese. He's over 8 ft. tall. But they say he hasn't mastered the crossover dribble.
hey, jh, your post about an aged smoking choking Juenger made me laugh several times--good show!
In his Counterblaste to Tobacco" of 1604 James I of England took an ever-so-slightly less jocular view of what he called "that foul stinking Indian weed":
"Have you not reason then to be ashamed and to forbear this filthy novelty, so basely grounded, so foolishly received and so grossly mistaken in the right use thereof. In your abuse thereof sinning against God harming yourselves both in person and goods, and raking also thereby the marks and notes of vanity upon you by the custom thereof making yourselves to be wondered at by all foreign civil nations and by all strangers that come among you to be scorned and held in contemp; a custom loathsome to the eye, hateful to the nose, harmful to the brain, dangerous to the lungs, and in the black stinking fume thereof nearest resembling the horrible stygian smoke of the pit that is bottomless."
kirby your vision of jesus the jesus who forswears death is not healthy at all get that idea out of your mind no the message is
he took part in the most dreadful experience we know although it down't always have to be dreadful but the other thing and we can't stress this enough is that christ trumped death he went beyond death he defied death he made himself by the power of something very amazing to outdo death...uit's opowerful yo it's something else
and jesus does chew on popcorn of course
and the bumble bees know him by scent
no he is alive
je sui en l'vivre inexplicable
you've got to admit santorum is coming off a little too clean i mean in order to play in this game you have to know some dirtball stuff some spit ball it's american politics for godz sake it's a mishmash media circus gambit
i mean he's got to be goofballish he's got to be a jock he's got to be a good business guy he's got to be the hapless prophet of a new possibility and i simply happen to think everyone is too konked out from watching too much tv to care
i'm presently exploring people with native american blood who went back to france
the american nightmare
jh
Jesus as a portly, wisdom dispensing pontifical would be interesting. Of course, that would represent the ascendancy of the Law over the Gospel. And that would surely be a misery. It's not as if we're good at doing the right thing even when we know it. Well, that's me at any rate.
I took your test, Kirby and came out pretty darn libertarian. Perhaps a bit more than I really want to be, but I can live with it. http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz_result?e=100&i=70_100.gif&p=70
Picklesworth! OMG. Hey, does this mean you support Ron Paul?
How goeth it with your ministry?
Picklesworth is back; well met, good fellow!
Pastor Picklesworth, so happy you've returned; well met, good fellow!
i took the test
i'm a centrist leaning left
but i am strictly antiabortion
anti-chemical birthcontrol
govt. should look out for the little guy
and we need a lot more leisure in this country
tobacco is good for you
not separation of church and state strictly but a recognized mutual acceptance and regard...the govt. should know by now but obviously it doesn't that the catholic church always explores the moral high ground
obama at least is trying to listen to the catholics it's realy hard when all these hallucinating reprorights girls are screaming their lungs out
jh
Kirby, I'm sympathetic to much of Paul's platform, but something holds me back just a bit. And that's the whole temptation to swoop in and "fix" everything by slashing this program, cutting that one, putting that gov't agency in the dustbin and so on. I'd like for all of those things to happen, but my basic conservatism suggests that it cannot be a quick fix made possible by one election. It needs to be done prudently, with confirmation coming from continuing electoral support. I'm not suggesting that Paul would go to D.C. like a berserker with a machete, but those who suggest such an approach are certainly his supporters.
Ministry is going very well. A particular highlight was baptizing our baby daughter Abigail this past month, but weekly preaching is also quite a ride. (Confirmation, on the other hand, is just plain hard!)
Monsieur DeLater, a tip of the hat to you.
W.B.
Great to see you back here. Hope you'll stick around.
pontifical
from : pontifex
builder of bridges
If Christ came back or were present to pontificate on this and that (abortion, gay marriage, birth control in particular) I suppose the left would just have to kill him all over again. But what if he was so big he unkillable! What if he was the size of a skyscraper and had skin like a hundred feet of pure steel? We could have a dictatorship of God. And the leftists would dream of assassinating Him all night long.
Got any kryptonite?
Kirby,
If Christ came back or were present to pontificate on this and that (abortion, gay marriage, birth control in particular) I suppose the left would just have to kill him all over again.
Some quibbles.
1) If Jesus comes back, it's not pontification, it's epiphany. Unless, of course, you're an Arian, rather than a Trinitarian.
2) I don't believe it makes sense to retroject the current left/right dichotomy onto the divisions of Jesus's day. In particular, I think it is fairer (both historically and theologically) to note that Jesus was killed by the Romans, which is to say by the military forces of an occupying dictatorship. The touchier question theologically is Jewish involvement in Jesus's death. The Gospel writers took some pains to implicate the Sadducees and Pharisees, the former being collaborationists (quislings, in more modern invective), and the later being legal rigorists (a tithe of mint, anyone?). The Sadducees and Pharisees loathed one another, so it's a bit hard to see them getting together on anything. About the only common denominator is that they were the elites of Judean society -- the 1%-ers of their day -- but this is not an analogy that I'd care to push.
3) Why would the left want to kill Jesus? You thought he was just joking about that Sermon on the Mount and love your neighbor stuff?
He said all the old laws are still in force, and they weren't going away in favor of some kind of anarchist free for all. Also, he never said people don't have to work for a living. Or that the work would now be a bunch of easy sinecures where you have to only put a stamp on an envelope and wait for your check and foodstamps. Jesus would really piss people off today. Where's my check? Where are my sexual supplies? I want to have sex! And oh yes, I need an abortion. Also, take care of my STDs. Make the government do this right now, and forget about children with Lupus. OK? Now get on the stick, Buster. Jesus might go Zeus and start thrownig LIGHTNING bolts as he almost does in Revelation. It would be one revelation after another. All bad. Revelation trumps the sermon on the mount. He would get on his mount and give people a sermon on horseback kind of treating all the goofups like a madman playing polo with heads. Tough love, is what he meant, while on the mount.
Jesus Christ -The Second Coming. 'He's back and he's pissed.'
(coming soon to theatres!)
or:
Robo-Christ. 'Crime just got dangerous.'
I think we make a terrible mistake when we identify Jesus with the Law, whether the Sermon on the Mount or Rightwing Cultural Warrior.
Jesus is God revealed, God's graciousness given, not Moses on steroids. Jesus is no ethics teacher; he is a redeemer. That isn't to say that the law is unimportant, it's just penultimate.
Kirby,
He said all the old laws are still in force, and they weren't going away in favor of some kind of anarchist free for all.
Context, Kirby, context. The passage you're thinking of is Matthew 5:18, which is a part of the Sermon on Mount.
Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17–20 NRSV)
Note, first of all, that Jesus does not come to abolish the law or the prophets. You tend to forget the later, and their claim for a just society. Recall that, when Jesus was asked to give the greatest commandment, he answered with a precis of the law:
One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:28–31 NRSV)
Indeed, I claim that Mark 12:29-31 is the law; the rest, all the rest, is commentary. This isn't to deny the rest, commentary matters. It teaches us to understand and reason about the law. But whether we choose to reason about the law from Jesus's principles, or by force-fitting modern ethical questions into a three-thousand year old scriptural context, human sin enters in. This is why we need to continue testing our understanding of the law, against scripture, against one another, and against future revelation.
Also, he never said people don't have to work for a living.
True. But he also never said that you should store your treasures up on earth, either. Instead, he told parables about faith and love. The prodigal son was not the hero of the eponymous parable, but then, neither was his older brother. The hero was the father, who acted to re-establish the social and familial bonds that both sons had broken. It seems to me that you're auditioning for the role of older brother. Is that really the role you want?
Revelation trumps the sermon on the mount.
That's a unique theological misunderstanding. If you believe that, you don't understand either.
WB,
I think we make a terrible mistake when we identify Jesus with the Law, whether the Sermon on the Mount or Rightwing Cultural Warrior.
I could not agree more. I have an icon over my desk of Christ Pantocrator. It is an ancient image, but one that still serves us well. Entirely by coincidence, the left side of the image is a gracious Jesus, with an open expression, and his right hand raised in a traditional sign of the Trinity, the right side of the image is of Jesus as judge, holding a book of the law. Gospel and Law, distinct, but co-equal.
Lutherans are perhaps unique in their emphasis on law and gospel as distinct but inseparable, but we see this not as our particular property, but instead as a core Christian message.
"In the New Testament, Pantokrator is used once by Saint Paul (2 Cor 6:18). Aside from that one occurrence, the author of the Book of Revelation is the only New Testament author to use the word Pantokrator. The author of Revelation uses the word nine times,[3] and while the references to God and Christ in Revelation are at times interchangeable, Pantokrator appears to be reserved for God alone."
This would be the Jesus I want: smashing Satan, creaming sinners, and policing the world in the end time. An absolute giant, with a beard the length of several football fields, and each strand at least as strong as the Roebling cables on the Brooklyn Bridge.
Kirby,
Cool. What's your source?
FWIW, I can verify this: ĻανĻοκĻαĻĻĻ (Almighty) occurs in 2 Cor 6:18, Rev 1:8, Rev 4:8, Rev 11:17, Rev 15:3, Rev 16:7, Rev 16:14, Rev 19:6, Rev 19:15, and Rev 21:22. Six of the nine are in poetic contexts, per the NRSV typography.
That said, it occurs 181 times in the LXX. It is an Old Testament kind of word.
Anyway, it's a fun set of verses to play “Name that Hymn” with.
Kirby,
Regarding this:
This would be the Jesus I want: smashing Satan, creaming sinners, and policing the world in the end time. An absolute giant, with a beard the length of several football fields, and each strand at least as strong as the Roebling cables on the Brooklyn Bridge.
This is pretty much the Messiah the Jews were looking for, too. But this is not the Messiah that came, the Messiah we worship.
The source is Wikipedia, under the title Christ Pantokrator. It might be a c in Pantocrator.
Since God can do anything He wants including arrive as Christ, why couldnt he come back as a giant Robocop, as our friend Picklesworth says. Instead of coming as a vulnerable man and using guilt against the Romans, why not show as big as a skyscraper with metal hair and steel legs, and just smash down all the people he disagrees with and put them in hell. That would clarify things, which would be a virtue. Plus we woiuldnƤt have to guess at the meaning of what he said.
Are you for or against abortion. Are you for or against gay marriage. Do you like the Muslims and are they covered under your covenant or not. Do you think communism is the best economic system or do you think its Smithian free markets.
Who knows. Perhaps its fun to debate this stuff. But we go around and around. If he was to appear in the form of a skyscraper, and simply boomed away, we could get some definitive answers. If he killed me for one of my poor interpretations, I would accept it.
What else could I do.
Just because he came once as the vulnerable feller, doesnƤt mean he wouldnƤt come back as John of Patmos says he would or will. I hope he comes back right now and clarifies things with a giant club, as an enormous human tank, with a will of its own, and with some answers. Since he can, why doesnt He.
IƤm on a tiny machine and cant find quesiton marks or apostrophes or a lot of other punctuation marks. ItƤs set to Finnish.
Stu, this is true and is a good point. But is it possible that He could come again in a different format, and with different rules of engagement? Revelation appears to posit that that will be the next step.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI
i do this so rarely
but here's to instant viewing
jh
Kirby,
Stu, this is true and is a good point. But is it possible that He could come again in a different format, and with different rules of engagement?
Of course. God will do what God will do.
Revelation appears to posit that that will be the next step.
I believe this is a mistaken reading of Revelation.
Stu, could you give a reason why you think this is a "mistaken reading"?
1:16: And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength"
Then, in red ink, 2:16: "Repent, or else I will come into thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."
I think this means he will clarify what is meant, but it may also have a miltary sense.
Again, in red ink: 2:23 " I will kill her children [the children of Jezebel] with death"
How much clearer does he need to be?
9:6 "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to death shall flee from them."
20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
This is the image of Robocop who will cleanse the earth of sinners before the advent of the New Jerusalem. 1"7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they ALSO which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him."
JH, I watched your video about how people who have abortions are followers of Hitler. I liked it, and liked how he tried to evangelize young people and was at least partially successful. That was very pleasant to see. It's hard to remember that a message can get through the thick heads and harder hearts of people especially if it's a good message.
Kirby,
Stu, could you give a reason why you think this is a "mistaken reading"?
Not a reason. The book of Revelation is too complex for that. But I can give you many.
Let's start with the chapters 1-5, in which a Jesus pronounces words of judgment, but also of succor and encouragement to the seven churches of Asia Minor. You fixate on the words of judgment, but this distorts the message, and its almost formulaic balance.
Consider, for example, the complete message to the church at Ephesus: “I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance. I know that you cannot tolerate evildoers; you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them to be false. I also know that you are enduring patiently and bearing up for the sake of my name, and that you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Yet this is to your credit: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches. To everyone who conquers, I will give permission to eat from the tree of life that is in the paradise of God. (Revelation 2:2–7 NRSV)
There is praise (I know your works...), condemnation (you have abandoned the love you had at first...), with the threat of judgment (do the works you did at first ... or I will remove your lampstand) and the promise of reward (To everyone who conquers, I will give permission to eat from the tree of life). This structure is repeated with variations for the remaining six churches, speaking with insight and passion into the particular circumstances of each.
You bring up Jezebel of Thyatira, a false, fornicating prophetess who had somehow worked her way into the church. Clearly, she is condemned along with her followers, yet at the same time, the Church of Thyatira (the real object of the prophesy) is also praised for its works, its love, its growth in both, and those who have not fallen under Jezebel are praised for their faithfulness, and no further burden is laid on them.
As for "red ink," this is not a feature of scripture per se, but is instead an interpretative device added by modern publishers to some editions of the Bible.
The passage from 9:6 occurs in a complex, interconnected two scene passage, with worship crecendoing into silence in heaven (including "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation" 7:9), and catastrophies falling on earth on those who did not give up worshipping false gods, or repent of the works of their hands (something for everyone: murder, sorcery, fornication, theft, 9:20-21).
As for 20:15, it is not the living who are cast into the lake of fire, but the dead who are not in the book of life. Verses 20:12-13 provide the context you missed.
It is easy to misinterpret these passages as foretelling a rending -- the good go to heaven, eternally separated from the evil who are left to eternal torment on a damaged, corrupted earth. Yet the climax of Revelation is arguably the poem 21:3-4:
“See, the home of God is among mortals.
He will dwell with them as their God;
they will be his peoples,
and God himself will be with them;
he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.”
The vision is not of robocop, nor of eternal torment for the evil. It is of God in control, of the inevitability of God's triumph, through the blood of the slaughtered Lamb, who restores and reconciles the earth and God's people to God, as revealed to the Christians of Asia Minor under Roman persecution.
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
I should have said, "are LIKE followers of Hitler," but this wouldn't really be an exact parallel because Hitler killed the Jews out of hatred, whereas most people who get abortions don't hate their babies. they just see the abortion as getting rid of an untimely and unplanned for and perhaps inconvenient event. Hate to nitpick, but they do seem both alike and unlike.
human being=human being
i'm just worried about who has the upper moral hand who gets to wield the whip of the law who gets to sanction who gets to legislate who gets to
this killin babies thing has turned a quagmire into a swirling cesspit of moral conundrum...i don't know where to go with it...it looks like a terrible horrible aberration not one even the evolutionists would not have guessed
science fiction becomes us
or science friction yeah that becomes us more
who will be the last person to have no dna code...i mean can they literally tag everyone?
golly gee whiz sometimes ron paul sounnds pretty reasonable
misplaced liberties misplaced values misplaced laws that suck sense out of liberties and whole money rackett to keep it float
who woulda thunk it
what sort of music do most economists listen to...sattellite of course
i gotta go
jh
jh
Stu, I prefer Robocop, as it's simpler but I admit it's not as beautiful. To Picklesworth and Dim Lamp and JEP among others -- is Stu right?
Kirby,
"Is Stu Right?" I would agree with most of what he wrote. I might depart at the end where what he wrote sounded like an endorsement of universalism, though I may have misunderstood his intention. (Stu, care to clarify?)
Certainly Jesus as Robocop undermines the foundations of incarnation and atonement. God becoming man in order to blow us away seems... really strange, not to mention contradictory to scripture.
It is neither here nor there but Elaine Pagels (Gnostic Gospels) has a new book out on Revelation and argues that John is arguing against Christianity and for Jesus as remaining within the Jewish sphere, and that Revelation is an attack on Pauline attempts at widening the faith. I haven't read the book but only a three page review in this month's New Yorker by Adam Gopnik. Pagels was supposed to be on NPR's Fresh Air this afternoon but I must have missed it. I don't think Revelation said He would blow us away. He would blow the BAD PEOPLE away. We're not the bad people. We're the good people. Or I would assume everyone reading it would assume they were among the good people and the bad people were those other people down the road apiece who play their music too loud and have taken thei exhaust pipes off their cars in order to amplify the carburator or whatever that noise is. I don't mind it when people look horrible, but when they're loud it's the worst. Hell I suppose would be a library where the monitors told you to whisper all the time for some people. For me, that would be my idea of heaven.
WB,
I might depart at the end where what he wrote sounded like an endorsement of universalism, though I may have misunderstood his intention. (Stu, care to clarify?)
I'm not sure what particular passage you're referring to. If it is the "great multitude that no one could count, from every nation," this is a verbatim quote of Rev 7:9, and so your argument isn't with me, it's with the author of the Apocalypse. I don't believe my quote misrepresented the author's intent.
Can you be more specific?
WB,
Oh. "At the end." Gotcha. Sorry.
I think your question is over how universal is "God's people." I don't pretend to know. That's God's call. But I think it is clear from the earlier passages that it includes members of all nations, if not all nations in their entirety.
Stu, then I can sign on to what you said in its entirety. I hope for all to be saved, even those who play their music loud in the library, but I have a big problem with the theological proposition that it is so. As you say, we can't pretend to know. What we can do is give the good news to actual people with ears to hear.
Many of the liberals no longer believe in the lake of fire or believe that only those who aren't universalist will end up in it (the crime of intolerance).
Stu is very close to a universalist.
He not only believes that God is all-loving but that he accepts other groups' Gods as referring to Himself.
On the other hand you have Billy Graham saying that the Mormons for instance are not Christians. Mormons do have Jesus, but I guess he means that this figure is either not large enough in their denomination or else has such a different slant that it is no longer recognizable to him as true Christianity.
Jesus comes to North American after he's done at Gethsemane and preaches to the Iriquois among others, I think, in Mormonism. You get paintings of Jesus among headfeathers in Mormon churches whereas most Lutheran churches just have a frontal portrait of Jesus looking all hippie like with sentiment in the hallways or the foyers somewhere.
But Stu actually believes that Muslims are worshipping the same God.
Now I know that Billy Graham wouldn't accept that notion. I'm not sure where the line is, but everybody seems to place it differently.
Do we have a quorum at this point among the 1200+ denominations of American Christianity on the Muslim question?
Being a rather Provincial Lutheran in a small congregation in a rural area I often don't know the line, and although my pastor I'm sure does I don't want to bother him with every leetle thought running through my head.
Is the Muslim God congruent with Our Own?
Buddhists don't worship God, but I imagine that Stu would think that some of them will be saved, too. The Dolly Llama, for instance. He's a pretty nice guy. Will he be saved?
Or will he be thrown into the lake of fire?
I've now had a couple of comments that haven't gone through.
Stu, brief synopsis. With your clarification I can say that I agree with what you wrote. Though I do hope that everyone might be saved, to assert that this will happen is abstraction, not good news.
Kirby, you're confusing politics with theology. And no, the Dalai Lama will not be saved because he is a nice guy. Your comment is loaded with rubbish and abstraction, which is quite contrary to Lutheran theology. "Blessed are the feet of the one who brings good news." For such a one declares God's promises, not in theory, not to people in general, but to you. The rest is hocus pocus and twaddle. Does God save Mormons or Muslims? Hell if I know. What I know is this: he has commissioned his followers to deliver good news, which is that Jesus Christ has died for sinners and you are just such a one. Repent and believe the promise you were given in baptism.
I usually look at my inbox and if I see something new, I always add it. But sometimes comments are added to the bottom of old comments and aren't highlighted. So then I have to look up in unmoderated comments, and then I see the ones that haven't gone through. Sometimes they end up in yet another basket, too, which is Spam. I found the new ones by Picklesworth however in the unmoderated.
Kirby,
A few things...
Stu is very close to a universalist.
It depends on what you think a universalist is.
Like Paul, I believe that knowledge of God is available to all people:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools; and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. (Romans 1:18–23 NRSV)
Paul's passage reveals that this "universal" knowledge of God is a double-edged sword. For I do not believe that God has created a world in which some men are doomed to hell because of accidents of birthplace/time meant ignorance of God. God reveals himself to all. But if all men have knowledge of God, then all men are justly subject to his judgment. No one is predestined to heaven or hell, what we do with our lives matters.
I suppose if I were to reduce this to a sound bite, it would be, "God always speaks, but man does not always listen."
He not only believes that God is all-loving but that he accepts other groups' Gods as referring to Himself.
As Christians, we accept the Hebrew Scriptures as part of our scripture. Our God is the Jewish God. And Islam, like Christianity, also believes its God to be the same as the God of the Jews. We are all "People of the Book," as the Muslims say, i.e., people who accept the Hebrew Scriptures. There is a very strong historical sense in which Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God.
That said, the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim understandings of the nature of that one God differ in important ways. Jews and Muslims misunderstand Trinitarian belief, and suspect us of polytheism. Their understanding of God is much more judgmental (Kirbiesque?, lots of law, not so much gospel) than the Christian understanding, and also (especially in the case of Islam) much more remote. The evangelical notion of a "personal relationship with God" sounds almost like blasphemy to a Muslim, who understands God as a remote law-giver and judge.
Once you get outside of the People of the Book, any sort of strong equivalence breaks down. I would not, e.g., try to construct either a historical or theological equivalence between the Christian and Vedic Trinities. But I would go so far as to say that I believe that the Vedic religious system is a human response to the one true God, albeit considerably more muddled than ours.
But there is no equivalence. God established a special relationship with the people of Israel: to be God's chosen priesthood. They were to be his holy people. Christianity has also taken on this role. The essential difference is that while Jews seek to be a holy people, we seek to make other peoples holy too.
Two more quick points:
Mormons are not Christians, because their Christology is not Trinitarian. In particular, they believe that Jesus's divinity is distinct from God the Creator's divinity, and moreover, that we as mortals can aspire to the same sort of divinity that Jesus has. Perhaps they're People of the Book, but I'm not so sure. At the end of the day, they are hierarchical polytheists, not monotheists.
And maybe it's time to turn off moderation of comments. I recognize the tradeoffs, but I'm suspecting that the you'd be better served with them off right now. You can easily turn them back on if things get too hot, or if there are disruptive comments.
With J basically gone for now, I turned off the comments moderation. You have to have a google account, but other than that, anyone can comment. Also, on posts older than 14 days, I will still moderate so that nothing nefarious slips by. Some people still judge a blog by its comments. If they get too awful, I will turn it off again.
Kirby,
Some people still judge a blog by its comments. If they get too awful, I will turn it off again.
This seems exactly right to me.
The question of whether other religious groups worship the same God or not is certainly interesting, but I'm not sure how it pertains either to our ethics or our soteriology.
In the case of ethics, we are to treat others as the one who is hungry, thirsty, in jail... whether they worship the same God or not. And Jews would certainly agree with this (the Torah is rather insistent about the sojourner getting good treatment.) My knowledge of Islam is limited, but I think that they do make a distinction between People of the Book and others that informs their ethical treatment of them.
Soteriology isn't quite as clear. Certainly it is the Christian confession that it is only through Christ that one is saved. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me." But I don't think one can ignore that promises were given to the Hebrews. Paul certainly wrestles with this in Romans 12. And Muslims, it is traditionally understood, have descended from Ishmael who also received a promise. So God has established relationships with others that we should never discount.
That said, the nature of those relationships remains unclear within the Christian confession about salvation. It must remain something where we can only say, "Lord have mercy."
Now I would not
WB,
I like the soteriology crack. It definitely divides the insiders from the outsiders.
I'll tell you how I deal with the apparent conflict between John 14:6, "No one comes to the Father except through me," and apparently more inclusive descriptions of the saved, which also have scriptural support, e.g., Romans 11:26, "And so all Israel will be saved." I don't claim that there is just one solution, nor that the solution that I prefer is correct. Only that I prefer it, and I consider it to be consistent and beautiful in its own right.
I read John 14:6 as talking about instrumentality. It talks about Jesus, personally, as the agent of salvation. It does not talk about belief or religion. Thus, there is no problem with believing that there are Jews (both ancient and modern) who will be part of the company of heaven, since Jesus as a person can be the instrument of bringing a person who has not worshipped him to the Father. If at our judgment, Jesus tells us, "Come with me, and I will take you to the Father," are we saved by him, or by our faith, which is to say, our trust that he will keep the promise he just made? And in either case, what is to prevent him from asking the same question of someone who did not worship him? If that person says "yes," are they saved by Jesus, or by their faith, which is to say, their trust in the promise he just made? And in any of these cases, is John 14:6 contradicted?
Stu,
I like that you bring up instrumentality, which was in the back of my mind. I try to hold two things together: that God is faithful to his promises and that he is sovereign. This enables me to declare forgiveness and the promise of salvation to those in my congregation and saves me from thinking that I can make pronouncements about other folks. It's much better to reside in the concrete, "God forgives you" than in the abstract, "God is forgiving (but to whom?)" I am absolutely confident in the former, because of promises he has given, whereas the latter raises all kinds of issues.
WB,
I try to hold two things together: that God is faithful to his promises and that he is sovereign.
An excellent principle, and a nice way of saying it.
Picklesworth, stu, and Kirby, what's your various "takes" on the Origenist controversy/heresy in relation to soteriology?
JADL, could you remind me what's at stake here? Origen castrated himself, I believe. That's all I remember about him from my Gnostic Gospels class in Comparative Religion at the UW. Wasn't he some kind of half-Gnostic?
JADL, could you remind me what's at stake here? Origen castrated himself, I believe. That's all I remember about him from my Gnostic Gospels class in Comparative Religion at the UW. Wasn't he some kind of half-Gnostic?
JADL,
I can't say that I know much about it. I've just taken a quick browse on the interwebs and it sounds like he believed, or at least suggested the possibility of, a progressive purification of all of creation to the point when all would be saved, even Satan himself. Is this fairly summarized?
I think soteriology is best in the second person direct address. That is the form in which promises can actually be given, directly into someone's ears, which is important since faith comes by hearing. This form assumes the bound will and yet gives the promise of God, trusting that it will perform what it says.
Trying to determine salvation outside of direct promise-giving is, at the very least, a hazardous business. Could it happen? Yes, of course. For God is sovereign over all, subject to nothing. However, it is not giving God's promises (what we have been bidden to do by the Great Commission, for example) ; instead it is talking about them in the abstract. Does the promise ungiven avail for anything? Does God's word which does not fall on the earth, but remains unspoken, accomplish its purpose? I wouldn't preach against it, for his thoughts are higher than my thoughts, but I certainly could not and would not testify to its truth.
I thought he believed that everything was evil down here and he castrated himself because of the Gnostic notion that children perpetuate evil. They read the long lists of lineages as a kind of fall into time.
Origen castrated himself to put a stop to all that.
So he basically thought everything down here was evil?
Just for the record, I'm against auto-castration. And the world isn't just evil; it is also good. Of course, many in the early church, including the former Manichee Augustine, felt that way. Nevertheless they were wrong. Just like chopping of one's bits is wrong. Bob Barker notwithstanding.
JADL,
I'm mostly listening myself, not being particularly well informed about Origen. To prepare this note, I read through the introduction to Origen's work in the Ante-Nicene Fathers, and the discussion of his theology in the Yale-Anchor Bible Dictionary. Hardly deep scholarship, but probably better than scanning Wikipedia. The YABD treatment of Origen's theology is particular helpful: concise, but detailed and coherent.
Origen's theory of the divine includes three persons, but the Logos (Son) and Spirit were conceived by and are subordinate to the Father. This seems well within Ante-Nicene Christian consensus. Kirby noted evidence of this in Revelation, and I believe this view is also evident in Paul's writings.
Origen's view of man was based on his particular theory of souls, as having been created with the Logos, but which lost their ardent love for God, and who are materialized on God's good creation, which arrested their fall. Our experience of life is both a punishment for sin, and an opportunity to turn back to God, or to continue our descent into Hell.
The explicit soteriology here seems to boil down to an opportunity God has provided for us in this life, and our choice as to what to do with that opportunity. As least as regards this life, this is not so far from the classical Reformation formula of "salvation by faith through grace."
But Origen goes on to speculate the existence of many worlds -- an almost Hindu cycle of reincarnation into good creations intended to arrest our descent, and give us the opportunity to rekindle our ardent love for the Father. Through this, he hopes that even Satan might eventually rediscover his ardent love for the Father, and so (in our words) be saved.
My sources also make the point that much of Origen's work is lost, and what we have is mostly Latin translations whose accuracy is doubtful. There is also some thought that the most speculative (and to post-Nicene eyes, heretical) portions of Origen are among his earliest works, and many not reflect his mature thinking.
I'm much more inclined to consider (and even dabble in) theological speculation that our esteemed Picklesworth, but with the conservative caveat that requires that speculation be understood as such. In logician speak, consistency (even beautiful consistency) is not entailment, and so cannot be relied upon. Certainly, Origen's theology of the pre-existence of the soul has scant (but not utterly absent, cf. Jer 1:5) scriptural warrant, and so far as I know, his account of the after-life has none at all.
Nevertheless, I do applaud its beauty and generous instinct. His image of God is that God's love for us is so great that he will give us all sufficient opportunity to find our way back to him; while at the same time creating a world view that rewards the choice to return to God in the here-and-now. Again, there is something almost Hindu in the view that our fate/purpose is to break the cycle of reincarnation through perfecting our love of God. But I also think that his speculations are so far beyond scriptural warrant that they cannot be relied upon.
Many scholars in that epic appear to have gotten a bug from India which Alexander the Great (Aristotle's student) had visited in abut 300 BC. Gnostic speculations often remind me of both Buddhist and Hindu notions of getting off the wheel of incarnation and a denial of any beauty in this world. This also denies virtue, and is quite dangerous. Plotinus argues that beauty is here just not very much, and posits a gradation from here to heaven rather than a strictly black and white notion such that this world sucks and the world up there is perfect. This world is fallen but still has reminders of grace in it. The family is one such divin vehicle -- marriage as the only superlapsarian order. The church, too, and of course the government. There's a lot to be said for all the humanities. The sciences have helped with the American dream but I watch the SyFy channel and am not sure if they are ultimately a good thing or a bad thing.
Many scholars in that epic appear to have gotten a bug from India which Alexander the Great (Aristotle's student) had visited in abut 300 BC. Gnostic speculations often remind me of both Buddhist and Hindu notions of getting off the wheel of incarnation and a denial of any beauty in this world. This also denies virtue, and is quite dangerous. Plotinus argues that beauty is here just not very much, and posits a gradation from here to heaven rather than a strictly black and white notion such that this world sucks and the world up there is perfect. This world is fallen but still has reminders of grace in it. The family is one such divin vehicle -- marriage as the only superlapsarian order. The church, too, and of course the government. There's a lot to be said for all the humanities. The sciences have helped with the American dream but I watch the SyFy channel and am not sure if they are ultimately a good thing or a bad thing.
"to find our way back to him"
As an exhortation from scripture, (the following liturgy comes to mind, "Return to the Lord your God for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love") it is fine and dandy. It does tell us what we need to do. However, as an explanation of how things might work theologically it is grossly distorted. If only we could just return! If only we wanted to find our way back to him!
Why doesn't Satan return and be saved? Because he doesn't want to! He hates and resents God's imposition on him.
So any speculative theology that is based on the premise of our desire to return is severely flawed.
Kirby, was it Plotinus who talks of marriage as a kind of vestige of grace? I'm not familiar with him (only through Peter Brown's biography of Augustine of Hippo.)
WB,
So any speculative theology that is based on the premise of our desire to return is severely flawed.
I don't believe that Origen's premise is that we have an internal desire to return.
His argument is that our existence (I'm using "existence" technically as a word that conveys the notion that we have an identity that experiences multiple lives through multiple incarnations) began in an act of conception by the Father coincident with his conception of the Logos (Son) (cf. 1 John 1:3: See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and that is what we are.). But unlike the Logos, we've lost our ardent love of God, and willfully seek separation from him. As we attempt to run away from the Father, who is everywhere (making our efforts at separation futile), he hinders us by creating speed-bumps (lives in a good creation) to slow us down and remind us of his goodness, and paths that leads back to him (John 14:6, I am the way, and the truth, and the life.). If we make the choice to return to the Father, we will. If not, we will continue our efforts at separation, only to be hindered again and again by him. For God so loves us (and Satan too), that he'll pester us until we make the saving choice.
Just to be clear here, I'm not buying into Origen's position, which strikes me as extremely speculative, especially in that there is no scriptural warrant (so far as I'm aware) for multiple reincarnations, only for a singular resurrection. Leaving aside the speculative elements, what I find most problematic about Origen's position is that it give us too much by way of free will, and so it emphasizes our choices over God's grace, and so is confused about the agency of our salvation. We do not save ourselves, Jesus our Lord saves us.
Christian reincarnation, eh? That is a novel solution to merging free will and God's ultimate sovereignty! As you say, there's not any scriptural support for it, but it's interesting as a matter of philosophical frolicking.
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